MMA: Past Fight Discussion

[wandshogun09]

It was the absurdity with how he went from "he's fine" to "he can't see" in literally the space of one minute that really shocked me.

 

The fact he seemed more worried about the fight being stopped early than a man's vision was disturbing. And in light of how bad we know the damage was now, with Kos being on the shelf almost a year after and the stories that his eyeball could have fucking exploded with the pressure.

[Egg Shen]

interesting stuff, ill have to watch it back.

[jimufctna24]

It was the absurdity with how he went from "he's fine" to "he can't see" in literally the space of one minute that really shocked me.

 

The fact he seemed more worried about the fight being stopped early than a man's vision was disturbing. And in light of how bad we know the damage was now, with Kos being on the shelf almost a year after and the stories that his eyeball could have fucking exploded with the pressure.

He gets lost in the moment, which at times is part of his charm.

 

This time I agree, he called it wrong. I do like Joe as a person, he is at least has a energy to him and not on auto-pilot like I feel with Goldberg and Anik.

[Egg Shen]

yeh, id never want em to get rid of Rogan, i have a bitch and moan about him because there are times when he gets it very wrong, but you can't match his enthusiasm when he's announcing.

[wandshogun09]

Oh I defo wouldn't want rid of him. I am a fan of his commentary and his podcasts etc. He's a really interesting guy to listen to and not just about MMA.

 

But he does come out with some stupid shit from time to time. The dig at that referee's weight most recently for example. The GSP/Kos thing I mentioned has to be one of his lowlights.

 

I'd still rather him involved in MMA than not involved though, for sure. I've said before how important I think his role is. He doesn't get enough credit for what he does in my opinion, especially the way he explains the grappling side of things. When I started watching I wasn't into the grappling at all. Two things got me into it 1) Nick Diaz vs Diego Sanchez and 2) Rogan's commentary.

 

For a recent example, listen to him during Belcher vs Palhares, it's hard not to get caught up in his enthusiasm.

[jimufctna24]

The United States MMA BOOM 2008 -2010

 

How good really was it

 

As the sport has evolved in recent years with its business practices and fighters, a certain era with its own charm has been slowly left behind. Some of people from this era are still around as I will note, but they are a little less relevant and are no longer at the top of the sport. The time period I will work from is when the era's biggest star and figurehead Brock Lesnar first won the UFC belt in November 2008, until he lost in October 2010. This is when ratings and PPV buys started to drop, so that would pretty much cover the boom.

 

So as the sport has evolved, has MMA is America got better or worse? I will give my point of view, I would like to here yours.

 

TUF/Reality

 

 

During 2009 the Ultimate Fighter was a long running, but still fruitful series. The series that was the most commercially successful was the Kimbo series, Episode 3 drew a amazing 5.3 Million viewers for Kimbo vs Roy Nelson and the show usually drew just under 3 million a week. This was just for a reality show bare in mind.

 

The thing about it was, it did not need to do much. Rampage and Rashad hated each other (more on this later) and Kimbo brought in a lot of casuals. The only change in the format was that they did a all HW cast for the first time. It was not overproduced like TUF Live was, and was on at a time when MMA viewing was not overbearing in its schedule.

 

The quality of fighters did not matter, the show had ready-made eyeballs, the UFC should/could learn from this and put some UFC Vets with name value in a reality show in a tourney to win money (I stole that idea from someone on here I will be honest)

 

TUF was eventually going to get stale, and a new reality concept is needed. But that concept has not yet come, so by the question was it really that good in the boom period, the answer here is yes.

 

Dana Dictatorship

 

 

Lets be honest, Dana has had a monoply since 2007 when Pride folded. But from the Elite XC sale at the tail-end of 2008, Strikeforce stepped up to be number 2.

 

For my money, Strikeforce during the boom period was a solid number 2. Except the infamous Strikeforce Brawl, the promotion offered a alternative, Nick Diaz grew into a megastar, without Strikeforce he would not be as big as he was today. Fedor turned up in 2009 which gave the company a bit of validity as he had not yet lost his aura. Dan Henderson added to his legacy, and became arguably a all time great thanks to his time Strikeforce. Plus, the Gina Carono became the first female star of MMA, without her it is possible Rousey would not have had the platform to take of. King Mo also turned up, and despite injuries got the MMA world excited. The promotion had a lot going for it.

 

Strikeforce was a great alternative, its sale around 18 months ago has taken the life out of it, its no longer a alternative. Its a truism that not everyone likes how UFC present MMA, Strikeforce at least offered a different production, commentators and some world-class stars.

 

Now, Bellator is still present, but only hardcores watch it. Spike TV deal could change that, but in the boom Strikeforce offered a proper mainstream alternative that so far Bellator has not. For offering a alternative, the boom was better.

 

Fighters

 

This is a natural progression at this stage in MMA and will not take long to cover. The boom had Brock Lesnar, Lyoto Machida and BJ Penn with gold in the UFC. All these 3 as much as I like them, have been bested. In the case of BJ, you could argue that the 2009 version would beat any LW of today, and you could argue other variables with the other 2. But, its a fact of nature with the sport so young and the sports progression, that fighters today will be better than in the boom a few years back. Gusty and Rory proved this recently, the boom loses out in this case.

 

Promotion/Business Practices/TV

 

 

The PPV market was UFC's golden goose in 2010, and during the boom as a whole. They broke records and had several cards just under or over a Million. Remember Chael vs Anderson 2, did not get to a Million. Partially this will be because of internet streaming becoming bigger, but there are other reasons.

 

The UFC had established a fantastic yet simple way to sell a PPV, put their countdown in a known timeslot on their known channel and enjoy. The fighters sold themselves in most cases, UFC 100 countdown is the best preview show I have seen. They gave Chael Sonnen ample time to sell UFC 117 in another excellent piece. BJ Penn, Dan Hardy and Rampage also sold their fights using Primetime very well also.

 

It was a easy time, the fighters were established and the formula proven, today it is not so. The changing of networks and vast amount of cards has led to the promotion alienating some fans. The Fuel era has not helped, no one watches that channel Dana!. The only thing that people will ague that has improved is that they are on Network TV. However, the audience seems to have been already there, they don't seem to add many viewers as the 5 million who watched Kimbo on TUF proved. Only around 4 million watched the FOX show this weekend, they used to get more than that in 2007 for Rampage vs Hendo if I recall right.

 

So whilst the sport has grown and evolved, it has not strictly anymore popular, even if it is a tad more socially acceptable.

 

Fun/Enjoyment

 

 

This part is just personal opinion, I never missed a show from around 2007-2011. These days I skip TUF and most countdown shows other than Primetime. I do not seek out prelims often either.

 

The quality of fights may be on par or maybe stronger, but the days of me getting amped every month have come to a end for now. It could just be a transition period as others have said, but looking back I did enjoy the boom more on a consistent basis. I still like MMA, I would not spend time on here talking about it if I did not, and I usually check whats going on most days. Maybe its age or other responsibilities as I have reached my mid-twenties or could even be rose-tinted glasses.

 

I think it was the stars though, Brock was something once in a lifetime, Chael was new and fresh, BJ was realizing his potential, Machida was mystical and GSP and Anderson like today were awe-inspiring. It was just a fun time for me as a fan. Like most thing in life it had to end and evolve. Whether that is into something better I will let you decide?

 

I will end my ramblings with a video I remember just before UFC 100 that I think captures the boom period well with the spirit in the air.

 

 

Edited December 11, 2012 by jimufctna24

[Egg Shen]

nice post, the whole excitement/fun thing i agree with but that for me was just feeling that excitement of something growing and feeling the energy the shows created, now i think it's more of evened out and plays out at a constant, some shows get me pumped more than others but in general my love of the sport is exactly the same.

[jimufctna24]

now i think it's more of evened out and plays out at a constant,

That is a really good point.

 

There was a certain buzz in the air in the summer of 2009 that lasted through summer 2010.

 

I remember their was a real buzz in the spring of 2007, around the Rampage title win, with rumors of HBO and PPV king Floyd Mayweather speaking about MMA for the first time (him and Liddel going back and forth got MMA mentioned in mainstream places)

 

I hope we get a buzz like that again. There was kinda one when Chael fought Anderson, but it only lasted a month and it was buzz around just those two, not the promotion as a whole.

[wandshogun09]

There'll always be periods like that which come along in the fight business. It obviously can't be like that all the time but there will always be times where certain fights, certain rivalries and certain fighters or in some cases a cluster of fighters or an entire division, just spark something for whatever reason.

 

It's worth remembering that as well as the oversaturation issues the UFC faces currently, there's also the fact that MMA has been hit by the recession just like everything else. The PPV figures were going to dip to some degree whatever the UFC put out. Silva vs Sonnen 2 probably would have exceeded a million PPV buys in a better economic climate.

 

MMA will boom again, it's just a matter of timing and the right fights and fighters coming along.

[jimufctna24]

It's worth remembering that as well as the oversaturation issues the UFC faces currently, there's also the fact that MMA has been hit by the recession just like everything else. The PPV figures were going to dip to some degree whatever the UFC put out. Silva vs Sonnen 2 probably would have exceeded a million PPV buys in a better economic climate.

The first sentence I totally agree with, Rampage of all people had a point. Why do so many cards and take on such a significant amount of the top talent, it overexposes your company and drys up the market from other companies becoming players (when there is a UFC card every week, why tune in to anything else?).

 

Rampage felt the UFC was too greedy, and whilst they have no reason not to try and grow I tend to agree that they could have done without overexposing itself so much. They even had a chance under its own roof with Strikeforce and WEC to have a alternative with decent talent, and for a while with WEC they did, but then they moved everything under their own roof. Which led to dilluted cards and overexposure of the UFC brand.

 

The recession point I disagree with a bit, the employment rate is slightly better in America now than it was in 2008-2010 when people were willing to spend. I agree that the buys would decrease at some point, but Dana has hardly helped himself by putting out more PPV's. I get growth and all that, but I think he went about it the wrong way.

Edited December 11, 2012 by jimufctna24

[Egg Shen]

just bunged on the ol' UFC Ultimate 100 Blu Ray whilst having a few pre-town brews...is anyone's else's set all to fuck with the disk labelling? the right content aint on the right disk, but anyways...

 

Clay Guida/Roger Huerta, what a fucking fight that was. Probably the first time ive seen it since it happened, it's an unbelievable fight, Guida's standup was fucking on for that that fight, it's sloppy but he outboxed Huerta for a lot of the fight, crazy pace and it just reaffirms why Guida is such a fan favorite. The Maynard fight was a blip on he resume but no body should hold that against him. I still love Huerta too, hopefully he can get his shit together and get back into the big show, matched up correctly he's always gonna be value for money.

 

As for the set, i know it was fan voted but there's some weird fights in there...like, why is Alves/Hughes at 15? (Alves looked fucking jacked in that fight though).

[jimufctna24]

Yes, I was amazed with how small Hughes looked next to him, and Hughes is a massive welterweight.

 

I forget Roger Huerta existed, but once upon a time (2007) he was on the verge of becoming massive. Maybe he should have stayed with the UFC in 2008, maybe then things would have turned out different, he left and was not cut if I recall rightly

 

[Egg Shen]

yeh, he left after he signed on to do the Tekken movie i think, i remember stories of Huerta having acting lessons and stuff around the time, when that never panned out though it's never become clear why things haven't really worked out for him. Bellator made a big deal about signing him but got shot after he lost to Eddie Alvarez but since then he's just had 2 fights in 2 years, last seen getting badly KO'd in One FC. I don't know if Huerta's heart isn't to it anymore but i'd love to see him make another run at it.

[Dai]

Can anyone give me pointers as to which of these title matches are worth watching, and maybe which ones are stinkers. My perception of the heavyweight title matches from this time are not good, but are there are belters amounst this lot?

 

01 – 1997.02.07 Mark Coleman vs Dan Severn (UFC 12)

02 – 1997.07.27 Mark Coleman vs Maurice Smith (UFC 14)

03 – 1997.10.17 Maurice Smith vs Tank Abbott (UFC 15)

04 – 1997.12.21 Maurice Smith vs Randy Couture (UFC Japan)

05 – 1999.05.07 Kevin Randleman vs Bas Rutten (UFC 20)

06 – 1999.11.19 Kevin Randleman vs Pete Williams (UFC 23)

07 – 2000.06.09 Kevin Randleman vs Pedro Rizzo (UFC 26)

08 – 2000.11.17 Kevin Randleman vs Randy Couture (UFC 28)

09 – 2001.05.04 Randy Couture vs Pedro Rizzo (UFC 31)

10 – 2001.11.02 Randy Couture vs Pedro Rizzo 2 (UFC 34)

11 – 2002.03.22 Randy Couture vs Josh Barnett (UFC 36)

12 – 2002.09.27 Randy Couture vs Ricco Rodriguez (UFC 39)

13 – 2003.02.28 Tim Sylvia vs Ricco Rodriguez (UFC 41)

14 – 2003.09.26 Tim Sylvia vs Gan McGee (UFC 44)

15 – 2004.06.19 Tim Sylvia vs Frank Mir (UFC 48)

16 – 2005.02.05 Tim Sylvia vs Andrei Arlovski (UFC 51)

17 – 2005.06.04 Andrei Arlovski vs Justin Eilers (UFC 53)

18 – 2005.10.07 Andrei Arlovski vs Paul Buentello (UFC 55)

19 – 2006.04.15 Andrei Arlovski vs Tim Sylvia 2 (UFC 59)

20 – 2006.07.08 Andrei Arlovski vs Tim Sylvia 3 (UFC 61)

21 – 2006.11.18 Tim Sylvia vs Jeff Monson (UFC 65)

 

 

 

Edit: Also, there was a post by someone talking about the best seasons of The Ultimate Fighter recently, but cant seem to find it. What are the best seasons to check out?

Edited January 2, 2013 by Dai

[The Natural]

Can anyone give me pointers as to which of these title matches are worth watching, and maybe which ones are stinkers. My perception of the heavyweight title matches from this time are not good, but are there are belters amounst this lot?

 

01

Edited January 2, 2013 by The Natural