General politics discussion thread

[patiirc]

Poll Tax wasn't introduced here, it's still the Rates system.

 

Unemployed - both the Tories and Labour in their current & last periods of power were happy to massage figures to suit their agendas, Tories in the 80's did try to get some unemployed on to IB to try and keep UB figures artificially low.

 

Can't comment about interest rates except that they were definitely higher back in the 1980's than they are now. Main cost I've seen shoot up in the last few years has been house prices which in some places went insane. Rising price of crude oil also affects many other parts of our cost of living too, and that's going to be a problem in the long term regardless of who is in power - better to tackle that problem sooner rather than later and reduce the UK's dependence on importing fossil fuels.

 

 

Quagmire, where were you living at this time? All of the UK got the 'Poll Tax' until it was replaced c.1993 with what we have now.

 

 

Regarding the Unemployed, Afaik the Tories didnt chop off those unemployed who have been a kicked off jobseekers or those who are considered econmically inactive (those out of work, not actively looking for a job inc single mums who cant get child care and look for work, those who havent paid NI contributions ( self employed and so on) or simply those completely disillusioned with the whole process)

 

The unemployment stats are currently compiled by the Office of National Statistics .How Unemployment is measured.PDF is from them showing what is and what isnt included in the rates. at the end of 2008/2009 (adjusted for seasonality on top of everything else) they guess that there are total over 9 million unemployed about 5.4 percent of the population.

 

The Jobless totals were higher under the Tories. I cant show on the graph below, but I would dearly like to show when the 1980s recessions and 1990 recessions correlated to the massive jobless figures and then stuff like how the'New Deal' affected New Labour's figures

 

 

Quagmire FYI crude oil is approximately half of what it was when it peaked during 2008 at approximately $140 a barrel and the prices only really rose and crashed within a years period. Oil Prices (Move your mouse under the graph to the 5yr option to see the price blip)

 

Petrol has gone up 30p a litre over the last yearArticle on Petrol Prices with graphs. Its not the price of crude thats causing it though. Ive not seen one answer that cover it some blame the recession closing refineries some claim greed some claim network problems and so forth and so on.

 

 

Unmetered Inflation is rampant, inflation is based on a bag full of ingredients as an index to apparently follow trends on purchasing but only covers some 650 goods not inc fuel and others so to say zero or nearly zero or neg inflation is a misnoma

[Glen Quagmire]

Quagmire, where were you living at this time? All of the UK got the 'Poll Tax' until it was replaced c.1993 with what we have now.

Back then the same place where I am now, Northern Ireland. The Poll Tax/Community Charge was never introduced here, the rates system stayed in place until recently with a move over to a new system similar to Council Tax in Britain. So it is incorrect to say that all of the UK got the "Poll Tax". I have a view as to why it wasn't introduced in NI, but it would be very dark, sinister and delve into conspiracy theory mode.

 

Regarding the Unemployed, Afaik the Tories didnt chop off those unemployed who have been a kicked off jobseekers or those who are considered econmically inactive (those out of work, not actively looking for a job inc single mums who cant get child care and look for work, those who havent paid NI contributions ( self employed and so on) or simply those completely disillusioned with the whole process)

 

The unemployment stats are currently compiled by the Office of National Statistics .How Unemployment is measured.PDF is from them showing what is and what isnt included in the rates. at the end of 2008/2009 (adjusted for seasonality on top of everything else) they guess that there are total over 9 million unemployed about 5.4 percent of the population.

It really depends from who and what you hear about what governments use to measure for statistics. As I see it they will always sugar coat stats to try and put themselves in the best light possible with the public, but there's only so much you can try and manipulate figures before you're seen in public with your pants on fire.

 

Also economics & statistics would not be my strongest points, but if about 9 million people are technically unemployed and that accounts for 5.4% of the UK population, that means the population of the UK is over 160 million! Or have I lost it somewhere? Sounds very Daily Mail-ish...

 

The Jobless totals were higher under the Tories. I cant show on the graph below, but I would dearly like to show when the 1980s recessions and 1990 recessions correlated to the massive jobless figures and then stuff like how the'New Deal' affected New Labour's figures

 

As I've said both sets of the last governments have been happy to manipulate figures and come up with schemes to suit their ends. Labour has "New Deal", the Tories had "YTS" though I'm not sure if the latter were included in official unemployment stats.

 

Quagmire FYI crude oil is approximately half of what it was when it peaked during 2008 at approximately $140 a barrel and the prices only really rose and crashed within a years period. Oil Prices (Move your mouse under the graph to the 5yr option to see the price blip)

Yep, but one big side effect of that spike is that prices can so easily go up with "oil price rise" being a justification but they never come down as quick. The temporary VAT reduction saw a corresponding slap on of petrol duty to equalise costs at the pumps which AFAIK was not rescinded at the start of this year. Sterling is not as strong as what is was two years ago either, particularly against the US Dollar and Euro which also accounts for a rise in the cost of importing oil (hence a corresponding rise at the pumps without the actual cost of a barrel being near what it was in 2008) and it also means that imports are more expensive - and the UK imports quite a bit. All these things gather together bit by bit to rise prices especially of imported products.

 

Petrol has gone up 30p a litre over the last yearArticle on Petrol Prices with graphs. Its not the price of crude thats causing it though. Ive not seen one answer that cover it some blame the recession closing refineries some claim greed some claim network problems and so forth and so on.

See above. It will be interesting to see the reaction international markets have to the outcome of the General Election.

 

Unmetered Inflation is rampant, inflation is based on a bag full of ingredients as an index to apparently follow trends on purchasing but only covers some 650 goods not inc fuel and others so to say zero or nearly zero or neg inflation is a misnoma

As I've said, I'm no finance expert even though I can normally deal with numbers OK. I sometimes wonder why the world monetary system is so complex and if there is any real need for it to be like that? Again has the measurement of inflation changed over the years and decades (other than inclusion of certain goods?)

[David]

Alistair Darling has caved in to a demand that British taxpayers underwrite at least

[Glen Quagmire]

If Greece need help from the IMF, the the UK would be involved anyway as they would contribute to any IMF loan. Very hard for the UK to escape from the current problems in Greece at the moment even without any obligations like those in the Lisbon Treaty.

[JNLister]

Opening line:

Alistair Darling has caved in to a demand that British taxpayers underwrite at least

[David]

Eurosceptic MPs will renew calls for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty when it comes up for debate again in Parliament in the coming weeks.

 

Conservative MP Douglas Carswell said he and colleagues planned to use a minor technical change to the treaty to trigger a public vote.

 

This is despite Prime Minister David Cameron ruling out a referendum.

 

The amendment - expected to be finalised by EU leaders in June - will require ratification at Westminster.

 

The Foreign Office says it is only a "technical adjustment", rebalancing the number of MEPs between member states.

 

Mr Carswell, an influential voice on the Eurosceptic right of the party, told BBC One's The Politics Show he remained committed to a public vote.

 

"Given that we've given an undertaking as a party to hold a referendum if there was any further revision to the European treaties, we need to honour the promises that were made before the election and stick to that, and hold that referendum."

 

Last November, William Hague - now the foreign secretary - said the Conservatives would not hold a referendum on the treaty.

 

This prompted accusations from Eurosceptics in his own party and beyond that he had reneged on a "cast iron" guarantee made in 2007.

 

The Lisbon Treaty, a substitute for the rejected European constitution, is often described as an attempt to streamline EU institutions to make the bloc of 27 states function better.

 

But its opponents see it as part of a federalist agenda which threatens national sovereignty.

 

Many people had thought the treaty was all wrapped up when the Czech president signed it last November.

 

But MEPs have agreed an amendment adjusting the composition of the European Parliament, which held elections last year before the treaty came into force.

 

The amendment allocates 18 extra MEPs to 12 countries, including one extra MEP for the UK. It will require approval throughout the EU.

 

In a statement, the Foreign Office said a decision was expected on the changes by the end of the Spanish presidency on 30 June.

 

"If this protocol is agreed, primary legislation will be needed in the UK to ratify this technical amendment to the Treaty.

 

"This is a technical change to the Treaty relating to numbers of MEPs and would not transfer any power to the EU."

 

Edward Macmillan Scott MEP, who defected from the Conservatives to Liberal Democrats, said the prime minister should "slap down" the Eurosceptics in his party.

 

"They ought to recognise that in government, [Mr] Cameron was going to try and run a serious policy on Europe."

 

Under the terms of their coalition deal with the Liberal Democrats, the Conservatives have pledged a referendum on any further transfer of powers to Brussels.

It's an interesting idea, but I doubt they'll get anywhere with it, much less see a referendum on the subject.

[Glen Quagmire]

Eurosceptic MPs will renew calls for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty when it comes up for debate again in Parliament in the coming weeks.

 

Conservative MP Douglas Carswell said he and colleagues planned to use a minor technical change to the treaty to trigger a public vote.

 

This is despite Prime Minister David Cameron ruling out a referendum.

 

The amendment - expected to be finalised by EU leaders in June - will require ratification at Westminster.

 

The Foreign Office says it is only a "technical adjustment", rebalancing the number of MEPs between member states.

 

Mr Carswell, an influential voice on the Eurosceptic right of the party, told BBC One's The Politics Show he remained committed to a public vote.

 

"Given that we've given an undertaking as a party to hold a referendum if there was any further revision to the European treaties, we need to honour the promises that were made before the election and stick to that, and hold that referendum."

 

Last November, William Hague - now the foreign secretary - said the Conservatives would not hold a referendum on the treaty.

 

This prompted accusations from Eurosceptics in his own party and beyond that he had reneged on a "cast iron" guarantee made in 2007.

 

The Lisbon Treaty, a substitute for the rejected European constitution, is often described as an attempt to streamline EU institutions to make the bloc of 27 states function better.

 

But its opponents see it as part of a federalist agenda which threatens national sovereignty.

 

Many people had thought the treaty was all wrapped up when the Czech president signed it last November.

 

But MEPs have agreed an amendment adjusting the composition of the European Parliament, which held elections last year before the treaty came into force.

 

The amendment allocates 18 extra MEPs to 12 countries, including one extra MEP for the UK. It will require approval throughout the EU.

 

In a statement, the Foreign Office said a decision was expected on the changes by the end of the Spanish presidency on 30 June.

 

"If this protocol is agreed, primary legislation will be needed in the UK to ratify this technical amendment to the Treaty.

 

"This is a technical change to the Treaty relating to numbers of MEPs and would not transfer any power to the EU."

 

Edward Macmillan Scott MEP, who defected from the Conservatives to Liberal Democrats, said the prime minister should "slap down" the Eurosceptics in his party.

 

"They ought to recognise that in government, [Mr] Cameron was going to try and run a serious policy on Europe."

 

Under the terms of their coalition deal with the Liberal Democrats, the Conservatives have pledged a referendum on any further transfer of powers to Brussels.

It's an interesting idea, but I doubt they'll get anywhere with it, much less see a referendum on the subject.

If the likes of the Daily M**l and the Telegraph kick up enough fuss over it, I wouldn't rule anything out.

[David]

If the likes of the Daily M**l and the Telegraph kick up enough fuss over it, I wouldn't rule anything out.

Don't be ridiculous.

 

The Daily Mail have long been a parody of themselves, and their articles on the EU play right into the hands of those who are pro-EU.

 

They print their nonsensical stories about prisoners being allowed to roam free all over Europe, certain types of televisions being banned & the traditional lighbulb being scrapped and do nothing but promote the idea that anyone who even dares to question why we haven't had a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty is basically Roderick Spode from Jeeves & Wooster.

 

The sad thing is, some unfortunate souls actually buy into it.

 

In other news, a Labour MP considers the upcoming leadership contest to be a tad dubious;

 

Labour MP John McDonnell has accused the party of organising a "discredited" leadership contest.

 

The left-winger said he wanted to stand but would struggle to get the nominations of 33 MPs - required under rules announced on Tuesday - in time.

 

The Hayes and Harlington MP said this would exclude many "rank and file" Labour members from choosing him and reduce the chances of a "fresh start".

 

Only ex-ministers Ed and David Miliband have said they will stand for leader.

 

Former schools secretary Ed Balls and former health secretary Andy Burnham are also thought to be considering a bid.

 

The result of the contest is due to be announced on 25 September, Labour's ruling National Executive Committee has decided.

 

Mr McDonnell, who wanted to stand against Gordon Brown for the leadership in 2007 but failed to receive enough nominations from MPs, said it was wrong to reduce the period for nominations to four days, from 24 to 27 May.

 

He said this was not enough time for the many newly elected Labour MPs to weigh up the merits of different candidates and for potential contenders to canvass for support - although he said he was still determined to try.

 

"I think it undermines the democratic process from the outset," he told the BBC News Channel.

 

"I thought we had learnt those lessons."

 

By "curtailing" the nomination process, Mr McDonnell said Labour officials were effectively "fixing" the contest in favour of establishment candidates such as David Miliband.

 

"It prevents people like me coming forward and securing nominations. This just alienates people from the beginning," he added.

 

The backbench MP said the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats had held more open contests when they elected David Cameron and Nick Clegg as their leaders.

 

There has been longstanding anger within sections of the party that Gordon Brown was elected without a contest in 2007.

 

Mr McDonnell, who chaired the Socialist Campaign Group of Labour MPs in the last Parliament, is a leading voice on the left of the Parliamentary Party.

 

Former cabinet ministers Ed Balls and Andy Burnham are thought to be weighing up their options amid calls for the contest to be as competitive as possible.

 

Several senior Labour figures have ruled themselves out, including acting leader Harriet Harman, former Home Secretary Alan Johnson and prominent backbencher Jon Cruddas.

 

The new leader will be elected by a ballot of Labour MPs, MEPs, party members and members of affiliated organisations such as trade unions and socialist societies.

 

Ms Harman has defended the election rules, saying they will lead to a "dynamic" contest, with up to four million people eligible to vote.

 

The ballot will take between 16 August and 22 September, with the result being announced on the first day of the party's conference in Manchester.

 

Hustings will take place in June and July with some backbench MPs pressing for the candidates to square up in a TV debate.

Edited May 18, 2010 by David

[Glen Quagmire]

If the likes of the Daily M**l and the Telegraph kick up enough fuss over it, I wouldn't rule anything out.

Don't be ridiculous.

 

The Daily Mail have long been a parody of themselves, and their articles on the EU play right into the hands of those who are pro-EU.

 

They print their nonsensical stories about prisoners being allowed to roam free all over Europe, certain types of televisions being banned & the traditional lighbulb being scrapped and do nothing but promote the idea that anyone who even dares to question why we haven't had a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty is basically Roderick Spode from Jeeves & Wooster.

 

The sad thing is, some unfortunate souls actually buy into it.

The bit in bold. The Daily M**l may well be the subject of ridicule by those who don't wish to be associated by it (even those in the Conservatives), but it does have the word in the ear of some influential people and it is at present the second most popular daily newspaper (newspaper is stretching it a bit) in the UK. It's core readership is quite vocal even if it is borderline self-parody - they're more likely to go down to their MP's surgeries and DEMAND why there hasn't been an EU referendum by now, even if they can't tell the difference between Lisbon and Lisburn.

[David]

It looks as though we won't see any cuts at all this year, but will see double cuts next year.

 

I'm not too sure what the point of that is, although hopefully it'll see some serious unrest within the Scottish population.

 

The finance secretary has said he is likely to put off Holyrood's share of the UK government's

[Dynamite Duane]

I caught some of the state opening of parliament earlier. Funny the Queen talking about faster broadband connections lol

 

All that pomp and regalia is such a contrast to the election campaign with TV aired debates American presidential election style.

Edited May 25, 2010 by Dynamite Duane

[Steveo2007]

I caught some of the state opening of parliament earlier. Funny the Queen talking about faster broadband connections lol

 

All that pomp and regalia is such a contrast to the election campaign with TV aired debates American presidential election style.

I love the whole routine of the Queen's opening of Parliament. So grand and over the top, but I thought it was superb. Some good plans ahead imo, still don't get this fascination with everyone having super fast broadband however.

[alexander]

The Queen wants to be able to have a massive .gif as her sig on the UKFF.

[JNLister]

still don't get this fascination with everyone having super fast broadband however.

 

So they can close GP surgeries and hospitals and just have some geezer on a webcam e-mail a prescription for pennicillin.

[Glen Quagmire]

I caught some of the state opening of parliament earlier. Funny the Queen talking about faster broadband connections lol

 

All that pomp and regalia is such a contrast to the election campaign with TV aired debates American presidential election style.

I love the whole routine of the Queen's opening of Parliament. So grand and over the top, but I thought it was superb. Some good plans ahead imo, still don't get this fascination with everyone having super fast broadband however.

Simply it's infrastructure. The UK is hardly third world in terms of broadband provision to the general population at present, but it does lack behind in certain places. Broadband over phone lines (e.g. BT Wholesale) is well developed and most people can get at least an "up to 8Mb" service via ADSL, but beyond that is limited - the 21CN that BT Wholesale is upgrading its network on is based on ADSL2+, which is barely more modern now in technology terms than recordable DVDs. Virgin are the only ones really driving fibre optic cable at present and that's only in some of their cabled areas, BT have their plans for Fibre to-the-home and Fibre to-the cabinet, but that plans to only service cities and larger towns only in the next few years. Wireless broadband coverage, wherever it's by WiFi, 3G HSPA or other technologies, is patchy, expensive and not as reliable compared to cabled solutions.

 

I wouldn't call 2Mbps "super fast broadband", maybe ten years ago, but applications now make higher bandwidth demands despite better compression technologies e.g. video-on-demand not to mention connection tap-offs from the line into the home and contention issues.

 

Mobile data provision is also quite poor as well not only in terms of provision but also coverage. As an example, where I live is hardly the wilderness but at home I can receive no 3G services, T-Mobile's 2G signal is too weak and the other three GSM operators only have GPRS which is a pain in the arse when using a smart phone, at least Opera Mini makes browsing bearable. Vodafone are planning to roll out EDGE across all 2G base stations by the end of the summer, though I'm on O2 - at least I've a Vodafone SIM which should be useful for data use on my laptop away from home. Contrast all of this to when I was in Australia for a while not too long ago - nearly 50km from a town of around 200 people in the outback and I was able to watch live streaming video on my mobile! So the mobile operators in the UK definitely need a kick up the hole, but it'll probably be until the 800MHz band is released for mobile use (and by this point it'll likely be 4G) in around three years time that we'll see a good mobile broadband service in the UK.