MMA: Past Fight Discussion

[Egg Shen]

Chuck's prime was probably ran from 2002 and the Belfort win up until the 2nd Jackson loss, i know he lost twice in that time but it was against prime Rampage and prime Couture (that was probably Randy's greatest performance), Chuck was on fire during that time, a few victims were questionable but Chuck didn't fuck about, he was just destroying people.

[jimufctna24]

Yeah the PED thing came up, the theory I read was that he could not cycle his PED's well enough as he was used to juicing freely in Pride. I have heard others, one being that he lost motivation and father time caught up to him (he was well into his mid 30's come his UFC run) But I think the latter would not be true as I doubt 6 months you can go from being a killer into being over the hill unless something serious happens to you.One he fixed in later UFC fights was that he did not train in a cage, so the cage was foreign for him in the first few fights. I can see that distorting a striker's movement and range, that Cro Cop relied upon he liked to attack from a distance with his kicks. Maybe it is possible that the cages shape and size did not suit him even after he trained in it more.There is the theory from UFC fans that he was well protected and was made to look better than he was in Pride, I disagree as his game was very tight and convincing enough for me to consider him one of the best Heavyweights ever, but his best wins in Pride in his weightclass was the favorable match-up he had against Barnett, Aleks and Heath Herring. Wanderlai and Sakuraba were all a lot smaller than him. Randleman and Coleman were both ancient and dated when Cro Cop beat them as well, so that claim is not as outlandish as one may think. In many ways Cro Cop was at his best in a losing effort against Big Nog and taking Fedor into deep water but not doing enough to warrant a argument he could win the verdict.I think it could be a combination of matter, the one thing I will stand by despite the above paragraph is that the fighter who fought Kongo to a tiresome points loss, is not the same who stormed the OP GP a year before, no matter if the opposition he faced in said GP was questionable.

[jimufctna24]

On Liddell, what are we calling his prime years? The period in between the 2 losses to Rampage? (04-07) If so I don't see anything on his record in that period which makes me think he'd beat Henderson. Henderson is similar to Couture but can take a lot more punishment and, back then, his punching was a bit more refined and the H Bomb wasn't as obvious.

Yep 2004-2007Liddel game was a lot tighter back then, he could fight on the back foot and was more patient. Liddel like Cro Cop in Pride was a general in the cage with his striking. I disagree Liddel's technique was less refined, he would throw combos at scary speed, if he got a opening his counters would be pin point and accurate. He would throw straight punches as well and mix things up, unlike his winter years. Hendo lost to Misaki at this period and Lil Nog scored a submission win over him, many thought Hendo was done at this point or at least scaling off. If it took place in 2005 it would be a foregone conclusion in my mind.Hendo when faced with a fighter at the top his game usually crumbles. Liddel at his peak is in the top 5 LHW,s I have ever seen. Along with Jon Jones present day, Rampage-2007, Shogun-2005 and Machida -2008-2009. Hendo whilst having more longevity than some of these, has not reached a level where I think he could beat them. Rampage at his peak beat him clearly, Anderson at his peak finished him and recently a off-form Machida and Rashad beat him also. Wanderlai Silva beat him when he was at his peak as well. Hendo is a bit of a grave digger when you look at it, Fedor was shopworn, Wanderlai had lost a step since 2005 when Hendo beat him in 2007. Again, like I said it is only the names on Hendo's resume that warrants his inclusion in the all time great list and his amazing longevity, not the actual performances he has given out. I guess the Shogun fight is the exception, but that for me was a favorable points win over a guy who would have beat him if he was not so injury prone and training with the right people.Liddel vs Hendo, I think would resemble Liddel vs Couture 2 and 3, just with a little more threat from Hendo landing with power. I think Liddel would get a points win, as it it also forgotten that Liddel had great cardio in his peak as well if you watch the Horn fight. Edited June 19, 2013 by jimufctna24

[wandshogun09]

I still cannot pin point why Cro Cop went from the summit of Pride to UFC mid-level in the space of 6 months. I have heard many theories though.

There's a few possible explanations I think. Lack of PEDs - this is pure speculation, I don't put much stock in it as the reason for Mirko falling off. He may well have dabbled in Pride, I'm sure a lot of guys did. It could be a factor but I don't think a lack of magic tablets would be the sole reason for such a massive decline. Complacency/not training in a cage - this is a huge part of it for me. As Curry said, Cro Cop was riding a career high coming off the Pride GP win. And Pride's heavyweight division was always thought superior to the UFC's back then. I'm sure Cro Cop expected to breeze through everyone lower than the Randy/Nog level. He massively underestimated the difference of a cage and a ring.He did finally start using a cage, but by then it was too late because...Gonzaga's shin - I've said before, I truly believe the whole Gonzaga fight (not just the KO) mentally raped Mirko. Everything that could go wrong went wrong. He was taken down on the first kick he threw, systematically beaten up on the ground with elbows which coming from Pride would be an alien experience for him, then the fight was stood up (unjustly) and put where Cro Cop in theory would have the advantage, and he got wiped out by his own favourite technique. For a dominant fighter like Mirko, there's no coming back from that shit. He was never the same again. How else do you explain his next fight? Kongo is a decent striker but his style is tailor made for Cro Cop on paper. He came into that fight looking in fantastic shape as well so it's not like he wasn't putting the gym hours in, he just couldn't pull the trigger. He wasn't the same fighter as he was pre-Gonzaga IMO. Injuries - this came after the Gonzaga/Kongo losses so it's not the reason he declined. It certainly put paid to any chance of a return to form though. He fucked his knee up in 2008 and returned to the UFC too soon after surgery, looking out of shape and had the eye poke fight with Mostapha Al-Turk. Now he wasn't just gun-shy due to the Gonzaga KO, he'd lost his main weapon which was his kicks. Seriously, look at all his fights after knee surgery. He was never really effective with kicks again. He'd land them, even to the head sometimes, and guys wouldn't even go down much less out. He lost all his speed and couldn't get the power in his kicks anymore. He also almost completely stopped using his right hand at all. Remember that clip of him backstage on a UFC, I think after the Roy Nelson fight, where he was constantly twitching and moving his right arm? Possible signs of nerve damage.So you have a fighter in his late 30s, who always relied on aggression and being a fast heavyweight and had pinpoint accuracy with his punches and devastating power with his kicks. Now he was gun-shy, one armed, and lost his speed and kicks. The fact he's still winning K-1 tournaments, however far the level in K-1 has dropped, is a testament to just how fucking good the man was as a fighter.I don't think he was protected at all in Pride. Remember Cro Cop was new to MMA and was fighting top guys almost off the bat. He fought well enough against Nogueira and Fedor to show he was top level. Certainly the #3 in Pride HW, and #1 and #2 are two of best heavyweights of all time so no shame there. Barnett on paper was a tough match for him as well, due to his huge experience advantage and being much bigger.

Yeh i sometimes wonder what would have happened with Crocop had he defeated Gonzaga? was there promise of a title fight if he'd won that fight? i know Gonzaga got a title shot coming off that win, but was down how emphatically he beat Mirko? i can't really remember.

I think it was pretty much a cert that we'd get Randy vs Cro Cop if he'd beat Gonzaga. I'm sure Dana said as much going in, and Goldberg and Rogan kept on about it. They should have just made the fight after he beat Eddie Sanchez. Fuck it. Sanchez wasn't great but neither was Marvin Eastman, didn't stop them giving Rampage the title shot at Chuck. And Cro Cop had the GP win just before he fought Sanchez.

If I remember correctly, this was around the time where every main event prediction Randy made seemed to come true and he said he'd prefer to face Cro Cop over Gonzaga due to the cage factor.

That's right. He picked Rampage over Chuck, Forrest over Shogun, Rampage over Hendo and Gonzaga over Cro Cop. Even he didn't pick Serra over GSP though. Edited June 19, 2013 by wandshogun09

[jimufctna24]

Agreed with above post but for one point. Barnett was tailored made for Cro Cop.Barnett was a okay wrestler, not enough of a power wrestler to trouble Cro Cop. Barnett as much as rate him as a grappler was not much of a athlete compared to other Pride Heavies, he did not have the speed to get into Cro Cop's face to stop his flow and distort his striking.Besides a scramble or a slip, no way was Barnett getting Cro Cop to the ground in the Pride days, Cro Cop could fight and just pick his spots or take a risk and stop Barnett. Both of which he did in the times he fought in Pride.

[Egg Shen]

i need to rewatch the first Crocop/Barnett fight, i don't remember it. I need to dig out some of the old DVD's.As for thinking the UFC should have put Crocop in with Couture after the Sanchez win, i don't disagree. That would have been massive for the hardcore fans then, i guess they just thought a Crocop headkick KO would have been the perfect set up to go into it...Gonzaga at that time was fodder, nothing more, nothing less. There was a sneaky suspicion going in that Gonzaga may cause problems but nobody forsaw (is that a word?) what happened. I was there that night, and the hushed silence that fell on the crowd after the KO was fucking eerie.

[jimufctna24]

I could not believe it when Cro Cop got knocked out by Gonzaga, April-May 2007 was chock of shocking moments, with Serra beating GSP and Liddel getting knocked out by Rampage. People forget that Gonzaga was on his way to winning before the head kick, he was slicing up Cro Cop with GnP before the ref ordered a baffling stand up.

[wandshogun09]

April-May 2007 was chock of shocking moments, with Serra beating GSP and Liddel getting knocked out by Rampage.

Yeah, 2007 was 'Year Of The Upset' in MMA. You had Randy coming out of retirement to dominate Sylvia, Serra KOing GSP inside a round, Gonzaga Cro Copping Cro Cop, Houston Alexander mauling Jardine in about 30 seconds (Jardine was coming off battering Forrest at the time and Houston was a green, mid 30s guy making his debut), Forrest submitting Shogun, Jardine battering Chuck Liddell's ribs and legs purple for 15 minutes.Rampage knocking out Chuck was only a surprise for me in that it happened so quick. I never really got why everyone was so shocked that Rampage won though, or considered it an upset. Rampage beat Chuck down to the point his corner had to throw in the towel in their first fight. I don't know why people were favouring Chuck so much in the rematch.

People forget that Gonzaga was on his way to winning before the head kick, he was slicing up Cro Cop with GnP before the ref ordered a baffling stand up.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at before. The way that fight played out was soul destroying for Cro Cop. If you look at his stoppage losses before that, he could use the old 'just got caught' line for pretty much all of them. He was battering Nog before getting 'caught' in the armbar, Randleman 'caught' him early. This was different though, he was beaten everywhere. And the elbows were something he'd never experienced before in either K-1 or Pride.

[jimufctna24]

Regarding Rampage vs Chuck, it was a current form that enabled Chuck to be such a heavy favorite.Rampage did not look good against Eastman, almost lost to Lindland and had not looked good since 2004. Liddel had breezed past Couture, Babulu, Horn and Tito in impressive fashion scoring stoppages in all of them.I can see why Chuck was favorite, but there were signs in the second Tito fight that he was waning a bit.

[wandshogun09]

I think I actually did have Lindland winning that fight against Rampage. As for Rampage vs Eastman, I thought people were harsh on his performance. He had a lackluster first round, maybe the old 'UFC jitters', but he put Eastman away without much trouble in the second. I thought people were harsh on Cro Cop's showing against Sanchez the same night as well. Just because he didn't stop him with the headkick, he still schooled him and finished in round 1. Actually, I think Rampage not looking like a world beater against Eastman is what landed him the title shot. He was saying after that fight that he wanted another fight before challenging Chuck, to get back in the groove. But the UFC went ahead and made Chuck-Rampage 2. I think Dana probably saw it as a good time to possibly catch Rampage out of form and get Chuck his win back. A similar thing happened with Shogun. People act now like Chuck was an easy fight for Shogun, but that's not what people were saying at the time. Dana was absolutely trying to set Chuck up with a showcase fight there and it backfired. Shogun had just beat Coleman and looked pretty awful in the process, Dana was backstage asking Shogun to fight Chuck before Shogun had even got his arse in the shower. It was on his video blog, and I remember thinking 'fuck's sake, let the fucker get his gloves off before you're booking his next fight at least'. Seemed quite unprofessional to be honest. He'd never have ran after Chuck or Forrest straight after a hard fight, slammed a camera in their face and put them on the spot like that would he? I'm convinced Dana saw how shit Shogun looked that night and saw it as a good name and a scalp to put in Chuck's win column.

[jimufctna24]

Rampage also had some lackluster outings in his later days in Pride-2005/2006. Getting a gift verdict over Ninja Rua, losing to Shogun and looking flat against cans.I think you have a point that Dana tried some favorable match making to assist his favorites, blew up in his face with Shogun he seemingly changed from potentially being a has-been on the chopping block in early 2009 to entering his second prime and ruining the Machida era. Quite some turn around.Fun and forgotten trivia, the rumor was the UFC were going to give Chuck a day off and instead of fighting Rampage instead fight Dean Lister in a gimme fight. I am glad they went for Rampage as Liddel vs Lister would have been a bit of a joke.

[Egg Shen]

Crocop's debut was poor but it was down to Eddie Sanchez back-pedaling the whole fight, he was terrified.Rampages final days in Pride were marred by him 'finding god', it was a weird time, it was like someone stole Rampage and replaced him with a watered down imposter. The fight with Lindland was quality though and i too think i scored it for Lindland, ill find my copy and rewatch.

[wandshogun09]

Yeah, Dana misjudged Shogun as being done I think. He'd come back from a huge layoff and surgery, so when he fought Coleman he was basically knocking the cage rust off. With another camp he was looking in great form against Liddell. And Shogun's always performed better when he's been active.Never heard that Liddell vs Lister thing before. Jesus.

[jimufctna24]

I remember at the time people expected Chuck to win and Shogun be cut and for him to fade away from MMA as one of its greatest flops. I am glad it turned out the way it did.I understand despite the war that was Shogun vs Hendo, that Shogun post 2010 is a shadow of what he was in the Machida fights, and nowhere near the supernova (as Mauro used to call him) in the Pride days.Funny thing about Liddel is, when Rashad cracked his chin he could not even compete on a acceptable level. Whatever is said about Wanderlai, his prime ended around 2005 but has managed to stay competitive ever since, just not becoming the fighter he was in the Ramoage, Saku and Arona wins.

[Egg Shen]

i diagree in a way Jim. Chucks downfall was rapid, but he never really dimished skill-wise, Chuck was still looking pretty sharp till the very end, his punch resistance just disappeared (though a few of the KO's was on the end of would have ko'd anyone), even in his last fight against Franklin he looked great until he walked on that right hand.