General politics discussion thread

[tiger_rick]

Same old Tory cuts eh? Cut health, cut service, cut local authorities, cut Police, cut your mate's tax contributions.

[mikey]

We are a tax haven already so long as you're not British. Blame Gordon Brown for that.

[tiger_rick]

We are a tax haven already so long as you're not British. Blame Gordon Brown for that.

So it's OK to make things much worse because Labour fucked up in the first place? In which case, why did we vote in (or not) a new government? They are suppose to be fixing the problems, not causing more.

[Chest Rockwell]

What does any of that overly emotive blustering mean Kenny? In particular what do you mean in terms of Switzerland "staying off the map"?

 

 

A little context and possible reason for this. The UK is currently the financial centre of Europe. We have the most attractive set up for financial services looking for a base to operate from. For example, over 80% of the European Hedge Fund and Private Equity market is here. There are currently a large swathe of European Directives coming through the pipeline that are theoretically 'levelling the playing field' in terms of pan-European Financial Regulation, the negotiations of which see France and Germany trying to cut our nuts off at every level possible. UK policy makers are trying to protect our local industry because it's such a huge part of our economy. In doing so, at some level you have to protect the interests of the businesses in order to keep them here.

 

People won't be so keen on 'bringing down the corporations' when the impacts are a recession far far worse than this minor bump we've seen in the last couple.

 

I'm not saying I agree with this, but I think it's worth trying to understand some of the subtleties instead of going on about getting bukkaked with corporate monster jizz.

[mikey]

I'm not for this policy at all. Economically, we're a one trick pony and putting policies in which would increase that seems ludicrous to me. However, I'm pointing out to Kenny that, for foreign nationals, this country is already a tax haven. Part of New Labour attracting big business to this country, especially American companies who relisted in London after the Sarbanes-Oxley Act, was to welcome non-doms and not tax them. The idea being, they'll either live here or they won't. If they live here, they put money into the economy, their companies pay us capital gains. Whether it worked or not is another question.

[mikey]

A little context and possible reason for this. The UK is currently the financial centre of Europe. We have the most attractive set up for financial services looking for a base to operate from. For example, over 80% of the European Hedge Fund and Private Equity market is here. There are currently a large swathe of European Directives coming through the pipeline that are theoretically 'levelling the playing field' in terms of pan-European Financial Regulation, the negotiations of which see France and Germany trying to cut our nuts off at every level possible. UK policy makers are trying to protect our local industry because it's such a huge part of our economy. In doing so, at some level you have to protect the interests of the businesses in order to keep them here.

 

Then again, this is the issue. We're a one trick pony, completely reliant on the City and financial services. When the shit hits the fan, as it truly will, we'll basically end up as the first post-capitalist nation and all basically end up in peasantry, except the uber-rich, reliant on the big casino, who'll pitch up Abu Dhabi or wherever shakes out as the next great financial centre.

[Kenny McBride]

I just think it's utterly, utterly immoral. There's no good reason for it. Britain is always going to be a major financial centre because it's always been one. The FTSE isn't just going to stop being one of the biggest stock markets in the world because France and Germany up their game. The language, for a start, gives us a massive advantage. It's all well and good to say that lowering taxes encourages businesses to locate here, but the whole point of the Laffer Curve is that if you tax at 0%, you get zero income from it. The job creation powers of these financial institutions, nor the tax paid by their employees comes close to countering the impact this will have. And that's not to mention the thoroughly obscene fact that we'll end up taking tax out of other countries and creating a precedent that this sort of behaviour is OK.

 

It was bad enough that we bailed these bastards out. Now we're bribing them just to exist.

[matbro1984]

I just think it's utterly, utterly immoral. There's no good reason for it. Britain is always going to be a major financial centre because it's always been one. The FTSE isn't just going to stop being one of the biggest stock markets in the world because France and Germany up their game. The language, for a start, gives us a massive advantage. It's all well and good to say that lowering taxes encourages businesses to locate here, but the whole point of the Laffer Curve is that if you tax at 0%, you get zero income from it. The job creation powers of these financial institutions, nor the tax paid by their employees comes close to countering the impact this will have. And that's not to mention the thoroughly obscene fact that we'll end up taking tax out of other countries and creating a precedent that this sort of behaviour is OK.

 

It was bad enough that we bailed these bastards out. Now we're bribing them just to exist.

 

Simply not true and a bit of a myopic view. Clearly and overwhelmingly, the only major financial powerhouses that impress like they'll remain on the horizon are the United States and China. Us, France and Germany will eventually because distant second-tier players.

 

Your closing paragraph, however, is bang on the money.

 

Edit: One wonders sometimes if Cameron et al aren't trying to wring out every last benefit and penny for themselves and their mates before this country is finally dry. At first I was optimistic that after the great Labour balls up, a change of government might finally stop the rot. And initially I was hopeful, the spending cuts, though unpopular, are necessary. Then things like this creep into the equation and you realise its just the same old shit. We as a nation are either too apathetic, too stupid or too polite to revolt the way we'd have to if true and lasting change will ever come to this country.

Edited February 10, 2011 by matbro1984

[Chest Rockwell]

I've got a meeting to go to, I'll be brief.

 

I just think it's utterly, utterly immoral. There's no good reason for it. Britain is always going to be a major financial centre because it's always been one.

 

That's just retarded. You don't need me to explain that one. Just read it back to yourself.

 

The FTSE isn't just going to stop being one of the biggest stock markets in the world because France and Germany up their game.

 

It starts with new financial services not having any incentive to set up here. The next stage is the ones that are already here relocating..

 

 

It's all well and good to say that lowering taxes encourages businesses to locate here, but the whole point of the Laffer Curve is that if you tax at 0%, you get zero income from it. The job creation powers of these financial institutions, nor the tax paid by their employees comes close to countering the impact this will have.

 

I think you're underestimating the breadth of the net these institutions cast and the amount of indirect wealth they generate. It's collossal.

Edited February 10, 2011 by Chest Rockwell

[Kenny McBride]

I just think it's utterly, utterly immoral. There's no good reason for it. Britain is always going to be a major financial centre because it's always been one. The FTSE isn't just going to stop being one of the biggest stock markets in the world because France and Germany up their game. The language, for a start, gives us a massive advantage. It's all well and good to say that lowering taxes encourages businesses to locate here, but the whole point of the Laffer Curve is that if you tax at 0%, you get zero income from it. The job creation powers of these financial institutions, nor the tax paid by their employees comes close to countering the impact this will have. And that's not to mention the thoroughly obscene fact that we'll end up taking tax out of other countries and creating a precedent that this sort of behaviour is OK.

 

It was bad enough that we bailed these bastards out. Now we're bribing them just to exist.

 

Simply not true and a bit of a myopic view. Clearly and overwhelmingly, the only major financial powerhouses that impress like they'll remain on the horizon are the United States and China. Us, France and Germany will eventually because distant second-tier players.

 

Your closing paragraph, however, is bang on the money.

 

I disagree. It may shrink somewhat (and almost certainly would if we didn't bribe the financial industry with promises of legalised corruption and theft and glorious rewards for incompetence), but if there weren't other factors at play, the DAX, Nikkei and Hang Seng would have become much bigger players by now. And anyway, if we're not getting any tax revenue out of them, why worry if the FTSE's influence and status diminish?

[Loki]

I understand the need to keep Britain as a place that people, large internationals especially, want to do business. But as Kenny said this policy shift doesn't only drop our trousers, it stretches out our arsehole and looks longingly over our shoulder.

 

The Tories are too close to the banking industry, far too close. And the Lib Dems seem utterly spineless in this coalition. I can see them withdrawing within a year, especially if it goes tits up on AV.

[Happ Hazzard]

No country or city is ever ensured as being the centre of anything regardless of history. It's easier than ever today to do business anywhere in the world.

 

We as a country need to start making things again.

[Kenny McBride]

No country or city is ever ensured as being the centre of anything regardless of history. It's easier than ever today to do business anywhere in the world.

 

We as a country need to start making things again.

I agree, as it happens. I just think that as things stand, the "we have to let them do what they like or they'll leave us with nothing" is a really spurious argument. What are we - the fucking battered wife nation?

[soretooth]

I just think it's disgusting. How can they? How dare they? VAT rises, Sure Start centres closing, libraries closing, police numbers reducing, tax credits cut, disability benefits cut, child benefit cut all in the name of reducing the deficit - but they will cut corporation tax by 4% and stop them paying the tax they owe on earnings from abroad. Disgusting. Criminal.

 

I don't agree with the argument that the big banks and financial corps will leave the country if they get broken up or don't get a tax break. Imagine there was a company making huge amounts of money and paying lots of tax in London that was poisoning the water, and people are getting sick. Do you not regulate the water supply because you're afraid the company poisoning it is going to leave? No, go and poison someone else's water. If other countries are stupid enough to introduce that kind of unregulated financial instability into their systems that that is their problem.

Edited February 10, 2011 by soretooth

[Happ Hazzard]

I just think it's disgusting. How can they? How dare they? VAT rises, Sure Start centres closing, libraries closing, police numbers reducing, tax credits cut, disability benefits cut, child benefit cut all in the name of reducing the deficit - but they will cut corporation tax by 4% and stop them paying the tax they owe on earnings from abroad. Disgusting. Criminal.

 

I don't agree with the argument that the big banks and financial corps will leave the country if they get broken up or don't get a tax break. Imagine there was a company making huge amounts of money and paying lots of tax in London that was poisoning the water, and people are getting sick. Do you not regulate the water supply because you're afraid the company poisoning it is going to leave? No, go and poison someone else's water. If other countries are stupid enough to introduce that kind of unregulated financial instability into their systems that that is their problem.

That ananogy makes no sense. The firms aren't poisoning people by not paying taxes. There's no real reason why the tax should be paid here rather than anywhere else, the money is made all over the world.

 

In what way would be better off if the firms weren't here at all and paying no UK tax at all? Have fun funding Sure Start centres off of taxes paid by people working at Tesco.

 

This country has become far too happy to throw money at problems in the form of benefits and public spending instead of placing the onus on individuals to take responsibility for themselves and their own families.

 

There's no point setting tax rates high, spending money based on what "should" be paid under those tax rates and then crying foul when the tax take falls short. There's a point at which people simply aren't prepared to pay any more, and you can't force them to do so short of putting a gun in their face, and once you start doing that, it's a short hop & skip to totalitarianism.

 

Cut taxes, introduce a flat tax rate, take low earners out of income tax altogher, and allocate public spending on the basis of what needs to be done, rather than on vaunted ideals of what "should" be done.