MMA: Past Fight Discussion

[wandshogun09]

Haha. "I have the eye".

 

Is this sod real? Watching that video he's either the biggest delusional fucker breathing or he's the biggest troll ever. I can't make up my mind. I think he's deadly serious though. I'm still waiting for his thoughts on the Weidman fight. Did he teach Anderson to bob and weave into the KO like that? Some skill that. Where was his "eye" on Saturday?

 

The way he dismissed Joe Rogan's opinion was hilarious. Rogan for all his faults, has a legit martial arts background. He's actually competed and was successful in Tae Kwon Do, and has trained BJJ for years, as well as boxing and Muay Thai. He's more than qualified to say his piece. Has Seagal ever had a legit fight? I mean one that he wasn't handed a script for obviously. Has he ever put his 'deadly stuff' to the test in a competitive setting, ever? Other than the time Gene LeBell was supposed to have literally choked the shit out of him? He just pals up to the top fighters and tries to claim he's the reason they're winning. I bet as soon as Anderson lost, Seagal started asking around for GSP's phone number. He'll be the reason GSP is so good now, he invented wrestling years ago in Japan, don't you know?

 

Someone get on twitter and start a campaign for a Seagal vs Ray Longo fight to the death.

 

You knew I'd bite.

[jimufctna24]

I fucking love you Wand.

[wandshogun09]

Didn't know which thread to post this in but thought here was as good a place as any. Has anyone heard of a 2005 Japanese film called Nagurimono: Love & Kill? I've never heard of it but I stumbled across some of the fight scenes earlier on YouTube. Some familiar faces. Have a look;

 

 

Frye vs Takayama fight scene;

 

Wandy is in it!

 

Wand's fight scene;

 

And these two chaps also put in an appearance;

 

I didn't know anything about this. Anyone seen the whole thing?

[Egg Shen]

nah ive never heard of that either, i might seeing if i can track it down.

 

On the subject of Seagal, his past is sketchy, but his background and the respect he has in the Akido community is apparently legit. Akido seems like such a dumb martial art though... but it looks great in the movies.

 

I'm a big fan of Seagal's movies though (pre-DTV) so i'll always have time for him

 

Bow to your sensei!

Edited July 15, 2013 by Ebb

[jimufctna24]

The Future Is Bright

 

I know this defeats the purpose of a "past MMA" thread, but as long posts and observations are more welcomed in this thread, I thought I would discuss my rationale as to why the UFC is looking healthy than it has done in 3 years. It is all down to the new school in my opinion.

 

Marketable and Young Stars

 

 

If I was given the choice to draft one fighter to base my MMA promotion around, Jon Jones would be my first pick. Tall and Good Looking, Jones would not look that out of place in the NBA, he looks like a typical American Sports star and is talented as hell. Whilst Jones for now lacks the charm of say GSP or Anderson there is still plenty of time for him to endear himself to the audience. I doubt he will ever be as charismatic as Ali, be a bad boy akin to Tyson, but he could very well have the same appeal as NBA Legend Michael Jordan he had a aura that screamed "I am the best" and was thought of as such.

 

Whilst Jones should keep business in the UFC's garden healthy, in Brazil Jose Aldo could become a megastar and take other from Anderson Silva. Aldo has a rags to riches tale that would appeal in Brazil and has a devilish charm with his scar and at times brutal fighting style. Brazil is a market that is only second to the American market, and Aldo could be the main man to ensure a fruitful presence in Brazil.

 

Cain Velasquez has given the UFC something they have craved for over a decade, a Hispanic superstar to tap a market that has alluded them. Cain is hardly a expressive and charismatic dynamo, but Mexicans who are passionate about fighting are latching on to the talented Heavyweight in a way they have to Mexican boxers for years now. The Latino market in America is ever growing due to the vast population of them in America, so Cain's appeal can only grow if he continues fighting and winning.

 

Speaking of new markets, Ronda Rousey is spearheading the female MMA movement in the UFC. Rousey with her modest good looks is perfect for this, and her last defense drew good business and media attention that the UFC crave. Whether it will be a fad is debatable, but for now Rousey is drawing in new viewers if experts are to be believed, that can only be a good thing for the UFC. If Womens MMA does latch on Full-Time, it is yet another card Dana can play to help his business.

 

These new stars come at a crucial time, Anderson and GSP cannot be relied upon forever. GSP will always draw big and produce the big time atmosphere for fight fans, but he is fragile and injury prone. Anderson is reaching 40 and only a draw in certain situations in America. Neither are likely to fight 3 times a year. With Lesnar and Liddel long gone, Overeem arguably a flop and Sonnen, Shogun and Penn in their winter years, change was needed fast.

 

Super fights are still possible as well, even without GSP/Silva. Cain vs Jones if both continue to win (that I heavily expect them to, but you never know in MMA) could be the fight that defines a era. If/when Jones moves up, he has the potential to become the greatest fighter ever if he slays the Heavyweight class, and beating a monster like Cain would be a worthy foe to underline this status. Aldo is also open to superfights. Aldo vs Bendo could do mega business in Brazil for example, with the way Aldo beat Edgar it is rational to expect Aldo to beat Bendo who is vulnerable but credible Champion for Aldo to be showcased against.

 

In all this I have not mentioned hot young talents like Pettis and Macdonald. Pettis if he was to beat Bendo could be a megastar, and again against Aldo in a year or so if both kept winning, would be something a bit special. Rory is the great Canadian hope, I am not sold on him becoming a superstar or as a fighter as much as other fans are, but he could well be the heir to GSP's throne in the next 5 years or so. Weidman despite appearing to be bland as a person, will also hopefully gain some appeal if he beats Anderson again, the momentum and attention the first fight got can only help his appeal in the long run. The have reliable hands like JDS, Mousasi and Machida who add depth to their roster as well as marquee value. All seemingly have plenty of years as serious threats for UFC gold.

 

It is not all a garden of roses. The Flyweight and Bantamweight classes do not have the same instant appeal as the Womens division. It could change in time if a fighter comes along in either class who can captivate the audience. I struggle to name 5 Flyweights currently, and do not know who the guy fighting Mouse is next weekend, the interest is not there yet. Barao gets overlooked in P4P lists due to lack of exposure and interest in the division he rules over.

 

TUF is still stale, and the new format does nothing for me. It may work as the "Rousey effect" may take action, but where TUF goes from there baffles me. Its a tired format and barring international versions to improve exposure in foreign markets, I think TUF should be laid to rest or a entirely new format launched in the near future. The is only a certain amount of times you can milk the same cow.

 

All in all, the good greatly outweighs the bad. UFC is looking like it could be as safe as houses for the next few years. I look forward to watching how things pan out.

[Egg Shen]

i find it worrying that many of the UFC 'name' guys remain the same guys from a few years ago. I base it on my experience but i always realise that most men have some kind of UFC knowledge and it all stems from the a period a few years ago. Like if someone asks me who's on a fight card, i find the only names they respond too are the usual names, Shogun, Bisping, Henderson, Koscheck, Nogueira, Wanderlei, Anderson, Belfort, Evans etc. outside of them kind of names i'm met with dis-interest.

 

I guess it proves that the UFC 'fad' has come and gone, it was one of them things that people got into, supposedly loved then forgot about (yet still claim to be experts).

 

In a way i like it, it's a selfish kind of view but i prefer to have people watch the sport that have a genuine interest in it, but on the other it makes you wonder how they'll get on in years to come when the staple names are gone. If your in the know you obviously know that the standard of fighter and the state of the divisions right now is better than its ever been, but to the standard 'fan' that stuff doesn't seem to matter.

 

Anyone know what im trying say?

[wandshogun09]

Yeah I see that. Most people seem to have watched in the Chuck/Tito/Randy era from what I can tell. They know Hughes, GSP, Anderson, Penn and Brock as well, but it seems like anyone who came along after 2008ish, they dont really know. The people like this who I speak to don't even really know Nog, Shogun etc. Their knowledge seems to stop at around 2006. The last boom where people outside the usual core of fans were into it was probably around 2009/10, and I think a lot of that was down to Brock bringing in new viewers. The 2004-06 boom was probably down to Tito-Ken and TUF.

 

It was the same with wrestling for years I found. When I was watching regularly, even up to 2006/7 people would ask 'are Legion Of Doom still in it?' The same few names always came up - Warrior, Bulldog, LOD, Jake. I'm guilty now as well, when my nephews have Raw on at mine, I don't know who half the roster are anymore.

 

There will always be these hot periods where everyone and their dog seems to be into it. But it seems like we're currently in that phase where they've mostly moved on and the fans who are watching now are the 'hardcores' for lack of a better term.

 

Another reason for the drop off might be, when you look at who's been on top in MMA since about 2011, not many speak English. That's a bigger aspect than people think IMO. Dana's right when he says fighting goes past the language barrier, but that can only go so far. There's a reason a guy like Barao is considered lacking in marketability in America but has been seen as the second coming in Brazil for the last 2-3 years. People can only connect so much with a fighter who they have to read subtitles or listen to Ed Soares, to watch their interviews.

 

Look at the big boom periods, and look at who was on top at the time. In 2004-06 you had Chuck, Tito, Randy, Hughes, Sylvia, GSP and Penn. All speak English. In 2009-10 you had Brock, GSP, prime BJ Penn, Rashad, Rampage, Sonnen. You had your Brazilians as always, but there was enough American/Canadian guys in the title picture to keep casuals interested. Over the last couple of years though, it's mainly been Brazilians ruling the roost. And the only real breakthrough events featured English speakers like Sonnen and Lesnar, and GSP.

 

Over the last year Jon Jones has come out of his shell more, Ronda Rousey has become one of the biggest stars in MMA. These two could be cross over stars, and they give a great image to the UFC's legitimacy. Chuck was awesome but sending your top draw on a talkshow with a mohawked tattooed head, you can see why the mainstream media might have been hesitant to get on board. Jones and Rousey are perfect for promotion in 2013. All it takes is a few personalities to catch on and you're cooking. I think Ronda is well on her way already, I think Jones has the ingredients to be the biggest star in the sport, Anthony Pettis could be huge if he stays healthy. Chris Weidman should be a made man if he can beat Anderson decisively in the rematch. Rory MacDonald, Jake Ellenberger and Johny Hendricks are slowly gaining followings. And although early to say how good he truly is, Conor McGregor has charisma and potential coming out of his arse. If he lives up to it in the cage, the sky's the limit.

 

All the pieces are in place for new stars to emerge in 2013 and beyond. And they need it now. Over the last 3 years we've seen Chuck Liddell, Tito Ortiz, Randy Couture, Brock Lesnar and Forrest Griffin retire. Rampage has left. BJ's declined. Shogun's declined. Wand and Nog are still kicking but for how much longer? Anderson is approaching 40 and has finally lost. GSP probably doesn't have many years left. Chael's probably thinking retirement. Guys like Mir and Barnett etc are north of 30 and battleworn. Now more than ever they need new stars. The good thing is the roster is deep and there's so much talent there, it's just a question of certain fighters capturing the public and the UFC taking advantage of the young talent they have. There's no reason why they can't.

Edited July 19, 2013 by wandshogun09

[jimufctna24]

I disagree to a extent, most fans I speak to know who Jones is. I think the casual audience who watched in 2008 are still present in 2013 if the UFC put something big on.

 

The buyrate for Diaz vs GSP shows the market is still there on PPV, the TV audience I think is still there if they get the right timeslot and the right stars. The only question is if GSP leaves can someone on their own without a specific opponent draw in the 1 Million ballpark on PPV. Only GSP and Brock can do that, as they could draw 600k fighting EBB

 

I think Jones could become that guy, but it may take time yet.

 

In this country, it just needs a decent TV slot on a decent channel. Most guys I know in their early and mid 20's have some interest in UFC, even if they are not die-hards. They have a audience to feed I believe.

[wandshogun09]

It's different in different groups of people I imagine. The casuals I know, we don't really talk MMA, but when it does come up it's usually Chuck, Brock and BJ Penn, guys like that they ask about. No-one I know knows Jones unless they follow the sport. A few have seen him but he's just another fighter to them, they haven't seen what he's done in context.

 

GSP vs Diaz was a monster, but again, established names. That was GSP, who as you say draws with everyone, fighting his arch nemesis who also has a big following and an established name. It was always going to draw. Rare fights like that will pull the old fans back in but as we say, what happens when these guys retire? They're the only point of reference these lost fans have to the new UFC really.

 

I think a lot of this is also just how much UFC is on now. Back in 2005/06 you only had a PPV every two months or so, with the Fight Nights sprinkled in between every couple of months. You were looking at around 6-10 PPVs tops per year back then, with say 5 Fight Nights. So call it 15 UFC shows in a year. It was easier for casual fans to follow and the gaps between shows built up a desire to see more. Absence makes the heart fonder and all that. Then look at what they're putting out now. It's great for us who watch everything but the sheer volume of shows now, is not for everyone. By the end of 2013 there'll have been 13 PPVs. Add in the free shows on FX, FUEL, FOX and FOX Sports 1, man, you can whack another 20 shows on. That's like, 30 plus shows this year alone. Plus more TUF than ever with the international TUFs added.

 

Like I say, great for us. But to some it's overkill and they'll simply cherry pick certain shows. Also, with the increase in how many PPVs the UFC are putting out, it's probably caused a lot of people to just opt to go the illegal streaming/downloading route which would cause the PPV figures to be down a bit as well.

 

It's the way it's going to be I suppose. The UFC has gotten too big to go back to the 2005 formula. They've got more guys and girls on the roster now so they can't scale back the shows, and the FOX deal requires so many shows a year as well.

 

We'll see. We're only about 2 years into the 7 year FOX deal. More and more fighters are getting big sponsors now like Nike, Burger King and so on, so it's growing. And these fighters are more exposed worldwide than ever before.

 

As for the UK, I don't really know how much they can do differently. The time difference kind of fucks things up however you slice it. While they're always saying 'if we get the right TV deal, with a good time slot, we'll be huge', I don't know. What is a 'good time slot'? The time difference means live UFC is always going to be on at stupid hours for us. The only way to put it on in a better time slot is by delaying it and showing it on Sundays at 8pm or whatever. But, that's shit. That's going back to the Bravo days. In this day and age, sports on delay doesn't really work. The spoilers are everywhere in a heartbeat. There's only so much they can do here. They can do a UK specific panel show to try to educate fans here, put it on in prime time slots with guests and stuff to and try to draw new fans in. That's a step in the right direction but the fact is they're still going to have the shows on live at 3am. There's only so much you can do to convince an audience of, mostly adults with other stuff to do on Saturday nights, to either stay up until 6am to watch, or Sky+ it, avoid spoilers and watch on delay the next day. The fanbase here who stay up or are committed enough to actively avoid spoilers etc will always be there, but to make the audience grow, it won't be as simple as just whacking it on a new channel. Even if Sky Sports got it, yeah it would get more publicity probably, but they'd still have the time difference issue to contend with.

 

It can still do well. WWF/E have been in the same boat for years (although I don't know how well their PPVs do ratings wise on Sky over here). UFC can't expect to do the same business at 3am here as they do at 7pm in the States though. It will never be as big here as it is there. It's why Canada and Brazil have been such hot markets for them. The timezones are similar to the US which means a) it's televised live at a good time and b) they can whack big names on the cards and hold big fairly regular PPV cards there.

[jimufctna24]

Overexposure will mean casuals will cherry pick shows, and the percentage of shows that attract the casual consumer is probably less, that I can agree on.

 

Some of the names used as people remembering barely drew more than Jones's highest buyrate, which I think was 700k with Rashad. Penn and Liddel did indeed touch a Million buys once each with the right opponent, but Hughes and Shogun have not. Time buys reputation and in time I think Jones will catch up, I think he is near Hughes and Shogun know for name recognition. The casuals are there to be fed still, as proven by the recent buyrates involving Jones and Sonnen, both were not big names before 2010/2011.

 

Anderson in say 2008 was not that well to the casual fan, like Jones was a few years back for example. Back then the casuals would not know Anderson enough to buy his shows, but instead know Liddel and GSP. Fast forward a few years and Anderson is a fighter that most casuals will mention. If the reputation of Jones is not already fully developed, it will do soon enough.

 

I disagree with the Diaz thing to a extent, I doubt casual fans will have known him in his Strikeforce days, I think it was the UFC Primetime that exposed him to casuals, and the Condit fight causing a stir. The pre fight hype helped, because pre 2011, I would wager Diaz would not be someone casuals would know a lot about, his initial UFC run ended in 2006 and Strikeforce is hardy a casual fans scene.

Edited July 19, 2013 by jimufctna24

[Egg Shen]

I disagree to a extent, most fans I speak to know who Jones is. I think the casual audience who watched in 2008 are still present in 2013 if the UFC put something big on.

yeh they probably do, but i find theres a certain group of people (and i only say this because it applies to people i know), that got into around the boom period, loved it for 5 mins, stopped watching pretty much altogether but still associate the big names around that time as being the be all and end all of MMA. Ive had several conversations with 'fans' whos knowledge is like 4-5 years out of date haha.

[Egg Shen]

....as for cherry picking, that was always gonna happen when the product expanded. Certain MMA fans have a spoiled mentality when they shit on anything that isnt stacked from top to bottom but thats simply illogical. Im still in a position where i watch every UFC but im aware that in future i may have to be more selective like i am with boxing. The standard of UFC shows though despite the expansion is still phenomonal, you gotta be pretty stuck up to complain.

[jimufctna24]

yeh they probably do, but i find theres a certain group of people (and i only say this because it applies to people i know), that got into around the boom period, loved it for 5 mins, stopped watching pretty much altogether but still associate the big names around that time as being the be all and end all of MMA. Ive had several conversations with 'fans' whos knowledge is like 4-5 years out of date haha.

Fair enough, I have not met any of them personally, but it is must vary from who you know.

 

The closest I have had is a few pro wrestling fans I know have no interest now Brock has left

[wandshogun09]

Some of the names used as people remembering barely drew more than Jones's highest buyrate, which I think was 700k with Rashad. Penn and Liddel did indeed touch a Million buys once each with the right opponent, but Hughes and Shogun have not. Time buys reputation and in time I think Jones will catch up, I think he is near Hughes and Shogun know for name recognition. The casuals are there to be fed still, as proven by the recent buyrates involving Jones and Sonnen, both were not big names before 2010/2011.

 

Yeah, I'm not saying these guys like Shogun and Hughes were massive draws or anything. But they were in high profile positions on big cards when the product was at it's hottest. So by default they're remembered. To use a wrestling analogy, D'Lo Brown and Val Venis weren't the biggest stars of the Attitude Era by a long stretch, but they reaped the benefits of the boom period they were a part of.

 

You're right about Jones and Sonnen though. That's a big fight between two names who really came into the spotlight around 2010.

 

I disagree with the Diaz thing to a extent, I doubt casual fans will have known him in his Strikeforce days, I think it was the UFC Primetime that exposed him to casuals, and the Condit fight causing a stir.

 

That's the thing though, there aren't fixed rules for what casual fans remember. By definition, a casual fan dips in and out, so it's not like there's a neat tidy cut-off point when they stop watching. They'll come and go.

 

I know a couple of blokes who were pretty big into MMA in the 2008-10 period. They came to UFCs with me and my brother, they watched UFCs live, and they were well into both Strikeforce and Affliction. They certainly knew Diaz. Their viewing seemed to drop off around 2010. Probably after Brock lost to Cain. They'd dip in and out after that, I remember them coming around for Anderson vs Belfort and one or two other big shows but that was it. I don't think I had more than one or two brief conversations with them about MMA last year, they just weren't arsed. But one of them started texting me about the GSP-Diaz press conference video he'd seen and that was that, he was in. He was round mine for UFC 158. He didn't even know about the Diaz vs Condit fallout so it wasn't that which drew him in, nor had he seen Primetime for that fight. He knew Diaz from Strikeforce, and remembered Diaz constantly going on about fighting GSP one day. That's what drew him in.

 

So while I agree, a lot of fans were likely introduced to Diaz by Primetime and the 158 hype, there were certainly some casual fans who were more aware of his history. Remember, in that hot period in 2009/10, Strikeforce was a bigger part of the MMA scene than it was in it's dying months. MMA as a whole was hotter and even casuals were watching certain Strikeforce shows and keeping up with the Affliction/Fedor happenings. The casual fans you know will be different to the casual fans I know, and the casuals we know will be different to the ones Ebb or David or deathrey will know. Everyone dipped in and out and different points during the boom years, and latched on to different fighters as a result I guess.

[jimufctna24]

Fair enough, I conceded above its different for each circle of people you cross.

 

I think the TV situation is more the reason though, not the actual fighters. ESPN/BT just do not reach enough homes.

Edited July 19, 2013 by jimufctna24