The Fortean/paranormal/conspiracy thread

[neil's bitch]

What do you mean by "You would say that"? I actually forgot to include a copy of the photo I was talking about If you have a pretty vague looking photo then sure it makes sense someone might see a dead relative when infact it's just a dodgy blur or whatever, but in cases where the picture is actually reasonably clear, such as the one I've now posted above I think it's clear enough to identify the person.

 

I personally think even if you could full on make out the face, some relatives might still "Want" to see that person, and just say "Yes that is 100% him". I personally think it still might be a case of double exposure or something along those lines, it just seems a bit to easy to have that particular idea give some form of false identification.

[Wideload]

That's always the line with ghost photos though: "The story goes...". The story goes that it's not my mate in a sheet dancing around in the background.

This thing with ghosts though is what would be considered hard evidence? Obviously you get the photos and videos that can be easily discredited as double exposure, and other logical explanations, but when you get the ones that can't. For example that photo with the man in the backseat of the car, surely all you can really have is the photo along with the witness statement that no one else was in the car?

 

I'm quite a fan of photos where someone can actually be identified such as a dead relative.

 

 

I find this one interesting from WWI. The story is that face belongs to an air machanic who had been killed days before the photos was taken. I would argue that there is enough of his face showing for those that knew him to be able to make a good identification.

 

EDIT: Forgot to actually post the photo

 

Where on the photo is the enlarged section taken from?

[Loki]

As someone who regularly managed to appear in school photos twice, once at each end, I know group photos are easily fucked around with! To me, that looks like someone's taken a photo over the top of an earlier group photo, and the guy's face has remained in the new photo as it happens to appear in a space. If there's only a couple of days between photos, that could easily have happened.

[King Pitcos]

It was Sir John and the Denbigh Dragon I think. Growing up down the road from it I never really went apart from when it reopened

Ah, cheers for that. What do you mean when it reopened? It's a bowling alley or something now, isn't it?

[DJ Kris]

What do you mean by "You would say that"? I actually forgot to include a copy of the photo I was talking about If you have a pretty vague looking photo then sure it makes sense someone might see a dead relative when infact it's just a dodgy blur or whatever, but in cases where the picture is actually reasonably clear, such as the one I've now posted above I think it's clear enough to identify the person.

 

I personally think even if you could full on make out the face, some relatives might still "Want" to see that person, and just say "Yes that is 100% him". I personally think it still might be a case of double exposure or something along those lines, it just seems a bit to easy to have that particular idea give some form of false identification.

People see a lot of things they want to, but in the case of the WWI photo I don't think people were imagining seeing him.

 

Where on the photo is the enlarged section taken from?

Top row, fourth from the left.

 

As someone who regularly managed to appear in school photos twice, once at each end, I know group photos are easily fucked around with! To me, that looks like someone's taken a photo over the top of an earlier group photo, and the guy's face has remained in the new photo as it happens to appear in a space. If there's only a couple of days between photos, that could easily have happened.

Yeah I heard about the way that used to happen in older photos, suprisingly from the film The Awakening, which is pretty good by the way. I don't know how often group photos like this would have been taken during WWI, I thinking not very often? But the guy was killed 2 days earlier so I would be suprised if a photo such as this was taken that day and then another so close. Surely though mif it was a case of 2 photos on top of each other would there not be other indications of this in the picture?

 

EDIT: Quick bit of research on the car photo gives some background. I wasn't aware the person was supposed to be someone's relative, but apparently the photo was taken when Mabel Chinnery was visiting her Mother's gravesite in 1959. Her husband in the driver and she believe's the person in the back is her Mother. Now in this instance I agree with Bowyo that she is probably seeing what she wants to see as in my opinion the face isn't clear enough to make out anymore than it being a person. Supposedly the photo was examined by an expert who was certain it wasn't a reflection or a double exposure.

Edited May 21, 2012 by DJ Kris

[neil's bitch]

Doesnt it depend on the exposure of the picture itself, like it can only be the odd thing that pops up on the picture, rather than two whole pictures overlapping, (which also does happen depending on what goes on with the picture).

 

As for the taking of the pictures, I would of thought they took everybodys picture at some point (as they do now really) and the fact he may of died X ammount of days later may not be very suprising at all, as many people didnt last very long at all from what I'm aware. As Loki said the exposure can still take effect a few days or so later, so his personal picture may of been a few days prior. Adding on top of that, that he may of turned up in other pictures (i would of thought) but nobody else noticed.

 

I'm not saying you are wrong, although there are alot of more likely cases to what is going in these types pictures

[DJ Kris]

Doesnt it depend on the exposure of the picture itself, like it can only be the odd thing that pops up on the picture, rather than two whole pictures overlapping, (which also does happen depending on what goes on with the picture).

 

As for the taking of the pictures, I would of thought they took everybodys picture at some point (as they do now really) and the fact he may of died X ammount of days later may not be very suprising at all, as many people didnt last very long at all from what I'm aware. As Loki said the exposure can still take effect a few days or so later, so his personal picture may of been a few days prior. Adding on top of that, that he may of turned up in other pictures (i would of thought) but nobody else noticed.

 

I'm not saying you are wrong, although there are alot of more likely cases to what is going in these types pictures

Possibly so, I'm trying to find some more information on it, as to what "experts" had to say about it, whether it's known an other photo of him was taken that could have tainted this one. I'll let you know if I find anything, but so far every site seems to have cut an pasted the same paragraph.

[neil's bitch]

Awesome , will keep my eyes peeled for that.

 

If you can, it might be worth trying to find out which section of the army this came from, and when abouts it was taken. As to be fair, for a second I thought this bloke may of been in the actual picture,all be it a little bit further back in the stand, because of how clear you can see his face.

 

For what its worth, if he is on other pictures slightly older than this one, people may of thought he was actually in them due to exposure (that is of course if he is on them).

 

Barring that I'm sure there is a record of these pictures somewher, so happy hunting!

[DJ Kris]

Awesome , will keep my eyes peeled for that.

 

If you can, it might be worth trying to find out which section of the army this came from, and when abouts it was taken. As to be fair, for a second I thought this bloke may of been in the actual picture,all be it a little bit further back in the stand, because of how clear you can see his face.

 

For what its worth, if he is on other pictures slightly older than this one, people may of thought he was actually in them due to exposure (that is of course if he is on them).

 

Barring that I'm sure there is a record of these pictures somewher, so happy hunting!

I've gotta get on with some work so will get back onto this later. What I've established so far is this seems to be one of the more famous ghost photos and is widely excepted as being real or at least not proven otherwise. However, one website give a little information on the man who took and published the photo Sir Victor Goddard. It would seem Victor developed a keen interest in the paranormal and told some interested stories from his life including a time when he believed that he time traveled and one where his life was saved because someone had a premonition. Not sure how true these claims are, but they certainly don't give me a lot of confidence in his back story to the photo. After all, at this stage all we have is a man who like to tell fantastic stories claiming the photo was taken after this man died and claiming that members of the Squadron (served at the HMS Daedalus training facility) had easily recognised him. Of course as yet there's also little to suggest non of this is true, but I'd like to at least find some quote from some of these other people and perhaps a photo and some more information on Freddy Jackson (the ghost) himself.

[Astro Hollywood]

There were physical, observable reasons why the UFO craze really took off in the US postwar, though, in addition to what you've said. It's surely no coincidence that, initially at least, the sightings took place in and around the area of heavy aviation/nuclear prototyping that really kicked off with the influx of Nazi scientists after the war. We know that both the army, airforce and navy were testing rockets, supersonic planes, weather balloons, unmanned drones... all sorts of previously unseen objects that were floating around the skies over Nevada/New Mexico.

 

Add in a huge security operation to keep that all secret, plus increasing paranoia over the activities of the Russians, and you've got a perfect cocktail of elements to create mass hysteria. People WERE seeing stuff in the skies, the government WAS (initially at least) keen to cover it up. Whether or not the whole UFO=Aliens thing became a weapon of disinformation in later years, I don't know. Sounds likely though.

 

There's a fantastic book called Mirage Men that goes into the lengths the government(s) went to to perpetrate the UFO myth. During the cold war especially, the US wanted other nations to see those reports and pictures of flying saucers and think that they were the ones the aliens were interested in, and possibly even talking to. Most of the actual cover up was covering up the fact that the vast majority of big sightings in the 40s-70s were part of that propaganda machine. There are a ton of sightings from that era of UFOs performing impossible maneuvers and being chased by the airforce before disappearing, and those radar reports were always seen as one of the most convincing pieces of hard evidence. Occam's razor though, there was actually nothing in the air to begin with, and most (or all) of those incidents were down to a rader spoofing system that had been around since the 40s. Even the whole Man in Black thing was, a lot of the time, down to government employees literally paid to fuck with people just to further that myth; visiting witnesses while in character and knowing that stuff would spread worldwide, giving off the impression of a government that was down with ET.

 

One of the most interesting parts of the book is how they drove a man to a complete mental breakdown by giving him a computer and telling him to monitor 'alien transmissions' from a nearby supposed secret alien base, which were piped straight into the computer from the officials who gave it to him. The guy was a UFOlogy bigwig, and he'd leak all these details in his newsletters, and to other UFO nuts, and the stories would spread. It sent him utterly insane.

 

It's being made into a documentary at the moment, which should be great.

 

 

I can't remember that one, though it sounds similar to sightings of dragons that are generally viewed as comet/meteor sightings nowadays.

 

I do find early UFO sightings interesting, particularly the airship sightings from the US in the late 19th century. The comparisons with the UFO craze of the 40s/50s is really interesting, as often the technology required to produce the vehicles seen is only 10/20 years away from being reality. It's like people imagine they see things that they are becoming aware could potentially be possible.

 

The airship craze is one of my favourites. It's not even remotely explainable in a nuts and bolts way, so you have to look at it from a cultural standpoint, because those shifts fascinate me. But even so, I don't think you can have-wave away all those hundreds of reports, so what were all those people seeing?

Edited May 21, 2012 by Astro Hollywood

[neil's bitch]

There's a fantastic book called Mirage Men that goes into the lengths the government(s) went to to perpetrate the UFO myth. During the cold war especially, the US wanted other nations to see those reports and pictures of flying saucers and think that they were the ones the aliens were interested in, and possibly even talking to. Most of the actual cover up was covering up the fact that the vast majority of big sightings in the 40s-70s were part of that propaganda machine. There are a ton of sightings from that era of UFOs performing impossible maneuvers and being chased by the airforce before disappearing, and those radar reports were always seen as one of the most convincing pieces of hard evidence. Occam's razor though, there was actually nothing in the air to begin with, and most (or all) of those incidents were down to a rader spoofing system that had been around since the 40s. Even the whole Man in Black thing was, a lot of the time, down to government employees literally paid to fuck with people just to further that myth; visiting witnesses while in character and knowing that stuff would spread worldwide, giving off the impression of a government that was down with ET.

 

One of the most interesting parts of the book is how they drove a man to a complete mental breakdown by giving him a computer and telling him to monitor 'alien transmissions' from a nearby supposed secret alien base, which were piped straight into the computer from the officials who gave it to him. The guy was a UFOlogy bigwig, and he'd leak all these details in his newsletters, and to other UFO nuts, and the stories would spread. It sent him utterly insane.

 

It's being made into a documentary at the moment, which should be great.

 

I Might have to check that book out, as that sounds amazing, especially about the UFO guy monotoring what in reality, was most likely 2 blokes eating pizza making up alien invasion stuff, and that it sent him loopey is just the topping of that cake, will have to look into that. Are there any pages via the ole interweb about that?

 

EDIT: Not that I can recall the full story, but did anybody here anything more about that documentary team who had supposedly found "100% proof" of alien life in the amazon rain forest (or something similar to that effect)?

Edited May 21, 2012 by Bowyo T

[Loki]

What I've established so far is this seems to be one of the more famous ghost photos and is widely excepted as being real or at least not proven otherwise. However, one website give a little information on the man who took and published the photo Sir Victor Goddard. It would seem Victor developed a keen interest in the paranormal and told some interested stories from his life including a time when he believed that he time traveled and one where his life was saved because someone had a premonition. Not sure how true these claims are, but they certainly don't give me a lot of confidence in his back story to the photo. After all, at this stage all we have is a man who like to tell fantastic stories claiming the photo was taken after this man died and claiming that members of the Squadron (served at the HMS Daedalus training facility) had easily recognised him. Of course as yet there's also little to suggest non of this is true, but I'd like to at least find some quote from some of these other people and perhaps a photo and some more information on Freddy Jackson (the ghost) himself.

 

As I said, it's always "The story goes..." So basically it's the guy's story that's being "widely excepted (sic)". Without the wooo-mystery story, the photo itself wouldn't be mysterious at all really.

[Loki]

There's a fantastic book called Mirage Men

 

Right, added to my Wishlist

 

The story about the UFOlogist being fed nonsense reminds me of a salutary lesson from my early days with computers.

 

This would have been about 92, (I was about 14) and the school has just opened a large central computer room. Yes, in those days computers were so rare they'd all be in the same room, kids. Anyway, I was pissing about with a Macintosh playing Conqueror when one of the older boys said "Hey, check out this new Artificial Intelligence program" on one of the PCs. So I sit down and the prompt goes.

 

>Hello

 

So I type Hello. Then it says "What's your name" and I type my name, and it says "Nice to meet you, M----." It keeps asking me questions, and I keep giving answers, and it's clearly learning from me as we go along. Then its questions start getting a bit weird, like "Do you like big tits or small tits". I ask the guy who loaded it for me, who's sitting now at a computer opposite me, and he says "Oh, so-and-so was just running the program, it must have picked up some weird shit from him".

 

Anyway, eventually I tell the AI that I'm logging off and going for my tea, and it say "When you leave the computer room, turn left just before the door" which is a bit weird. So I log off, get to the door, look left and of course there's a couple of guys on another PC that's networked linked to mine pissing themselves laughing.

 

 

The airship craze is one of my favourites. It's not even remotely explainable in a nuts and bolts way, so you have to look at it from a cultural standpoint, because those shifts fascinate me. But even so, I don't think you can have-wave away all those hundreds of reports, so what were all those people seeing?

 

I think they were getting drunk and staring at the sky for too long If you've ever played Red Dead Redemption you'll get an idea of the sort of newspapers these reports were in - basically gossip rags full of absolute shit. At this remote distance it's impossible to really decipher whether there was anything behind it.

 

The other interesting one was the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_rockets from Scandinavia. Although it doesn't say so on Wikipedia, I'm fairly certain there was a bunch of these sorts of sightings much earlier, more like start of the 20th century.

[Up Chuck]

I can't believe how much better this thread is now. I'll shut up about that soon, but CHRIST it's so much better. Definitely gonna be checking out Mirage Men, it sounds fantastic.

[Astro Hollywood]

I think they were getting drunk and staring at the sky for too long If you've ever played Red Dead Redemption you'll get an idea of the sort of newspapers these reports were in - basically gossip rags full of absolute shit. At this remote distance it's impossible to really decipher whether there was anything behind it.

 

That AI story is incredible

 

And yeah, the American newspapers of that time were filled with tons of outright made up shit that sometimes started as actual short fiction and then got reprinted in other papers without that caveat and the author's name removed (which is exactly how the Angel of Mons began), or just stories that had a complete lack of truth-control. For one example, there are some amazing stories from the late 19th/early 20th century about flying snakes in rural America. Sometimes just like a regular sized snake, sometimes multiple ones crawling through the air, and even some reports of gigantic flying anacondas, hundreds of feet long, flipping train carriages as they went. I'm sure the liars clubs of the time, which were very popular, contributed plenty of stories to the Fortean canon.

 

Still though, the airship thing was so widespread, there may be something to it, whatever that is, even if that's just a few mad scientists slightly ahead of the game, building homemade airships in their barns.