MMA: Past Fight Discussion

[wandshogun09]

but this was before Bas became a walking parody and at least tried.

 

Shit off Jim. Bas is still awesome. He had an off night at WSOF the other week and he's not as sharp commentating these days, probably because he doesn't do it regularly anymore, but Bas is a good egg. I don't get why people have turned on him, I see a lot of negativity on Bas online now and I don't get it. I think he's one of the most likeable personalities in MMA.

 

I agree on Quadros though. Won't happen but I'd like to see him and Mir replace Anik and Florian. Maybe he's just not that arsed about commentating these days? If he was then surely somewhere would use him.

 

Mauro Ranallo can fuck off. He's better than Anik in that at least he shows some emotion but I've grown to loathe the sound of his voice, his catchphrases, his shouty-ness. I didn't mind him in Pride but I can't stand him now.

[jimufctna24]

I only judge him on WSOF fighting and what I have heard elsewhere. He is still a great guy, but I hear he has phones it in on other shows he has done in the past. I would say he does not do his research, but he presents a MMA news show (one I have not watched for years mind) so I take it he knows what is going on. Maybe he is still good on Inside MMA, but on WSOF he was a beat of a walking parody. Someone online compared him to Krusty The Clown.

 

Ranallo was not a catchphrase/pop culture merchant in Pride, so I am not surprised you liked him then and not know. He at least has some energy as said, which is more than we can say for the often pissed on Jon Anik.

[wandshogun09]

I've finally started working through another MMA career so I thought I might as well review as I go. This time I'll be covering the in cage/ring escapades of the one, the only...I'll let the screaming Pride lady do it properly...

 

 

Aaaaaaantonioooooooooo...

 

 

Rrrrrrrrrrrrrooooooooodrigooo...

 

 

Minotaaaaaaaaauroooooooo...

 

 

No-guei-raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!

 

 

Despite him being one of my favourite fighters, I haven't seen a lot of his earlier fights. I've only seen one or two of his pre-Pride outings so I'm looking forward to watching some of the early stuff.

 

Anyway, bit of background. It's well documented that Big Nog didn't have the most straight-forward start in life. He was born on June 2nd, 1976 in Vitoria da Conquista, Bahia, Brazil. There was two of him;

 

 

That's him with his twin brother, Antonio Rogerio Nogueira. Later known as Little Nog to MMA fans because he competed a weight division below his big bro. They are identical twins. And their parents gave them the same first name just to add to the confusion. Only their middle names are different - Rodrigo and Rogerio.

 

I didn't know this (why would I?) but they also have a sister, Juliana who goes by the moniker 'Baby Nog'. Here she is with Bas Rutten;

 

 

Seems she's inherited some of her brothers' skills as well;

 

 

Growing up, their Dad was an accountant. Their Mom owned a gym, which naturally led to the twins, Big Rod and Little Rog, growing up being involved in sports. They took up Judo at just 4 years old.

 

At 11 years old Rodrigo (Big Nog) was hit by a truck while he was playing outside with his brother during a family party. They were playing near a parked truck, not realising the owner was inside about to reverse. Rogerio jumped out of the way but Rodrigo wasn't so fortunate and the truck reveresed almost completely over his body.

 

Big Nog: I remember we were playing behind the truck. And the guy came in the truck. And he put in reverse, and then the wheels come across my body. From this side to this side. I couldn't feel my legs. And my Dad took me in the car to the hospital.

 

Little Nog: He kept trying to stand up, and he would fall down again. So much blood. In a couple of seconds, he passed out.

 

Dad Nog: Rodrigo was such a strong kid, even though the truck ran over him, he didn't break any bones in his body. But his ribs punctured his lung and his liver. They had to open up his body. He was caught between life and death.

 

The list of injuries is scary to read. It's amazing he survived. He was in a coma for 4 days. Punctured his liver, crushed his kidneys and lungs and had a torn Achilles tendon.

 

He also lost a big chunk of his back muscles, which is why you see a big hole/dent thing on his back to this day when he fights.

 

 

Big Nog: I remember the day I woke up, I felt pain everywhere. I've got about twenty stitches on my stomach, about thirty in my neck, twenty on my back. My legs, about fifty.

 

Sister Nog: We prayed for him every day. It was very hard on us, too ... very emotional but we stayed together as a family and watched him turn around his life. It was a miracle.

 

Dad Nog: They had to open him up four more times, to pull out these tumours that were being created in his body. He was going through hell. All the doctors that were at the hospital really didn't think that he was going to make it. It's a miracle to still have him here today.

 

Big Nog: To start to walk again, to have a normal life, took one year. Nothing compares to when you are in coma and you hear voices and think you are dying. Then you come out of the coma and hear more voices saying you will not walk, not play sports, not be normal. And all the time your mind is fighting back saying, you will be strong, you will fight. I think I have been fighting ever since.

 

He had to learn to walk again from scratch which is amazing when you look at what he went on to do. At 14 he returned to martial arts training. He took up Judo again. Around this time he also started boxing under trainer Luiz Dorea;

 

 

Dorea still trains him today, and has also worked with Little Nog, Anderson Silva and Jose Aldo, as well as being almost solely responsible for the improvement in Junior Dos Santos' boxing skills in recent years.

 

He took Dos Santos from this;

 

To this;

 

To this;

 

Dorea knows what he's doing.

 

Nogueira found martial arts was a great form of rehab for his physical injuries and rebuilding strength after the damage his body had been through. He began to train in a variety of martial arts.

 

 

He took up Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu when he was 17 under Guilherme Assad. He entered various grappling tournaments in the mid 90s and did very well, usually finishing in the top three and often coming first place. He eventually started training under Assad's BJJ teacher Ricardo De La Riva which eventually led to him earning his BJJ black belt in 1999.

 

Carlson Gracie's gym had links to the De La Riva school so Big Nog was often around MMA fighters in the early years and wanted to try his hand at it. So he did.

 

And the rest is history.

 

Big Nog would make his MMA debut in June 1999 against a fellow by the name of David Dodd. Dodd was new to MMA himself at the time with a 1-2 record. Although the 1 win was a 46 second submission over Jeff Monson so that's not to be sniffed at.

 

Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira vs David Dodd

12.06.1999 - World Extreme Fighting 6

 

Well this is a good start. Bit weird this, the video I've found on YouTube is Nogueira vs Dodd right enough, but it says it's from the ADCC US Trials with a November '99 date. For those who don't know ADCC isn't MMA it's grappling only, but on Nog's MMA record his first fight is listed as being against Dodd in June '99 for WEF. I don't know if they fought twice or if someone's cocked up Nog's record and/or the info on the video.

 

Actually, this must be the WEF fight because it's in a ring as opposed to on a mat like in the ADCC's. I think. Oh the fight is clipped as well which doesn't help.

 

Whatever. It doesn't fucking matter. Nog takes this guy down and schools him. Toys with him a bit and looks like he's basically using the fight as practise. Then he finishes with a nice kimura.

 

Easy money.

 

Nog vs Dodd;

 

Although Nog's MMA record has it down as a submission by crucifix. This was a kimura. Fuck knows. Not the best start to this review.

 

For those wondering, Dodd retired with a 4-7 record after getting flying kneed into a swift nap by Vernon 'Tiger' White back in 2000.

 

Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira vs Nate Schroeder

09.10.1999 - World Extreme Fighting 7: 'Stomp In The Swamp'

 

Stomp In The Swamp

 

OK, now to add to my confusion, this is WEF but in a cage. Maybe the last fight wasn't WEF after all. And the ring announcer says Nog has a record of 5-0-1. Eh? Fuck it. I give up. I'll stick with Sherdog's record and call this his second pro fight.

 

Anyway. Nog is fighting Mr Schroeder

 

 

Not that one obviously. This Schroeder has a lovely pair of boobs on him. Apparently trained with Pat Miletich's team at this point. And did go on to beat Paul 'Fear The Consequences' Buentello later in his career which appears to be his best win.

 

Nog wastes no time getting the clinch, you could see he was still in grapple-only mode at this point. He lands the nice trip takedown which became a bit of a trademark for him later in his career, and almost takes the back. Schroeder's clearly out of his depth here.

 

Nog casually passes guard and into side control, Schroeder attempts to buck out of it and Nog takes his back and sets up an armbar from the back. Schroeder, to his credit, fights it for a bit and tries to pull out but Nog straightens the arm and gets the tap in around 2 minutes.

 

Again, easy night's work.

 

Nog vs Schroeder;

 

In the post-fight the interviewer says "well congratulations you're 2-0 now". So is he 2-0 or 5-0-1?

 

Nog's career is cabbaging my brain.

 

Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira vs Valentijn Overeem

28.10.1999 - RINGS: 'King Of Kings' - King Of Kings '99 - Tournament First Round - Block A

 

OK, someone I recognise. Valentijn Overeem, the older brother of Alistair of course.

 

 

Although much less successful than his little (lol) brother, and having a shite record (32-31 as of today), he did go on to score submission wins over Randy Couture and Babalu. He's also beat Ian Freeman and Ray Sefo. He's always been inconsistent though. Even at the time of this fight he was 9-7.

 

He gets off to a decent start stuffing Nog's initial takedown attempt, it's all downhill from there though because Nog manages to hang onto his legs and is successful on his second try. Landing right in side control. Shit for Val. Nog tries to go for the arm which Overeem defends, then he switches his attack and locks on a tight arm triangle and there's no way out. It's over in under 2 minutes again.

 

Nog vs Overeem;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hpdU3E3XG0

 

You can really see even here, how confident Nog was in his BJJ. Even though his first 3 wins have all been quick he's not rushing anything. It's a different style completely to say Ronda Rousey's. You can see how patient he is in setting up his next move.

 

So Nog advances to the next round. He didn't have to wait long, later that very night he'd be facing;

 

Yuriy Kochkine!!

 

Yeah, me neither.

 

Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira vs Yuriy Kochkine

28.10.1999 - RINGS: 'King Of Kings' - King Of Kings '99 - Tournament Second Round - Block A

 

I know nothing of this Kochkine bloke so I looked him up. There's little info other than his record (7-4-1 and last fought in 2005) and that he's Russian. He does hold 2 decision wins over a young Alistair Overeem though.

 

Fight gets underway and Nog belts him with a sweet right hand to the mug. That's the first solid punch of his career. He then grabs hold of Kochkine and pulls guard. Within seconds he's out from under Kochkine and he's on his back slapping on the armbar, flips him onto his back and finally straightens the arm. I don't think Kochkine even had time to tap, he just screamed and the fight was stopped. 40 seconds.

 

Nog vs Kochkine;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYliobaJ_PA

 

He will move on to the quarter finals.

 

But before that, he would head back to the US to compete for the WEF's vacant Superfight title. Against Jeremy Horn;

 

 

Horn is definitely the biggest test of Nogueira's career to this point. I mean this was 13 years ago and Horn's record was 37-5-4 at the time. Massive amount of experience, held a win over Chuck Liddell and had been in with prime Frank Shamrock and done well. The mad thing is Horn wasn't even halfway through his career at this point. He had a further 69 fights after fighting Big Nog. Sixty Nine!

 

Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira vs Jeremy Horn

15.01.2000 - World Extreme Fighting 8: 'Goin' Platinum' - WEF Heavyweight Superfight Title

 

This should be good. I've never seen this despite being a big fan of both fighters so I'm really looking forward to it. The fight is a 3 rounder but the rounds are 8 minutes each.

 

Yes, Quadros is on commentary. Nog comes out aggressive and eats a good right hand for his efforts. A brief clinch battle ensues and Nog scores his trip takedown again. Nog for the first time in his MMA career, has trouble getting much done on the ground here. Horn is a grappling wizard in his own right and does a good job making sure Nog can't pass his guard.

 

Nog actually seems to get a bit frustrated at this and actually tries a Sakuraba jumping double stomp. It's quite a sight to see.

 

They get stood back up and Nog lands some decent punches and a good knee before taking Horn back down. He finally gets side control but can't get anything done from there and Horn hits a fucking beautiful sweep which lands him in side control. Nog quickly escapes though and winds up on top again in half guard. That was a great sequence.

 

It dies off after that though with Nog trying to pass guard, getting frustrated and just standing up kicking at Horn's legs. Much to the crowd's displeasure. The ref stands them up and business picks up, Nog lands a bunch of solid punches and Horn returns fire with a few big elbows to the face. They're both looking pretty knackered as the round ends.

 

 

Round 2 is dull as fuck for large periods. The first half consists of a knackered Nog scoring takedowns, being unable to do anything and standing up, rinse and repeat. Total stalemate. It livens up a bit when Horn lands a nice headkick midway through though. It picks up a bit after that with Nog turning up the heat with his boxing, and Horn landing a few more headkicks. Nothing really significant though. Some nice grappling at the end of the round.

 

 

Round 3 starts off more promising with Nog hurting Horn with some punches. He seems a bit more aggressive but the pace is still slow. Horn lands a spinning back kick to the body which seems to piss Nog off as he starts battering him with punches. They go into a sloppy but fun exchange of punches and Nog gets another takedown into side control. The last half of the round is Nog on top with Horn defending.

 

We go to the scorecards, which come back unanimous for Nogueira.

 

Oddly, Quadros and the other commentator spent most of the fight talking like Horn was winning comfortably and Quadros even said at the end he thought Horn won. I don't get that at all. Nog had all the better positions on the ground, the stand up was close but he landed more on the feet and Horn, aside from a few headkicks and the odd sweep, didn't do enough to win any of the rounds in my eyes.

 

Was a pretty disappointing fight. I had pretty high expectations as well. I think had it been 3x5 minute rounds instead of 3x8's this would have been better. It was good in places, good technique on the ground from both, but the extra 3 minutes a round seemed to just take that little bit too much out of them both. Also, Nog had finished all his previous fights in about 2 minutes so it's kind of understandable why he tired.

 

It had it's moments but it wasn't great. Oh well.

 

Nog vs Horn;

http://www.videolog.tv/video?781509

 

To end on a more positive note, I didn't know about this story, last year Big Nog tracked down the man who ran him over and they met. 25 years later.

 

 

"I was always very curious to meet him," said Big Nog.

 

"It was God who helped us," said Big Nog. "It would be a pity if I stopped everything to eleven years old. Just have to thank my dad and my brother, who gave me a lot of strength. This message of strength was very important to me. I carried it inside me and I managed to overcome many other things."

 

Twenty five years later Big Nog came face to face with the driver, Jubervaldo. They had never met. The fighters traveled to Paramirim for the reunion, 200 miles from Vit

Edited April 5, 2013 by wandshogun09

[Egg Shen]

Haha nice wand.. ill have a read of that on my lunch break later.

[jimufctna24]

Sorry to break up Wand's review of Nog, but I was reminded of a forgotten man in MMA the other day.

 

Phillip Miller. Sherdog named him the number one "what could have been" I have only seen him fight once at UFC 40 against Mark Weir and he did not stand out to me that much. He was decent, but nothing special. Though he does have a lengthy unbeaten record and a win over a young Jake Shields before he retired in his prime in 2003.

 

So anyone want to fill me in on their opinions on him?

[wandshogun09]

Just rewatched Roger Huerta vs Clay Guida from 2007, and was reminded of Jim's underachiever posts in here.

 

What happened to Huerta? Rhetorical question I suppose because it seems it's pretty much consensus that fame and big-head sydrome is what happened. But he really looked like a potential massive star for a while there. Exciting fighter, he had the Mexican thing going for him, a childhood sob story, good looking, he was likeable. He was mega marketable hence him making the cover of Sports Illustrated back when MMA fighters never got that type of gig.

 

I doubt he'd ever have been the man, especially in 2007-09 which was smack-bang in BJ Penn's prime, but he could have been the UFC's Gatti figure.

 

He beat Guida (one of my favourite fights ever) and started making demands, went Hollywood, tried MMA again and never regained his momentum. He's lost 6 of his last 7 fights, went 1-4 post-UFC and hasn't fought since being soccer kicked into oblivion in OneFC last year.

 

At just 29, he's pretty much done.

[jimufctna24]

Agreed.

 

Guida reminded me a lot of a young Oscar De Le Hoya in 2007. The UFC loved him and planned to break the Mexican market with him, as they had no other cards to break that market with really at that point (unless you count Diego Sanchez. I am shocked he is still only 29, the guy must have peaked at what 23 or 24 then.

 

I get he would have never been Champ with BJ knocking about, but if he would have stuck about and protected from the Grey Maynards of the world, BJ vs Huerta in Mexico could have been something a bit special atmosphere wise.

 

Typical guy who maybe believed got given too much too soon, and that is a real shame.

Edited May 10, 2013 by jimufctna24

[Egg Shen]

last i heard of Huerta, he was gonna take part in some kind of jiu jitsu superfight on a beach somewhere in Thailand or some shit?

 

The UFC definitely tried protecting him a little when he was there, but he did seem like the whole package...the worst thing he ever did was that poxy Tekken movie, it all went downhill from there.

[wandshogun09]

Everyone liked him back in '07 as well. Men liked him because he could put on awesome fights, girls liked him because of his looks, he had both the Mexican and American support, the media liked him, the UFC were high on him. He had it all covered.

 

Guida was his first real hard test, he was losing as well until he went for broke in the 3rd. I remember everyone really buzzing about him after that win. Then he got the Tekken role and reportedly started pulling the big shot routine, demanding 'BJ Penn money'. BJ was the champ and one of MMA's biggest names and Huerta was the new kid. That must have got Dana's back up.

 

Then he lost to Florian and wanted out to go to Hollywood, he had one fight left on his deal so they sat him out for a year then fed him to Gray Maynard on his way out.

 

It's a shame it all went sour. I was always disappointed we never got Huerta vs Tyson Griffin back then when they were both having FOTN performances for fun.

[jimufctna24]

The Biggest Star in MMA history

 

If I were to say to most MMA fans or non fans for that matter, "the biggest star in MMA history never fought in the UFC" they would probably think I had mistakenly forgotten Kimbo Slices brief UFC run. If I was to say the "the biggest star in MMA history now has a losing record" I am sure I would get more shifty looks. If I was to say "he now partially throws fights for money" people may think I was going mad

 

But its all true, in case you may not knowing who I am alluding to here is a picture.

 

 

 

The Sapp craze/fad in Japan from around 2002-2004 was bigger than UFC was at their 2009/2010 peak in the states by a hefty margin. MMA was bigger than in Japan at this time then UFC has achieved anywhere else. To put it into perspective 54 Million people watched Sapp face Akebono under K1 rules in 2003 compared to the highest audience UFC pulled was 8.8 for Cain vs JDS. Considering America also has a 320 Million population to draw from compared too Japan's 125 Million, it makes things even more impressive. In Brazil, UFC may get 20 million from their 200 million population, but add the TV audiences from Brazil and America together and they are only half of Sapp's in Japan.

 

Now the numbers game is out the way, why was Sapp such a draw and why has he declined so much as a draw to where he now throws fights for cowboy money marks across the world? Firstly Sapp just looks like a star and the Japanese loved him as they rarely experienced a man like Sapp. Some thing Sapp's race come into it, and that is probably true. Sapp also had charisma to spare and easily made a crossover TV star. Couple with the MMA boom of the time with K1 and Pride and the timing was more than perfect to give him a platform to become the star he did.

 

Now, Sapp did have to be protected which is why he faced cans and smaller men at the start of his Pride days, he was a bit of a ringer though in these days as Josh Barnett explains on Pride decade he did not know what he was doing but Eric Poulston was in his ear to nurture Sapp's inexperience and make do with his strength and physical gifts. Sapp was not a thinking fighter and did not have to be at this stage. The Big Nog fight is a tribute to this as Sapp ignorantly just tried to throw Nog around and put zero thought into his work, it almost scored a upset and whilst Nog's seasoning and technique scored him a win, Sapp came out of it the star and not Nog to the mainstream audience.

 

At this stage he was already a star in K1 who got dibs on Sapp as well, and Sapp was the focus of K1 expanding their audience. The glory days of the 90's were gone with Hoost getting on a bit and Hug passing away, so they went the novelty route which scored them their biggest audience in the short term. They modified rules to favor Sapp (leading to him beating a ancient Hoost twice), and despite the loss to Nog he was still seen as being 100% legit until he met a prime Cro Cop in K1 who broke his orbital bone. Despite this Sapp was still a massive star, I have read he was spread too thin with his wrestling, K1 and MMA and I can believe it if you look at his K1 and MMA records he fought very often at this stage. They milked his appeal all the way.

 

Sapp stayed legit to a degree and a massive draw until around May 2004 when he fought the unheralded Fujita under MMA rules in K1. Losing to someone as respected as Nog and Cro Cop can be forgiven, losing to Fujita was not. Despite Fujita rocking Fedor a year before, he was not regarded as a world class talent at this time. Sapp was taken out of his comfort zone of ignorance and exposed if you watch the fight, he looks lost as the fight does not go his way and he is faced with a wrestler who he could not throw around or bully.

 

 

Ray Sefo exposed him further by beating him under K1 rules, his first loss in K1 that did not occur because Sapp got himself disqualified. He took a layoff from K1 rules and fought to a draw with J

Edited May 19, 2013 by jimufctna24

[Egg Shen]

good read Jim.

 

I was lucky enough to be around when the Sapp thing was exploding, it was genuinely exciting, it really was a case of people knowing he sucked as a fighter but just seeing a monster get by on pure brute strength and aggression was frightening stuff. When he smashed through his first couple of Pride opponents the feeling was a genuine 'who the hell is going to stop this guy?'.

 

He made a mockery of K-1 tradition too, he was beating legends with little or no technique and it split the fanbase down the middle, K-1 went from being the supreme standup competition in the world to being a bit of a freak show laughing stock...i think that's why the Crocop thing was such a big deal at the time, it felt like a real victory for the real K-1.

 

In recent years Sapp of course has gone beyond a joke, the downfall one of farce but Bob Sapp did enough to cement his name into a little chunch of MMA/K-1 history.

[jimufctna24]

Thanks EBB

 

I think it was you who made the Lesnar/Sapp comparison, I disagreed at the time but in retrospect it is actually fairly accurate. Both had a fast rise and fall, both had traditional fans against them, massive drawing cards and both at one point had a aura of 'who the hell is going to stop this guy?' as you put it

 

Only difference is Lesnar did not go beyond the joke as a fighter, as he quit after Overeem. Also you could argue Lesnar was a tad more legit with his NCAA Championship. Other than that there are direct similarities.

[Egg Shen]

yeh there's similarities there, it's that imposing physical feature. Lesnar's sheer size and ability to take fights where he wanted them made him a frightening prospect, Sapp never really had that but when you have a 300lb mass of muscle swinging bear arms at you i can imagine it was 'shit your pants' time, especially when you see that Sapp was fed smaller guys to start out with.

 

I know it's not the popular way of thinking but im still of the belief that Brock Lesnar would have gotten found out if he'd taken a slower route to the top, he would have hit a road block along the way and we saw what happened when he did, he collapsed in a ball of panic and flailing limbs...similar in essence to what's happened to Bobby Lashley. I don't care if you disagree with me, that's what i think would have happened

[jimufctna24]

I know it's not the popular way of thinking but im still of the belief that Brock Lesnar would have gotten found out if he'd taken a slower route to the top, he would have hit a road block along the way and we saw what happened when he did, he collapsed in a ball of panic and flailing limbs...similar in essence to what's happened to Bobby Lashley. I don't care if you disagree with me, that's what i think would have happened

I think it is a popular opinion with most fans, I have seen it battered around elsewhere. I of course disagree , but we will never know for sure either way. I always hold onto how he readjusted after Mir landed flush with that big knee in their second fight.

[wandshogun09]

Yeah, the Sapp/Lesnar comparisons are valid. The one thing that separates them is that Lesnar never was a joke. He came in at the top level and fought nothing but top level in the UFC. And he did well. He was fucked by 3 things in my opinion -

 

1) He got into MMA late. Yeah he had his NCAA background but to come in at 30 or whatever he was and fight experienced former champions right away was ballsy. But by him being a late starter he never really had time to develop skills in other areas.

 

2) Ties in with 1. He was one dimensional, struggled striking and the top fighters had passed him by in skills.

 

3) His fucked guts. I don't care what anyone says, this had to negatively effect his training and career in some way.

 

There's no shame getting caught by Mir in your second fight, or getting battered by Cain and Overeem. For what Brock had to work with and the time he had to do it, Brock did pretty fucking good.

 

Sapp has become more and more a joke with each "fight". I don't even bother watching anymore.