General politics discussion thread

[Kiffy]

Ya know what?

I can't help noticing a more than coincedental similarity between young tommy and our previous moron young happ hazzard, I have a feeling he's going to ignore the things that just got explained to him and pop up spouting rubbish in the same way in a day or two in a very similar fashion.

Could be wrong of course, but that's very unlike me.

[patiirc]

If you agree with the point I'm making why do you need links?

You're a perfect example of someone being shit on by the system who is clearly being refused benefits for no good reason! You are one of my links!

http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.d599.extract

There's another one.

The attack on the benefits of people who are clearly unfit to work is possibly the most foul thing being perpetrated by our current government, I have a feeling you misread my point!

 

Yeah, but I havent been shit on by Atos, as per your link. The medicals I've had all agree I'm unfit for work, its the DWP that dont agree. Hence why I wanted to check the 40% claim as I'm curious.

 

I also don't think that it is a Government thing as I alluded to in my post above. It is the department themselves who are unprofessional, inefficient and a complete waste of space, coming from my direct dealings with them.

[Tommy Atkins]

Ya know what?

I can't help noticing a more than coincedental similarity between young tommy and our previous moron young happ hazzard, I have a feeling he's going to ignore the things that just got explained to him and pop up spouting rubbish in the same way in a day or two in a very similar fashion.

Could be wrong of course, but that's very unlike me.

Erm, how is that any different to what you do?

 

And I have not, nor never been called happ hazzard.

 

I just think its bollocks that this kid gets to portray himself as a working-class hero when his dad was a millionaire and chose to splurge all his money on houses and private education instead of thinking about the future.

[Loki]

For sure. The problem is, it also still acts somewhat was a poverty trap. I know a chap who's got 3 kids, and was working for a low wage, supported by various benefits. He got a pay rise at work which took him over some invisible margin, and lost a load of benefits, and ended up about 60 quid a week worse off.

 

Whoever is in government, they need to work out a scaled approach to benefits that allows people to move progressively out of reliance on the state and back into full-time employ. At the moment it's too complicated, too expensive to regulate, and too inflexible.

Totally agree; it's a shambles, absolutely unfit for purpose.

 

I'm about to take a colleague out for a drink for her last day. She's a single mother who works 18.5 hours a week and has the rest built up by some tax credit or other. A couple of years ago we had work coming out of our ears and couldn't have coped without her working full time for us. I don't think she ever saw the benefit of bailing us out, though; she couldn't be paid for her extra work because the drop in her credits would have left her out of pocket. We just spoke of giving her time off further down the line to make up the difference, though I don't think she ever had the opportunity to use it. It's bollocks, isn't it?

 

I seem to recall that you fell afoul of the system too once; wasn't it the case that you were expected to burn through your savings before you received help when you were out of work? It's a shambles. I suspect I'm more hardline than many others ("If you continually turn down work then you also forgo the State's funding you, even if life becomes uncomfortable" would be one of my approaches) but I think that it's ridiculous to say that the social insurance system won't be accessible to people who have continually paid into it and who have acted prudently in putting money to one side for the future.

 

I think you put it perfectly Ronnie: the welfare state should be "insurance, a buffer, for when people fall on hard times and need a bit of help getting on their feet." As you said, when I lost my job it was basically an exercise in paperwork that distracted me from finding a job; I got JSA, eventually and incorrectly backdated, and as soon as a week's work came up, I had to sign back off, and then sign back on again with another long wait before any cash (I think it takes about 6 weeks or something before the system grinds into life). And as you say, no help with rent or owt as I'd foolishly saved my pennies.

 

So, useless as a buffer, it felt more like a trap - well, once you've blown through your life savings and are completely fucked, then we'll help you, but in such a way that makes you entirely dependent on the handouts and unless you suddenly land another high-salary job, you might as well stay on the dole.

 

A number of people who lost their job at the same time as me lost everything - house, car, everything they'd worked for. Only then, when they were on their arses with kids and wife living out of a room at their parents, did the state consider them ready for help.

 

There are many, many things about this government that I dislike - but their stated intent that the system should encourage and support people back into work in a more progressive way is spot on.

 

A better system doesn't have to be more complicated. A guy loses his job - he should be able to go into the dole office, sign on straight away, get a standard package that helps him keep his roof over his head and food on the table (regardless of personal circumstance) for a limited time - say, 8 weeks. A lot of people, without the tailspin of suddenly having no income at all, will be able to get back into work in that sort of timeframe.

 

...

 

The subject of long-term incapacity should be considered as an entirely different matter. There will always be people, societies' unfortunates, who will never be able to work and as a society we should look after them. But I know, and I'm sure we all know, people who are capable of work but don't. The current proposals may well be too much of a reaction swing to the right, but something is needed.

 

Pat, you say you can't work, and obviously I don't know your precise circumstances, but you seem to be online most of the time, so you can at least operate a keyboard for 8 hours a day If you could scale up into work that wasn't manual, don't you think you could manage it? Wouldn't you rather work part-time and earn half your income than be entirely reliant on the state? I speak as someone who, like you, has a chronic back condition that I take drugs for every day of my life, and am constantly in pain, but I hold down a full-time job which at the moment consists almost entirely of me posting on the UKFF for 8 hours a day

[patiirc]

Pat, you say you can't work, and obviously I don't know your precise circumstances, but you seem to be online most of the time, so you can at least operate a keyboard for 8 hours a day If you could scale up into work that wasn't manual, don't you think you could manage it? Wouldn't you rather work part-time and earn half your income than be entirely reliant on the state? I speak as someone who, like you, has a chronic back condition that I take drugs for every day of my life, and am constantly in pain, but I hold down a full-time job which at the moment consists almost entirely of me posting on the UKFF for 8 hours a day

 

Trust me dude if was capable I would be at work like a shot, fucking 4 1/2 years of this shit is really beginning to take its toll. Im starting to lose, hence the diagnosis of depression and subsequent counselling and psychotherapy I really would do anything at this point if I was capable. Seeing life pass us by and not being able to do anything about it is becoming a living nightmare.

 

Though Im online, I may not be at the computer if that makes sense. I was working in a call centre prior to all this and work wanted me back at work or would sack me, despite all the medical evidence to the contrary. The concession they would make is to give us a special chair and do the 19th millionth workplace reassessment. They ended up making my position redundant and forcing us to reapply for a different job in the same company. Unsurprisingly I didnt get any of the positions available despite having the experience because they didnt want to make any other concessions, and was stuck with being sacked or made redundant. I took the piss poor pay off and left, didnt really have a choice in the matter in the end.

 

With regards to the actualities of jobs like that targets such as SLA's and Not Ready and so on would have been impossible to meet because I cant sit still long enough because of the pain to make any effectual impact, and that's on a good day. On a bad day I crawl so actually physically getting somewhere to do work becomes impossible. Because I wont know until I wake up in the morning or whenever dependent on the sleep Im allowed to get ( by that I mean when im not in so much pain i can get some) as to how my back or pain is going to be it makes me completely unreliable as well. and thats not withstanding wobbling about like a drunkard, falling over, shaky hands, constant pins and needles, crashing into stuff and all the other fun stuff I get to experience on a daily basis

 

The plan was to get my back stable enough and stamina up so I could at least attempt some kind of work, but the complications with my broken big toe has ballsed up my gait and hence fucked up my back further. It will takes months to sort, and that's when the toe is fully sorted. The cortezone injections on the toe which to all intents and purposes still looks broken nearly 8 months on and the x rays show up some awesome anomalies including an unexplained white line, means it could be a while yet before that is sorted. I have another injection due next month and see how it goes from there.

 

If I can get some stablity and stamina, meaning a couple of months without a bad day, then Ill go to the Shaw Trust and see what they can do to help me back into to any kind of work. However with Physio, Hydrotherapy and pain management, they havent been able to do that even without the complications of the fallout from the broken Big Toe. So Im not really sure what options are available.

 

Im in constant pain every second of every day, whether Im doing something or not. The drugs in this case dont work, and because my body seems to get used to the pain relief or suffer from insufferable side effects then currently its over the counter medication that is the order of the day, despite it not actually doing anything, and that has been advised by Pain Management Nurses who specialise in this stuff. Unless something new comes on to the market then Im shit out of luck

 

Ive had from memory Tramadol, Dehydrocodiene, Amatryptalene, Bupronorphene, Gabberpentin and Diclofenac amongst others and none have stuck or worked. They will not put me on Diazepam nor Morphine because of my age and any future complications (such as lowered resistance to pain relief for operations and so on) So am stuck layering Paracetamol, Ibropufen and Codiene as and when, even though the effects are marginal at best.

 

So Im stuck between a rock and a hard place at present. Galling doesnt cover it

[Kiffy]

Ya know what?

I can't help noticing a more than coincedental similarity between young tommy and our previous moron young happ hazzard, I have a feeling he's going to ignore the things that just got explained to him and pop up spouting rubbish in the same way in a day or two in a very similar fashion.

Could be wrong of course, but that's very unlike me.

Erm, how is that any different to what you do?

 

And I have not, nor never been called happ hazzard.

 

I just think its bollocks that this kid gets to portray himself as a working-class hero when his dad was a millionaire and chose to splurge all his money on houses and private education instead of thinking about the future.

 

But he didn't though, this has already been pointed out to you by numerous peopleand you're just too thick too bother understanding it. He pointed out that without the buffer affect the welfare state gave him and his family, he'd be fucked. This has been explained to you numerous times but you just won't hear or respond to it, and can repeating the same shit over and over again.

That's how what you're doing is different to me, cos I'll debate things back and forward and actually listen and respond to the other chaps opinions.

And that's why I'm starting to become quite convinced you're young happ, if not you're doing a good enough impression of him to be considered a twat of a similar order.

[Loki]

Pat, my sympathies chap. I'm on diclofenac which works quite well for me, but makes me somewhat stoned half the time. I'm a lot more mobile than you, though, and keep my fitness and flexibility very high as it's the only thing I think that keeps me upright long-term; if I stop going to the gym, that'll be the end of me. I've had this condition for over a decade now, so I know it's not going to go away.

 

Cannabis is cracking for the condition too, but I can't exactly smoke that at work, sadly.

[Kiffy]

Wack it in some cakes or summit? Bit o trial and error at first of course to get the amounts right (I'd probably stick to doing that at the weekend) but after that you're away.

I'll echo the sympathies to patdfb as well, shitty situation mate.

[big mickey]

Milliband is as dull as it gets, even Major wasn't as bad!

Watched the highlights of his speech in a pub and everyone seemed to agree on how kind of random & a little unessacary his Millie Dowler part was.

Don't think he needed to bring it up to be honest.

[bobbins]

As long as we're living under this system of neo-liberalism, the problem of it not paying to work instead of signing on will always be there. At the moment you have the Hobson's choice of working your arse off and scraping by or going on the dole and scraping by. Our society and political system is set up to depress wages and living standards, to remove labour rights and to suck all the wealth out to be ferreted away by a handful of billionaires. A million different reforms of the welfare state are never going to solve that problem as long as the system is doing everything in its power to keep wages as low as possible.

 

The only alternative solution that could make it worthwhile to work, involves shoving vulnerable people on to the streets, creating ghettos, demonising the underclass and then locking them up, removing access to free healthcare, creating a two-tier education system and the destruction of the idea of a fair and civilised society with equal opportunities for all. And funnily enough, that's the solution that the Tories and Libs are trying to put in place right now. Abandoning neoliberalism is not on the cards. It's a race to the bottom so the top 1% can continue to acquire grotesque wealth at the expense of the other 99%.

 

Pat's experiences with DWP and with the call centre should be a massive wake up call politically. That isn't down to individual incompetence, that's deliberate policy.

[Ronnie]

as long as the system is doing everything in its power to keep wages as low as possible.

This would be the same system that instituted a guaranteed minimum wage, right? No more people working for

[Loki]

Yeah, this government that raised the tax threshold to ten grand, taking many of the lowest earners in thr country out of income tax altogether? In between the Tories deliberately trying to brutalise the working classes etc etc, a few decent Lib Dem policies have crept through, and that's one of them.

[Kiffy]

Yeah, this government that raised the tax threshold to ten grand, taking many of the lowest earners in thr country out of income tax altogether? In between the Tories deliberately trying to brutalise the working classes etc etc, a few decent Lib Dem policies have crept through, and that's one of them.

 

It is, to be fair, a good move. In some ways the destruction of the lib dems is a real shame, I really did have time for alot of their policies. But they're fucked for at least a generation after hooking up with the tories. But really, the bigger point of the massive gap between the top 5% and the 95% underneath it is hardly affected by it. If anything it allows the status quo to continue more easily.

 

In lighter news, the EDL leader continues to have trouble with the british laws he wants to defend, up in court again for assault http://www.lakelandecho.co.uk/news/north-w...sault_1_3818784 could another prison stretch be in the cards?

[Keith Houchen]

In lighter news, the EDL leader continues to have trouble with the british laws he wants to defend, up in court again for assault http://www.lakelandecho.co.uk/news/north-w...sault_1_3818784 could another prison stretch be in the cards?

Looks likely

The leader of the English Defence League is facing a possible jail sentence after being convicted of assault.

 

Stephen Lennon launched a verbal attack on a fellow member of the far-right group before headbutting his victim, Preston Magistrates' Court heard.

 

Lennon, 28, founder of the EDL, "goaded" a crowd of followers during a rally by 2,000 supporters in Blackburn on April 2.

 

The 28-year-old, from Luton, Bedfordshire, launched a tirade against a man, who was accused of putting messages on the internet about police informers and "grasses", before trouble broke out in the crowd among EDL members, the court heard.

 

Alan McKee, 33, from Gateshead, was pulled from the crowd by stewards for his own safety and taken away by police officers.

 

But the court heard he later confronted Lennon about his speech as the rally continued with other speakers. Lennon, who was surrounded by his own security guards and EDL stewards, then lunged or stepped forward and headbutted Mr McKee.

 

Lennon denied assault and claimed during his speech he had harangued another man, also called Alan, an Alan Smith, from Newcastle, who was a member of an EDL splinter group, the North East Infidels, intent on causing trouble.

 

The court heard from two police officers, Pc Paul Green and Pc Andrew Sumner, who told the court they were on hand when the incident happened. Both maintained they clearly saw Lennon headbutt Mr McKee.

 

After a day-long trial District Judge Peter Ward said he believed the police officers and convicted Lennon of common assault. Sentencing was adjourned until November 3 when police will apply for a criminal Asbo (Anti-social behaviour order) to prevent Lennon attending EDL rallies.

 

Outside court, Lennon said: "It's a fit-up. They are fabricating evidence. I have had ongoing harassment. All this is about getting an Asbo that will ban me from demonstrations and protests. It is meant to be a democracy but this is a stitch-up."

[big mickey]

It's not going to stop the EDL movement, so do what needs to be done.