Chinatown: Mafia Scum Thread

[Ron Simmons]

Chris Stone - Yes, I killed Kenny. Now I'm kinda worried for my own safety, so if there's a town doctor with day action I suggest he get protecting!!

[Teedy Kay]

Chris Stone - Yes, I killed Kenny. Now I'm kinda worried for my own safety, so if there's a town doctor with day action I suggest he get protecting!!

 

You did bread crumb that kill I take it?

 

As I'll say again, you were adamant I was scum come the close of the day, why switch your attentions elsewhere?

[Ron Simmons]

Chris Stone - Yes, I killed Kenny. Now I'm kinda worried for my own safety, so if there's a town doctor with day action I suggest he get protecting!!

 

You did bread crumb that kill I take it?

 

As I'll say again, you were adamant I was scum come the close of the day, why switch your attentions elsewhere?

My vote stayed on Kenny throughout the day, I made a false vote for Bristep at one point to keep Kenny on my side and stop him from switching vote over to me. Kenny was my number one suspect, followed by you. I'll bet my backside that either you or Snake are also a scum member.

[Carbomb]

Sat on the bus on the way to work when something suddenly popped into my head.

 

Kenny was a Triad member, so if I am guessing right with Tri meaning three, the day scum have three members.

 

Triad are the Chinese mafia. I don't think we can infer tri=3 in this case.

Purely for informational purposes and in no way meant to affect the game (it might mean three Scum, it might not), but the name "Triad" originates from one of the more powerful anti-Qing/Manchu dynasty rebel factions, known as the "Three Harmonies Society". Since them, all such factions have been called Triads, owing to their frequent use of triplicate imagery.

[Chris_Stone]

Right, lets cut the speculation and theories for a moment, here is what we know:

 

1) Brownie - Town Watcher - Day Killed - Killed by KILLER 1 (no classification)

2) kenny - Scum - Night Killed - Killed by Killer 2 (Not scum)

 

Now, i think we can agree that both kills were from different roles and Kenny was likely not killed by scum, unless there are 2 groups, it was third party.

 

We know we have at least 2 Killers in the game.

 

We know that Ron had claimed Vig, one of his suspects (and somebody i even said you might consider killing) died - I think it's reasonable to believe him, but questioning him is not wrong at this point we do not have full verification.

 

Now, why didn't kenny protect himself?

 

Well, this one is quite obviously one of two reasons:

 

1) He is not allowed to self protect (On this site this doesn't happen much (has it ever?))

2) He thought another scum member was more likely to be killed than him.

 

Now, 1 doesn't give us any information and that's why I'm going to go with talking about 2.

 

As I'll say again, you were adamant I was scum come the close of the day, why switch your attentions elsewhere?

 

Teedys questioning on Ron actually implicates himself here, in my mind and not because he's questioning him but the content actually works with my reasoning.

Bristep was also a possible vig kill target. If i remember rightly aswell, Kenny's vote on me came when a lot of questions were headed from me to Bristep, Kenny voted in the last day on Bristep, but it was quite obvious that a lynch on Bristep was not going to happen - Distancing? He also maintained that I was a bigger suspect to him than Bristep but he was voting to Bristep as i obviously wasn't going to be lynched... again - Bristep was obviously not going to be lynched either... distancing!!! I also suggested that Bristep was a possible vig target, maybe it was thought the vig would go for him over the other suggestion of kenny.

 

Now, these 2 suspects (and reasons why Kenny would have protected them over himself) take 2 assumptions but i believe both fair to make:

 

a) Kenny was not limited on who he could protect and WAS able to protect himself if he wished

b) The scum, knowing Ron was not scum believed or at least are working under the assumption that Ron is the town Vig.

 

Both reasonable, both possible.

 

FOS: Bristep + Teedy

[Chris_Stone]

Also Teedy - why would he bread crumb it? If he had of done, Kenny would have protected it most likely. Also, if we have any investigative roles they were likely pointed toward Ron anyway (Don't claim it just yet ladies if this is the case!).

[Chris_Stone]

I'd like everyone to answer the following questions:

 

-Do you believe that ron killed Kenny? If not, then who / what do you suspect?

-Do you believe Ron is the town Vig? If not, what is he?

- You're Kenny, you know that you're the doctor, Teedy and Bristep are your partners, Do you protect yourself or one of teedy / Bristep and why? Do either of those 2 in your mind seem less likely to be killed by Ron (we're assuming he is the town vig in this question) than you would have as kenny last night?

-Also a general case study on someone you believe to have been aligned with kenny would be nice.

[Retro Red]

Chris that's a couple of occasions now where you put out feelers for a theory, then within a couple of posts are quoting it as fact.

 

In fact it's 3.

 

1) Day kills went from a possibility to "Oh it must be scum day kill"

2) Vote Reset went from 'maybe it's passive not active' to 'it's passive so that incrimiates bristep'

3) Kenny distancing went from 'Kenny could be distancing bristep and Teedy' to 'Would Kenny protect Bristep/Teedy over himself?'

 

I'm wary of that, coupled by your dancing votes between Ron and I during D1 it makes for suspect play indeed.

 

Let's play the distancing game a little further. Kenny had his vote on you for most of the day phase, without really pushing a strong case on you.

 

Elsewhere. I can't get my head around the Kenny/Ron dynamic. Ron was L-1, and Kenny wasn't on the wagon. He could have hammered and killed off a dayvig. Instead he contributes to a no-lynch, Ron survives and winds up dead.

 

On the flip to that, if Ron and Kenny were scum together, sacrificing your doctor to gain town trust is a helluva gambit.

 

Hell of a gambit. Use the daykill to make people think scum have a day kill (after all, SK isn't going to pop and say "actually it's me" and at worst a vig might pop up and say "Actually no it was me" and the plan fails but no scum detriment there), Ron fakeclaims Vig and their team kill Kenny as a uberbus.

 

Not sure. Right now though

 

FOS Chris Stone

[Chris_Stone]

The thing is Kenny wasn't under much suspicion, no reason to kill him off, hell surely a different member of the scum would have been better dependant on roles?

 

I didn't quote it as fact, the scenario of 'if you were kenny which of these 2 would you protect' was to get an idea of the thought process here.

 

Why on earth would scum sacrifice their doctor? Especially if they know there's someone out their shooting at them? It makes no sense! Also, it's to protect themselves from night kills - they have something to fear at night, which means town MUST have a night killer who can use it often... Hmm, so there's either 3 killers here or the scum have day kills which i'm much more likely to believe.

 

Your point about kenny putting a case on me is noted, I did flip-flop around somewhat and after my suggestion of 'pop bristep or Kenny' and kenny dying revealing scum, it would be great town points if i'm scum but lets face it, we both know you don't truly believe that, Bristep.

 

The point about kenny not jumping on Ron when Ron was L-1 is interesting, why didn't he?

Was he trying to not cast suspicion on himself the way hammering ron would have? Ron could possibly be scum and kenny didn't want to do it but either way, the scum killing off their OWN protection vs the Vig that we now know must exist and they surely would have known through the inclusion of a doctor in their setup exists... that doesn't make sense and you know damn well that it doesn't.

 

I tend to put out feelers, sure but i also think about it more and more, going over my own notes, looking at things of interest - I guess it would be fair to say that i tend to convince myself as i go on, but that's facts and well placed speculation pointing that my ideas make sense, which so far they have.

[Chris_Stone]

He could have hammered and killed off a dayvig

 

You still assume he is a day vig... Did scums kill not hit, or did they kill their own?

If they killed their own, where was the night kill from town? Why do they have a doctor if we don't have one?

 

You are assuming that a kill was deffinatly blocked in that night phase, you have absolutely no evidence of such.

[Dazz]

I'd like everyone to answer the following questions:

 

-Do you believe that ron killed Kenny? If not, then who / what do you suspect?

-Do you believe Ron is the town Vig? If not, what is he?

- You're Kenny, you know that you're the doctor, Teedy and Bristep are your partners, Do you protect yourself or one of teedy / Bristep and why? Do either of those 2 in your mind seem less likely to be killed by Ron (we're assuming he is the town vig in this question) than you would have as kenny last night?

-Also a general case study on someone you believe to have been aligned with kenny would be nice.

 

-I honestly don't know. The two deaths from different situations has made this a very unique and interesting game. The fact that one happened during the day, and the other was a member of scum that got killed has really got me confuddled about where to go with this one. One theory I have is, that, could it be that, there's a rogue scum member? One that has killing ability, and his own win condition? I have no idea if that's even possible, but perhaps that player would be rewarded for bumping off his cohorts, against their knowledge? I'm rambling here, cos, I really don't know what to think at this time, but, in all honesty, Ron seems like he's too easy a target to pick for bumping off Kenny. I don't know who would be my thoughts, but, Ron, I don't think is Scum. I think there may be some people slipping under the radar that we're missing that can be doing their dirtywork quietly and not being picked up on. I'm gonna have a good long hard look at it.

 

- See above RE: Ron, I don't know what to implicate him as, but, I really don't think he's scum.

 

-I would protect myself, keep my own interests at heart first and foremost.

 

- Dunno.. I aint spent enough time with the game yet to get a full picture, but come back to me when I've had a chance to read properly. Had a busy weekend at work, so, i've aught the game in dribs and drabs.

[Retro Red]

"The thing is Kenny wasn't under much suspicion, no reason to kill him off, hell surely a different member of the scum would have been better dependant on roles? "

 

Kenny's last post screamed scum. Easy to explain the choice.

 

Dependant on roles is a key word there too, because we don't know what roles there are. Given that we're looking at a team of 3, if there's a kill deliverer then he couldn't nominate himself, leaving Kenny as the only choice. As I said, it's a hell of a risky gambit. It's possible but not something I'm going to hang my hat on right now.

 

Question still remains though. Why didn't Kenny hammer Ron? It's a helluva conundrum.

 

As for why would scum have a doctor? If there is a SK then they'd need to protect against that too.

 

There might well have been a third, protected against kill attempt last night too, that's something else we need to consider.

 

The dayvig line was a brainfart. I meant nightvig. I don't believe we have a dayvig, I believe we have a SK.

 

And holy shit seriously you're going to come at me with "You are assuming that a kill was deffinatly blocked in that night phase, you have absolutely no evidence of such." bullshit?

 

- You *assumed* that the scum made the day kill with no evidence of such.

- You *assumed* that the vote count was passive rather than active with no evidence of such

 

Let me make this crystal to you. Until proved otherwise, I will continue to assume that scum have a night kill. Whether that's right or wrong there's no evidence to point either way so stop trying to come up with elaborate theories based on conjecture and passing them off as legitimate.

 

I'm postulating theories, but I'm making no actions on them, just vocalising my thoughts for discussion. You're taking them as fact and look like you're trying to paint me as scummy because of it. The only certain thing I've said so far is my suspicion of you.

[Chris_Stone]

Well here's a fact: We have 3 killers in the game, or the scum have a day kill - that's my take on it at least. I don't buy that they killed their own doctor whilst the Vig / SK / fairytale killer is still out there, it's completely opening themselves up to being offed. We can still expect a kill this day phase in my mind which means, Ron will likely die, unless he is the day killer, but hey, no one else has claimed any type of responsibility for the kill on Kenny and whilst i'm not saying they should, that would confirm ron as a liar, which means a garunteed scum kill, wouldn't it?

 

I just don't buy the idea that scum killed their doctor, am i crazy not to?

[Retro Red]

And I'm not pushing it as an idea either. I'm saying it's possible. Just like a prevented scum NK is possible. They can't both be right together, but both are possible. Just like your scum day kill theory. Just like your passive vote count theory. They are theories. You're talking like I'm pushing my theories like a certainty when all I'm doing is putting thoughts out into the ether. You're taking them and painting me as something not town. Know what I call that? Misrepresentation. Plain and Simple. Or maybe I'm being crazy.

[Chris_Stone]

I'm not trying to misrepresent you, at all and i don't think i have - at least no intentionally.

 

What i do find a struggle here is that there are a few things that point to your scum involvement and not it's not just your not believing my theories, which in itself is fine.

 

-Kenny put his vote on your because he supposedly saw it as a more possible wagon, yet still claimed me to be MORE scummy. He didn't put a good case on either of us, as you pointed out.

-You're suggesting the scum killing Kenny would have been a viable option, which i just don't buy and i think you've pushed it enough that you think it plausible and i feel that such would cause confusion.

-You're painting my play as scummy, when i've put plenty out there and lets face it, of all the night actions we know of, there's nothing yet to disprove my theory.

-You were happy to go with the idea that you were being framed due to the L-1 vote reset and lets look at the vote reset a little more:

 

----------------------------------------------

 

Kenny wasn't on the wagon (as you've said) - scum had the means to push that wagon through because kenny was free to put his vote there at least. Although, what we have to think about here is even if he had of put his vote here, if it was automatic it wouldn't have counted and the votes still would have been reset due to the condition being met - The scum still had plenty of time to make the wagon on Ron go though - there was no rush to throw the hammer in and perhaps they'd hope to keep someone seperate from the wagon anyway - split their viewpoints ofc.

They had Ron right there to their knowledge, there was still time left, of course they'd not just hammer right away and i don't think that in itself hurts Rons standing at all.