MMA: Past Fight Discussion

[wandshogun09]

Good to see Rashad getting a bit of praise.

Rashad has a resume of wins that is most impressive including Rampage Jackson, Dan Henderson, Tito Ortiz, Forrest Griffin, Thiago Silva , Michael Bisping and Chuck Liddel. Evans even outclassed young gun Phil Davis for 5 rounds 18 months ago, which is a underrated scalp to say the least.

Thinking about this though, as good a resume as that is, you can make cases/excuses for all those wins possibly being tainted. Rampage and Liddell you could argue were past their best when Rashad beat them, Hendo maybe as well. Tito definitely was. Many though Bisping beat Rashad. Thiago almost knocked him out. It's all pedantry and splitting hairs though. Rashad has a fantastic record. You could go over most fighters records and pick holes if you looked hard enough and he could only beat the versions of these guys that were in the cage with him. Forrest was in good form coming off the Rampage and Shogun fights though. And Davis was a very impressive performance. Despite Davis being a bit of a one trick pony, Rashad dominated him at that one trick.

make no mistake Machida in 2009 was the best 205'er to ever enter the Octagon other than Jon Jones.

Machida was scary back then. People forget. He had kind of the Jon Jones aura back then. Not only could you not imagine him losing, guys could't even hit him for fuck's sake!That's also something Shogun doesn't get enough credit for. He ended all that. He was the first to figure out Machida and the first to hand him a loss. And that was at a time where no-one wanted to fight Machida. Shogun taking Machida's '0' is rarely brought up but it was a huge accomplishment. Especially if you know the backstory of Machida's dominance beforehand and Shogun coming back from double knee surgery and getting to the title.

[jimufctna24]

The wins over Liddel and Rampage I let off, despite not coming in either's absolute prime, Rashad was a modest underdog in both. Rampage had not being ruined when Rashad met him, it was not say the Rampage that fought Bader. Page was coming off two decent wins over Jardine and Wanderlai and did actually care about the Rashad fight, even if his training methods were limited at best.Liddel people thought was a nightmare style for Rashad, and Chuck whilst not in 2006 form, had recovered after a long layoff after beating Wanderlai and sorted his personal life out a bit if you believe rumors. Rashad for me finished off Chuck that night and ruined his once granite chin forever.I agree Shogun kinda tainted Machida as a fighter, Lyoto has never been the same and only at times flashed signs of his old form.

[CurryAngel]

I think the first Shogun fight really changed the way Machida fought in a bad way. In all his previous fights he was being praised for being "elusive" to the point where Rogan called his title win the start of the "Machida era". I think Shogun showed Lyoto that there was a way to figure out his style and that inturn made him a more aggressive fighter in the rematch.People who once praised his elusiveness now called him "boring" and maybe psychologically forced him to be more aggressive. Ultimately, that aggression brought him out of his comfort zone and cost him his title. The Rampage fight I scored for him but I think if he'd have fought his normal fight I think he'd have frustrated Rampage and won a clear decision.It's been nice to seem him begin to return to his roots and I still think he has the best chance of beating Jones. If he can avoid the elbows and keep it standing I think he's got a 30% chance of winning.

[Egg Shen]

nah, people were calling Machida boring before the loss to Shogun, up until the Thiago Silva fight people were shitting all over him...martial arts fans were hooked, but casual and the majority of mma fans were not on board at that point.

[CurryAngel]

Yeah you're probably right. I just found after the Evans fight all of a sudden everyone seemed to really appreciate what he was doing in the cage. More HL videos were popping up on Youtube and Sherdog (I know) started a ton of threads like "Machida >>>>> Fedor".A dodgy decision win coupled with the consensus that Shogun solved the "Machida riddle" seemed to make the hate for Machida amongst the general MMA fans worse than before.

[Egg Shen]

yeh it wasn't until Machida started finishing people that people appreciated his work, he was (and still is) elusive but he can lack aggression at times. When Machida attacks though it's one of the most thrilling sights in the sport, he's fucking deadly.

[wandshogun09]

Liddel people thought was a nightmare style for Rashad

Now you mention it, I also thought that. Looking back and knowing the road Chuck's career took after Rashad, it's easy to forget he was thought by most to be the heavy favourite going in. People were already looking past Rashad to a potential Forrest vs Chuck title fight in the December. Or even a rematch with Wanderlei, who was coming off mauling Jardine and was favoured to beat Rampage a third time by most fans. It's funny how it all works out.I agree that Rashad was the one who murdered Chuck's chin. I know the thought is that a chin usually fades from a culmination of long-term damage and that makes sense, but Rashad certainly sped up the process and drove the final nail in. Even after Rampage knocked Chuck out, Chuck still ate bombs off Wanderlei. After Rashad is when Chuck's punch resistance really seem to just disappear. Shogun and Franklin are dangerous strikers but the shots they took Chuck out with were the type of shots Chuck used to eat and fire back from. He was done the second his chin met leather. I'm glad he walked away when he did. Although I'd pick Chuck to handle Tito every time if they met 100 times until they were 60 years old, with how Chuck's chin was at that point, I'd have hated to see Tito jab him dead or something stupid if they fought again.I still remember being speechless when Rashad landed that deathpunch. Wasn't there rumours that Chuck shat his shorts, such was the velocity of that KO? Like his arse muscles just short circuited or something and he filled his shorts? It's been an urban myth for years, probably bollocks.

[jimufctna24]

Liddel people thought was a nightmare style for Rashad

I still remember being speechless when Rashad landed that deathpunch. Wasn't there rumours that Chuck shat his shorts, such was the velocity of that KO? Like his arse muscles just short circuited or something and he filled his shorts? It's been an urban myth for years, probably bollocks.

Not heard that one, but would not shock me. Tim Sylvia is the premier pants shitter on the UFC though. Forrest vs Liddel ideally was what Dana wanted for the New Years show, and in retrospect it could have been a monster business wise.I would have liked either Forrest on points or Liddel by KO, depending on if Liddel could clip him early.

[wandshogun09]

Forrest vs Liddel ideally was what Dana wanted for the New Years show, and in retrospect it could have been a monster business wise.

Definitely. Timing is everything. If they brought Chuck and Forrest out of retirement in 2013 and did that fight, I'm sure it would do good numbers. But in 2008 that fight would have been huge. Chuck was still a superstar back then and had just beat Wanderlei Silva in one of the greatest fights in UFC history. Forrest wasn't a massive cock yet, he was the people's champ, really popular and his name value was higher than it had ever been, coming off the Shogun win, a stint as TUF coach and the title win over Rampage. Add in the cool little backstory of Chuck being Forrest's coach on TUF 1, the old teacher vs student story, and you have the recipe for a big PPV success.Not to mention, it would have happened at UFC 92. A card which had a loaded undercard with a Big Nog vs Frank Mir co-main event (a fight which was boosted by them coaching TUF leading in) and also Wanderlei vs Rampage 3 (a fight people were really into at the time, it probably got more attention than the any other fight on the card amongst fans. This fight probably also attracted more viewers than usual in an odd way because people were curious what would happen with it being the first fight for Rampage since he'd lost his title, didn't sleep, lived on energy drinks and went looney in his van). UFC 92 was a massive success without Chuck. Looking up the numbers it did 1 million buys and to date is tied with UFC 148 (Silva vs Sonnen 2) at #7 on the all-time biggest drawing UFC PPVs table. But at that time, a Forrest vs Chuck headliner probably would have added a fair amount of buys to that PPV.If you look back, as good as the UFC were doing on PPV back then, they had some bad luck with big fights falling through. I remember in the summer of 2007, all the Pride guys were getting signed (well, all but one), there was still hope for Fedor, and everyone was creaming themselves about how massive 2008 was going to be. It seemed inevitable that 2008 would be the biggest year ever for the UFC, with dream fights galore. Fedor vs RandyChuck vs WanderleiShogun vs Rampage 2Wanderlei vs Rampage 3Fedor vs Cro Cop 2Penn vs Gomi 2Randy vs Cro CopChuck vs ForrestChuck vs ShogunRandy vs NogChuck vs HendoAll of these seemed to be on the cards. We got some of them but a few things threw spanners in the works. Not getting Fedor was the big one obviously. Randy walking out, Cro Cop went crap, Shogun's knees going to shit, Rashad killing Chuck. Gonzaga killing Cro Cop.I remember reading, I think in summer '07, that the UFC were expecting their 3 biggest fights of 2008 to be Randy vs Fedor for the heavyweight title, Rampage vs Shogun 2 for the light-heavyweight title (Shogun was expected to destroy Forrest and become a big star in the US), and Chuck vs the winner of Rampage/Shogun for the title (clearly expecting/hoping Chuck to be back in the mix in 2008).

I would have liked either Forrest on points or Liddel by KO, depending on if Liddel could clip him early.

Yeah, Forrest wasn't so beat up and shopworn back then. He was fighting good and as we know now Chuck was starting to decline. It's an interesting one though, I could see Chuck tagging him early doors and putting him away. But if Forrest did what Jardine did, and just blasted Chuck with leg kicks and body kicks (and Forrest's leg kicks were very solid) I could see him winning the points game. It would have definitely been exciting either way.

[jimufctna24]

Agreed, so many fights went to shit. Even Chuck vs Wanderlai took some wrangling to set, Chuck had to beat Jardine to get to Wanderlai but they dismissed that after Chuck lost.They got luck with Big Nog getting a staph and still fighting to lose to Mir. If Nog would have won, which I think he would if he was healthy, Lesnar vs Mir 2 would have not happened in mid 2009 and set such a record that I doubt will ever be broken on PPV. Also, Lesnar vs Mir was not meant to headline UFC 100, instead it was UFC 98 in May. One of them I think Mir got a minor injury and they set it back two months to UFC 100, which gave the fight chief support with GSP, Bisping and Hendo to help produce that monster buyrate.Cro Cop vs Randy was the one that really got away, that headkick by Gonzaga put paid to that as said.

[wandshogun09]

Also, Lesnar vs Mir was not meant to headline UFC 100, instead it was UFC 98 in May. One of them I think Mir got a minor injury and they set it back two months to UFC 100

I completely forgot about that. Yeah, they announced it during UFC 96, they had Mir and Rashad there and said Mir was out, the fight was being moved to 100 and the new main event for May would be Rashad vs Machida. I'm sure Rashad vs Machida was originally being targeted for UFC 100 before all that, so the injury bug actually helped there.

Cro Cop vs Randy was the one that really got away, that headkick by Gonzaga put paid to that as said.

I'm still gutted about that. It's not even that I think Randy vs Cro Cop would have been that good a fight, chances are Randy would have cagefucked him the whole night. But I still wanted to see it. I want to see all the top names in an era fight. I was always disappointed other fights got away as well like this one for instance;It would have happened as well, if Chuck beat Rampage at UFC 71.

[Egg Shen]

it does suck looking back at fights we never saw, we still get dream fights now carried over from the UFC/Pride days and some of them more than live up to expectation, but others you just think 'if only this happened 5 years ago'...Mir/Barnett is probably gonna be one of those.

[jimufctna24]

Chuck vs Hendo is a funny one.Liddel at his best I take all day over any version of Hendo, far more diverse striker with enough reflexes and takedown defense to combat what Hendo offered. Liddel in his lazy days of pre 2004, or 2008-2010 I think Hendo would beat him.Its hard to say who would have won in 2007 if Liddel had not had his chin cracked by Rampage. I would lean toward Liddel, but I cannot be sure. It is sad when you see how vibrant and coherent Liddel is up until 2007, it is like a different person. He just looks more alert and aggressive instead of the stuttering and mumbling mess he became. Hendo has always stayed his steady but unspectacular self in his longevity, never showing in my opinion the consistency, dominance or talent to be an all time great, but creating a impressive resume due to his longevity to warrant entering the debate. If Liddel, Rampage and Shogun would have been more consistent and not faded away for various reasons, I think Hendo would not be viewed with such acclaim as they are better fighters who peaked for a shorter length of time.I actually think if Cro Cop had beaten Gonzaga and come in showcasing 2006 OW GP form, he would have beaten Couture. I still cannot pin point why Cro Cop went from the summit of Pride to UFC mid-level in the space of 6 months. I have heard many theories though.EDIT: Good memory Wand, I remember Mir coming on and explaining his injury and Rashad stepping in.

Edited June 19, 2013 by jimufctna24

[Egg Shen]

Yeh i sometimes wonder what would have happened with Crocop had he defeated Gonzaga? was there promise of a title fight if he'd won that fight? i know Gonzaga got a title shot coming off that win, but was down how emphatically he beat Mirko? i can't really remember. Randy/Crocop would have been some fight though, you always fancy Randy to game plan to take out a striker like Crocop, but with Crocop's takedown defence and lazer guided precision i think he'd have stopped Couture via strikes.What theories have you heard Jim? one no doubt is the performance enhancing thing? it really was a strange time when Pride merged into the UFC, the message boards were raving about how the UFC guys were going to get killed and it simply didn't happen, so many disappointments, i think Rampage was the only guy who came over and carried over the aura he had in Pride. Shogun, both Nogueira's, Gomi, Yamamoto, Wanderlei the list goes on. everybody struggled.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Ebb

[CurryAngel]

I personally think Cro Cops heart wasn't fully in fighting when he first came to the UFC. He'd finally won the big one in Pride after saying he'd retire if he lost, was hyped to the moon by the UFC and I really think he expected to waltz in there and win the belt without even training in a cage until after the Gonzaga fight.If I remember correctly, this was around the time where every main event prediction Randy made seemed to come true and he said he'd prefer to face Cro Cop over Gonzaga due to the cage factor. As said, Randy was a master game planner and I think he'd have found a way to beat Cro Cop much the same way he beat Gonzaga.Randy - Fedor would have ended first round armbar though ;)On Liddell, what are we calling his prime years? The period in between the 2 losses to Rampage? (04-07) If so I don't see anything on his record in that period which makes me think he'd beat Henderson. Henderson is similar to Couture but can take a lot more punishment and, back then, his punching was a bit more refined and the H Bomb wasn't as obvious.

Edited June 19, 2013 by CurryAngel