Why

[Sgt. Ducky]

Speaking as a Muslim, I find it ridiculous that Muslim parents are complaining about nativity plays. We're living in a country that is traditionally Christian, but has a sizeable Muslim, Sikh, Hindu and Jewish community as well. I believe that we should celebrate Christmas, as well as Easter, Eids, Passover, Diwali and everything else. There's no harm in a good bit of celebrating! It would educate people to other cultures and religions, which would be especially useful in schools. Racism is often born out of ignorance. Eliminate ignorance and there is more chance of reducing racism. I agree that the world has gone PC mad.

[cactuskent]

i haven't read the rest of this thread, but you brang up the oldham riots. I live in greater manchester, just outside oldham,in Royton, infact,the school i go to is in oldham,in oldham some of the parts are all white,some are slightly mixed,and some are all asian.i dont really know why i mentioned that, but i guess it shows that theres a divide or whatever?meh.the riots happened in glodwick,a 30min drive from me,and its not a nice place at all, it is a predominatly asian area, and was caused by angered whites i believe.also, on that weekend, OAFC were playing stoke,and after the game, stoke fans more than led the way into the asian streets to give them all a good stuffing(we all know what the stoke fans are like ) for various reasons, like attacks on single whites by asian gangs etc. I think the main anger was that the police showed no support when asians were clearly being racist to whites,attacking them out of areas to make their own etc.this reached boiling point when a white teen was killed by a gang.I'm not racist,and it seems much more peaceful there now. But im glad its all cool were i live

[Surf Digby]

Speaking as a Muslim, I find it ridiculous that Muslim parents are complaining about nativity plays. We're living in a country that is traditionally Christian, but has a sizeable Muslim, Sikh, Hindu and Jewish community as well.

As a Hindu gentleman pointed out when he 'phoned into a talk show yesterday, Christ appears in Hindu scriptures, and he was Jewish, so all this bollocks the politicians are spouting about it offending all the other non-Christians is entirely that. Bollocks.I would argue that if we have to abandon Christian customs, then we should outlaw the celebration of other religion's festivals too. To be honest I don't know why anyone's whining. We Christians don't throw a tantrum when they celebrate Diwali, Yom Kippur, etc.., (in fact most barely even notice)and seeing as they don't celebrate Christmas why not just ignore it?

[Sgt. Ducky]

Islam also recognises Jesus, albeit as a prophet, and as you mention, the Bible refers to him as the King of the Jews I believe. And Jerusalem is a holy city of Jews, Christians and Arabs.Religion, huh?

[Richie]

the year after they will abolish WOnderful Christmas Time by Paul McCartney

Oh well every cloud has a silver lining.

[sgmilne]

Just like many other words, the 'p' and 'n' words have gone from having innocent meanings (i.e. abbreviations of the nationals of Pakistan and Nigeria) to be used in a hateful manner. This has happened to words such as Gay, Molest, Spastic and many more.However, i really don't see the problem in referring to someone as 'coloured'. I am classed as "White", even though i'm not, and it doesn't bother me. And it seems that alot of people, whether the PC brigade likes it or not, have a serious chip on their shoulder.I have no problem whatsoever with the colour of someone's skin and i don't think people should be judged either way. The only thing that irritates me is hypocritical 'religious' types. The type that quotes their religion, but breaks their own rules when it suits. Whether it be the type who claims to be a Catholic 'to the letter', but breaks many of the Catholic rules, or the type who will come to Britain and enjoy a better standard of living and more freedom, yet spouts anti-British or anti-American bile. The type of person (and there were many) who lived in this country and cheered when the events of September 11th took place. And the biggest and worst piece of hypocricy is that if you go to some Muslim countries, you'll find that there is no way in hell that the people there will change in ANY way to accomodate the beliefs and lifestyle of the average Briton. Non Muslim women still have to cover up etc. Why? We don't outlaw Muslim women from wearing their outfits that you can only see their eyes in. But it amounts to the same thing.Yet in some cases (and lets not tar everyone with the same brush - it's only a small minority of immigrants who are like this) there are calls for Easter and Christmas to be cancelled. Is it not the case that in one part of England, Christmas is now known as Winterfest, or something equally stupid. What right do they have to demand this? Absolutly none. If they are so offended by Christian practices or the practices of any other religion, they shouldn't live in this multi-cultural society. I have absolutly no problem with any religious festivities, because everyone should have the right to celebrate what they believe in.But let's not be one sided - there ARE British people who are totally racist, and see Hindu's, Muslims, Jews etc as a lesser class and 'different' from the rest of us, and it is these people who have caused the whole PC thing to come about. However, there are Muslims who are even worse when it comes to racism. They have huge chips on their shoulder because they expect everyone to be against them, and in some cases, are totally intollerant of anyone who isn't a Muslim. But in the UK, this is just ignored, and i have no idea why.Furthermore, if you look at universities etc in the UK, you'll find there are properly run "Asian clubs". I find that to be racist. Simply because it is making a set definition of who can join. Just like in some clubs, there are "Women only lounges". What would happen if someone decided to set up a "Caucasian Club" at University? There would be an enourmous uproar from Asians. Or if a nightclub, there was a "Men Only Lounge"? That'd be deemed the absolute height of sexism.I personally am friends with alot of Asians. My best mate is Indian (he, incidentally refused to join the Asian Club at University on the grounds that it was racist), and i've got friends from Bangladesh and Pakistan as well. Infact, it's been joked that i'm the 'token' white. Now, primarily, i'm mates with people from India and Bangladesh, as opposed to Pakistan. Now, the guys from India and Bangladesh refer to the people from Pakistan as the "Pakis" or "Hamilton Accies", and they have no bones about it. And the guys from Pakistan don't mind if the people from India and Bangladesh say it. If I was to say it, i'd be severly frowned upon. Similarly, i was walking with 4 of my Asian mates, and a guy who i knew as well as them came up to us, and he was shaking hands and bowing to my mates, but completly ignored me. Why? A matter of race. Is it ok for them to do that? In the scheme of things, it certainly seems to be. However, if he was walking with a selection of Caucasians and i approached them and blanked him and only him, there would be a huge outcry of racism.So in that long rant, i'm trying to say that PC is a complete joke. Racism exists on both sides of the racial fence, but while there are racists who are Caucasian, there are just as many racists living in this country who are Asian. However, at the end of the day, PC only seems to apply to how Caucasians act, and to an extent, PC seems to be a device that exists mostly to the detriment of the Caucasian Male in society. That's not the fault of the Asians, but it's a hypocritical pandering attitude that exists in local councils and in government, because they believe that the minority must be pandered to. And that's what i hate the most, hypocricy. Everyone should be allowed to do what they believe in, as long as people aren't singled out or abused. Christmas doesn't 'single people out', it is just an event that the majority is involved in. The minority still have their events and that should be fine as well.

[Burchill's Buddy]

I believe that we should celebrate Christmas, as well as Easter, Eids, Passover, Diwali and everything else. There's no harm in a good bit of celebrating! It would educate people to other cultures and religions, which would be especially useful in schools.

I agree, most people in the UK who celebrate christmas arent exactly devout christians anyway, thats why I dont understand why some Muslims get so offended by us celebrating it. Christmas is more about tradition than religion in my opinion. (which is why im pissed off about not being allowed to wear our little santa hats at work this year)

And the biggest and worst piece of hypocricy is that if you go to some Muslim countries, you'll find that there is no way in hell that the people there will change in ANY way to accomodate the beliefs and lifestyle of the average Briton. Non Muslim women still have to cover up etc. Why? We don't outlaw Muslim women from wearing their outfits that you can only see their eyes in. But it amounts to the same thing.

very good point.

[Burchill's Buddy]

in fact I agree with everything you say there sgmilne. Excellent post

[sgmilne]

Cheers BB.I think it's very difficult though to address the topic without coming across as racist to even a small extent. However, i hope i managed not to.

[Linus]

Just like many other words, the 'p' and 'n' words have gone from having innocent meanings (i.e. abbreviations of the nationals of Pakistan and Nigeria) to be used in a hateful manner. This has happened to words such as Gay, Molest, Spastic and many more.

I'd be interested to hear any definition of molest that wasn't already harmful. Oh, and you'll find that nigger comes from negro, which comes from the latin for black.

However, i really don't see the problem in referring to someone as 'coloured'. I am classed as "White", even though i'm not, and it doesn't bother me. And it seems that alot of people, whether the PC brigade likes it or not, have a serious chip on their shoulder.

It's simple good manners - call 'em what you want when they're not around, but - as it is generally accepted that most black people don't like the term - don't say coloureds when it may be taken offence to.

I have no problem whatsoever with the colour of someone's skin and i don't think people should be judged either way. The only thing that irritates me is hypocritical 'religious' types. The type that quotes their religion, but breaks their own rules when it suits. Whether it be the type who claims to be a Catholic 'to the letter', but breaks many of the Catholic rules, or the type who will come to Britain and enjoy a better standard of living and more freedom, yet spouts anti-British or anti-American bile. The type of person (and there were many) who lived in this country and cheered when the events of September 11th took place.

Hey, don't blame religion, blame people....

And the biggest and worst piece of hypocricy is that if you go to some Muslim countries, you'll find that there is no way in hell that the people there will change in ANY way to accomodate the beliefs and lifestyle of the average Briton. Non Muslim women still have to cover up etc. Why? We don't outlaw Muslim women from wearing their outfits that you can only see their eyes in. But it amounts to the same thing.

No, it doesn't. One causes offence to Muslims, however right they may be in yaking that offence, the other causes offence to no-one except fans of true ninjas...

Yet in some cases (and lets not tar everyone with the same brush - it's only a small minority of immigrants who are like this) there are calls for Easter and Christmas to be cancelled. Is it not the case that in one part of England, Christmas is now known as Winterfest, or something equally stupid. What right do they have to demand this? Absolutly none. If they are so offended by Christian practices or the practices of any other religion, they shouldn't live in this multi-cultural society. I have absolutly no problem with any religious festivities, because everyone should have the right to celebrate what they believe in.

You'll mostly find that these decisions to ban and change names are taken by idiots - their religion or colour is of no consequence. Besides, most of the people who make such stupid pronouncements are stupid white people.

But let's not be one sided - there ARE British people who are totally racist, and see Hindu's, Muslims, Jews etc as a lesser class and 'different' from the rest of us, and it is these people who have caused the whole PC thing to come about. However, there are Muslims who are even worse when it comes to racism. They have huge chips on their shoulder because they expect everyone to be against them, and in some cases, are totally intollerant of anyone who isn't a Muslim. But in the UK, this is just ignored, and i have no idea why.

Again, these are stupid people believing a stupid interpretation of the Quran. Don't hate the game, hate the playas...

Furthermore, if you look at universities etc in the UK, you'll find there are properly run "Asian clubs". I find that to be racist. Simply because it is making a set definition of who can join. Just like in some clubs, there are "Women only lounges". What would happen if someone decided to set up a "Caucasian Club" at University? There would be an enourmous uproar from Asians. Or if a nightclub, there was a "Men Only Lounge"? That'd be deemed the absolute height of sexism.

Yeah, it's pretty bad, but the argument could be made - especially for women only institutions that if they feel more secure being away from men, then we should allow them some security. There are some slimes in our sex. As for clubs, awards and other things that cater to a colour or a religion, well that's unfortunate. But it's a kneejerk reaction to years of the system in this and other western countries ingoring and discriminating against them. Not saying it's right, but it's certainly a little understandable. Idiotic, but understandable.

I personally am friends with alot of Asians. My best mate is Indian (he, incidentally refused to join the Asian Club at University on the grounds that it was racist), and i've got friends from Bangladesh and Pakistan as well. Infact, it's been joked that i'm the 'token' white. Now, primarily, i'm mates with people from India and Bangladesh, as opposed to Pakistan. Now, the guys from India and Bangladesh refer to the people from Pakistan as the "Pakis" or "Hamilton Accies", and they have no bones about it. And the guys from Pakistan don't mind if the people from India and Bangladesh say it. If I was to say it, i'd be severly frowned upon.

Well, that's probably because you share the same colour as someone who uses the word as an insult, and in threats of violence. Get over it. I let my friends call me a cunt because I can be sure they meant no harm by it, but I wouldn't let you.

Similarly, i was walking with 4 of my Asian mates, and a guy who i knew as well as them came up to us, and he was shaking hands and bowing to my mates, but completly ignored me. Why? A matter of race. Is it ok for them to do that? In the scheme of things, it certainly seems to be. However, if he was walking with a selection of Caucasians and i approached them and blanked him and only him, there would be a huge outcry of racism.

He's just rude. Like I said, people are idiots. If they use colour and creed as an excuse to be idiots, don't play their game by rising to it.

So in that long rant, i'm trying to say that PC is a complete joke. Racism exists on both sides of the racial fence, but while there are racists who are Caucasian, there are just as many racists living in this country who are Asian. However, at the end of the day, PC only seems to apply to how Caucasians act, and to an extent, PC seems to be a device that exists mostly to the detriment of the Caucasian Male in society. That's not the fault of the Asians, but it's a hypocritical pandering attitude that exists in local councils and in government, because they believe that the minority must be pandered to. And that's what i hate the most, hypocricy. Everyone should be allowed to do what they believe in, as long as people aren't singled out or abused. Christmas doesn't 'single people out', it is just an event that the majority is involved in. The minority still have their events and that should be fine as well.

As a concept, political correctness need be nothing more than good manners. Be polite, treat other people the way you want to be treated and get on with your life. If other people don't see it that way, their loss.I see my life as a way to have fun and help other people. If I have to be PC to do it, fine. if there are times when PC sucks and goes too far and I can point it out, cool. Not all PC is bad. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water...

[JLM]

Nice to see Big Frank pulling out the 'some of my best friends are from...." line. so, do you call your 'asian' friends 'pakis'?

well you all know my views on the subject and this is exactly why I am a loyal BNP voter

Really? Have you actually read their policies, besides the "white British pe0ple rulz0rz" ones of course?

We support the re-introduction of corporal punishment for petty criminals and vandals

So what's your take on this? Public flogging, maybe chop off a hand or two? Sounds good.

We are against the ‘trendy’ teaching methods that have made Britain one of the most poorly educated nations in Europe. We will end the practice of politically correct indoctrination in all its guises and we will restore discipline in the classroom, give authority back to teachers and put far greater emphasis on training young people in the industrial and technological skills necessary in the modern world. We will also seek to instill in our young people knowledge of and pride in the history, cultures and heritage of the native peoples of Britain.

Creating narrow minded manual workers~! Please.

[Sgt. Ducky]

How many "Muslim", as you call them, countries have you visited? Most of these countries are, in fact, a wide mix of religions. While predominantly Muslim, countries like Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon etc contains a sizeable population of Christians (and various offshoots such as Druze) and Jews as well, all of whom live together in relative peace, unless America or Israel stick their oar in.The Western women who emigrate out there and take up the veil, in general, choose to do so, as a sign of respect to the culture of that community. Believe it or not, there is nothing in the Koran which states that women must be veiled, it is all a matter of choice within that particular community.

[sgmilne]

Actually Ducky, i don't know how well travelled you are, but you'll find if you go to countries where there are muslim poplations like i have, you'll find that women have to cover up, and take note of the word HAVE to, and men are not allowed to wear shorts.That is being highly inconsiderate to visitors.And if you come back with "that's not true", the fact is that it is true as it's happened to me on numerous occasions while on holiday.Linus - the point i'm trying to make is that there is a blame being made on the caucasian man, but the fact is, the non caucasians are just as bad. Whether you accept it or not.Furthermore, i have found absolutly nobody in my own experienced who has been offended by the term coloured. I infact see it as more polite to refer to someone as the "coloured gentleman" than the "black guy". It's like being offended by saying "the guy with the ginger hair". If i was trying to point someone out, and that was their most distinguishing feature, i'd do it. That's not racism, and to think it is is pathetic.As for Molest. I was watching an old Doctor Who story, and the line "And you promise not to Molest us" was used. These days Molest can infer something sexual, and it just wouldn't have been used in that way in a Dr Who story in the 1960s.

[Guest Psybro]

Furthermore, i have found absolutly nobody in my own experienced who has been offended by the term coloured. I infact see it as more polite to refer to someone as the "coloured gentleman" than the "black guy". It's like being offended by saying "the guy with the ginger hair". If i was trying to point someone out, and that was their most distinguishing feature, i'd do it. That's not racism, and to think it is is pathetic..

I don't know any ginger people who'd be offended if I called them ginga twats, does that mean I should be allowed to refer to any ginger-heaired person I meet that way?It is offensive to call a black person 'coloured' because 'coloured' can mean any skin colour other than white. It might not be racism but as Linus says, it is certainly a matter of politeness.

[RMC420]

From my experience, black people want to be referred to as "black", not coloured. As for immigrants, it is they who have to integrate into our culture and accept the way we live our lives - just as they would expect us to do the same if we were in their country.