Michael_3165 Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Jim Cornette once said in an interview 'the boys are beating each other up and the fans think it's fake' or something to that effect. This was on the back of a conversation in which Cornette argues that nowadays the 'marks' are in the locker-room. There is a growing group of wrestlers that feel the insane need to go out on a nightly basis, whacking each other with blunt instruments, bumping on their heads and/or genuinely head butting each other. Now given that the WWE have made huge strides to avoid head shots with weapons it is naive to think that this has eliminated the high levels of risk that are involved in some aspects of wrestling today. My questions are... can you be viewed as a truly great 'worker' when you have to resort to high impact bumps and risks to 'get over' and if you use such tactics does this make you a professional or a mark for yourself? I want to turn back for a moment to some of the more famous 'names' in the business, taking a look at the risks they have taken in the name of wrestling... Chris Benoit is a prime example of someone that took risks inside the ring leading to one of the biggest scandals in the history of the wrestling industry. Apart from the chair shots to the head - a common happening in the attitude era - Benoit was renowned for his flying head-butt, suplexes and high impact style. Similarly the Dynamite Kid began having problems with his back and neck because of the exact same types of moves he performed in the 80s. Undoubtedly Benoit was a highly talented performer, perhaps one of the greatest technicians in the history of the business. Does his lack of regard for his own body make him any less a professional? Why would such a talent need to resort to chair shots and damaging offence to get a 'pop' from the crowd? Was there no other way the 'Crippler' could get over with the fans without crippling himself? Daniel Bryan is one of the latest in a line of performers that have screwed up their bodies. His English dropkick, drop kicks in the corner and knee strike finisher have all contributed to his (mysterious) injuries most likely involving his neck and shoulder. He had a long history of recklessness in the ring - including the 'ram head butt' routine that he evolved in Ring of Honour against McGuiness. Once again the question needs to be asked... does someone with the talent of Bryan need to take such risks and what is in it for him in the short and long term? Nigel McGuiness is a sorry story. A terribly reckless performer who would hit his lariats legitimately causing injury to himself but also his opponents on occasion. He allowed Austin Aries to hit him from behind, failing to protect himself sufficiently and being knocked out and bleeding profusely. The fact is McGuiness has experienced neurological damage - including memory problems - and has experienced atrophy in his arm. It is sad to see given the level of expertise the guy had with technical wrestling, his match with Jerry Lynn early in RoH being one of my favourite matches. Is it that McGuiness can't work safely or chooses not to? Either way it's hardly a glowing report on his work. Dolph Ziggler is a funny one. The guy is a human pinball machine. I have seen many a match where he takes (arguably) unreasonably risky bumps and I have to wonder if he would be as 'over' with sections of the crowd without taking unnecessary bumps. I also point to his recent series with Sheamus where he required ten stitches to close a nasty cut from a head butt. Either he is reckless or he doesn't care... I am unsure which is which. Mick Foley the wrestling stuntman. It's a shame that he has been known as the guy with the sock or the guy that fell from the HIAC because he is a great worker when placed with star performers (i.e. Shawn Michaels, Undertaker, Edge etc). I have a firm belief that throwing yourself backward onto the concrete for the sake of a pop is not a good way of doing business. There is little talent in that other than a lack of care for your own wellbeing and a huge amount of courage (or stupidity). There is clearly a desire to see the ante being raised from the wrestling fans but does that mean that the wrestlers themselves have to meet those demands? Surely wrestlers should give the fans what they will give them and with enough talent the fans will respond positively. It used to be the case that fans used to think everything was (at least partially) real and the wrestlers knew it was a work. Now wrestler will voluntarily go out there and risk serious injury for fans that think it's all fake! So who are the true 'marks' (pardon the term I don't like it but it's the only term I can describe it as)? There is a place for risky spots. That said I greatly appreciate the wonderful abilities of performers who can produce quality 'safe' matches where everyone walks away safe and well. I still have that old school mentality that there is no art in going out there intentionally trying to get (or allowing yourself to be) hurt. So what are your thoughts on high risk takers? This is all opinion so no flaming please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 The cell bump specifically, yes, but he was taking the headfirst bumps off the apron on shitty little house shows and indies for years before that. The spot where he lost his ear was only caught on a fancam. Did he do anything silly for his health in TNA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Direct Impact Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 17 Years ago today was the Hell In A Cell match at King Of The Ring 97. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WyattSheepMask Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 In the dimension where years are one year behind themselves it would seem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PowerButchi Posted June 28, 2015 Moderators Share Posted June 28, 2015 Well, that's not right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Direct Impact Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 King of The Ring 98! Couldn't you just say, it was KOTR 98 instead of being an arse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PowerButchi Posted June 28, 2015 Moderators Share Posted June 28, 2015 No! No! No! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members herbie747 Posted June 28, 2015 Paid Members Share Posted June 28, 2015 Yeah, this is definitely a thing. When you maim & scar yourself in front of 50 people for £/$20, you have to be a bigtime mark, because you're not making any money from it vs the damage you're taking. Look at Axl Rotten- in ribbons at 40 & broke. But he never even made major league money to justify any of it. Same with Necro Butcher. Most of the IWA MS and CZW hardcore-style guys will end up like this. If that's what they want to do - then absolutely fine. Work away. But my only observation here is that these wrestlers seem to be the ones most likely to call the fans 'marks'. Balls Mahoney loves calling fans 'fucking marks' whilst he hobbles around with no teeth & looking homeless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Anyone who gets into wrestling is a mark. Batter your body off ultra think over used blue PE mats to train, travel around and wrestle for a pittance, but look down for folk working for free when you're on 40 quid for all the travel and bumps. Not even minimum wage before you consider expenses. And this is the actual good wrestlers. Not the attention seekers/challenged that do "hard-core". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members herbie747 Posted June 28, 2015 Paid Members Share Posted June 28, 2015 Anyone who gets into wrestling is a mark. Batter your body off ultra think over used blue PE mats to train, travel around and wrestle for a pittance, but look down for folk working for free when you're on 40 quid for all the travel and bumps. Not even minimum wage before you consider expenses. And this is the actual good wrestlers. Not the attention seekers/challenged that do "hard-core". I like John Listers definition of a mark best (someone asked to define it on here a few years ago, and John's I think made most sense); that a mark is someone who spends more money on wrestling than they make from it. So saying "Anyone who gets into wrestling is a mark." isn't true, IMO. I also like John's definition because it meant I wasn't a mark, even though I'm a total mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Lenin Posted June 28, 2015 Paid Members Share Posted June 28, 2015 You only have to go to your local wrestling show to see marks at work. 10 years of going to shows, listening to them saying they're about to hit the big time, taking ridiculous 30 foot bumps and at the most recent they're still doing it. Except it is ten years later, they are still working two jobs to pay the bills and the halls maybe have 100 folk. On a good night. In the big leagues,there will always be a few but thankfully WWE have managed it out of regularity. Jeff Hardy, Edge did unbelievable spots but it was 5 years before anyone really understood the damage it caused. Diving off a balcony or ladder means nothing if it doesn't further the story of the match. Too many people setting bad examples in gym halls in front of kids. So no, if you have to get over by taking silly bumps then you are not a good worker. You are more than likely compensating for having no personality/charisma. (See Dolph ziggler, Shelton Benjamin et al) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members herbie747 Posted June 28, 2015 Paid Members Share Posted June 28, 2015 You can say that again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Lenin Posted June 28, 2015 Paid Members Share Posted June 28, 2015 You can say that again. Hahaha for some reason my post multiplies on the tablet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members herbie747 Posted June 28, 2015 Paid Members Share Posted June 28, 2015 You can say that again. Hahaha for some reason my post multiplies on the tablet! It's the forum - happens to all of us. You hit 'Post', and nothing happens, so you press it again. I check now after it happens, and my post is always there. Not your fault - or your tablets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Lenin Posted June 28, 2015 Paid Members Share Posted June 28, 2015 You can say that again. Hahaha for some reason my post multiplies on the tablet! It's the forum - happens to all of us. You hit 'Post', and nothing happens, so you press it again. I check now after it happens, and my post is always there. Not your fault - or your tablets. Made me chuckle anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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