Duke

5 minutes ago, Infinity Land said:

Yes, but when and where? Hangman's worn that grey t-shirt on BTE before. There's nothing in the photo that gives away when and where it was taken.

For all you and I know. It's a months old photo on Silver's camera roll that he's posted for his joke.

 

Yeah, maybe. But there's absolutely no reason to believe that, and Silvers joke encourages us to not believe that. 

There are regular jokes on this board that you're secretly Tony Khan. This right here, this is why. This is seriously weak.

7 minutes ago, Infinity Land said:

If you've avoided spoilers for Rampage. How can you even say John Silver was there? Like you say if Hangman turns up on Rampage/Elevation, or more likely BTE it'll tell you whether or not he was in the building. A joke tweet from John Silver doesn't.

He posted a picture of him clearly backstage, eating. Unless you've been to some really crappy restaurants, that was obviously catering. He then called him "the best wrestler in catering". 

The counter argument from John Silver posting a photo is "who cares about twitter", not "Who can say if that photo even shows what the guy who tweeted it says it shows?!" 

3 minutes ago, Chris B said:

If Punk really does have personal issues with people in AEW, it's a weird coincidence that they're the three most beloved babyfaces on the roster and two of them had already started suggesting Punk is secretly a 'politicking piece of shit' heel who convinced the fans he's a good guy.

I knew about Eddie Kingston, but I had no idea that Punk had personal issues with Danhausen and Dax Harwood

1 hour ago, RedRooster said:

I honestly don't think it was a huge problem at all. The announcers said they didn't think he was there, so if anything it made Punk look cowardly, while potentially acting as a red herring for whatever might go down next week. "Wrestler deliberately calls out wrestler who isn't there" is an angle that's as old as the hills. 

Sure, except John Silver tweeted out a picture of him in catering. He WAS there. The announcers said they weren't sure he was there, and thankfully he wasn't on the rest of the show, so it's not a killer, but it is out of order from Punk (and stupid instincts from Silver). 

You're right that we need to see what they do with it though, if Hanger comes out next week (is he on rampage with the DO tonight?) and explains that he was pooing or something, there may be a way out of it, but I'm not sure they can claim he wasn't there now.

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In minutes Mox went from being an absolute killer to Punk shitting on him as the third best member of The Shield. Why isn't Punk selling the threat of a man who's been choking out his opponents and leaving them in pools of blood nearly every week?

I go back and forth on this. My initial response was that story from Jericho's book where he buries the old guy in a promo and the old guy says "either you win and you beat an old guy, or I win, and I am winning, and you lost to a loser". The other hand is it's kind of Punk's schtick. We all know that Mox isn't bad, he's an absolute killer, Punk can't convince us otherwise and in the "if this were real" stakes, would surely be the bookie's favourite. Mox's "yes you're very witty but in real life that's a microphone and it can't save you" line was excellent and oh no I've just realised Punk is going to beat him by hitting him with a microphone.

46 minutes ago, Weezenal said:

My daughter become a bit obsessed with watching 'new Bluey'. She's just said to me:

"If you don't let me watch Bluey.. I'm going"

Does Bluey threaten to leave if she doesn't get her own way? Sounds more like a Pepper Pig move.

 

Obviously your response should be "aaaaaaaaaaand why should I care?" 

Referencing bluey has given us all greater opportunity to troll our kids.

6 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

As someone who’s not been able to catch the show yet, it appears Punk’s heel turn has been effective, no?

Like, when he left he was on the “run of his life” etc etc and now everyone hates him because of  a promo he’s cut and stories in the press that could well have been leaked by a company we already know are aware of the power of working the press.

Punk's heel turn has certainly been effective on a small section of the audience. He won't get booed in his title match because it takes time to filter down and the match is in Chicago, and he'd already accomplished it by slating Moxley and Kingston, but sure.

He didn't need to do totally bury Adam Page to do that though. In storyline, the character is now a coward, refusing to fight Punk and hanging out in catering.

We've seen on here that AEWs best stories are the ones where you can get invested in the characters. If there is a punk page feud for all out (and sheets say that there currently isn't) it's hard to get invested in Pages character. 

Out of interest, when has AEW worked the media? That's not a gotcha, I'm sure there are examples, I just can't think of them off the top of my head.

That's interesting, but a lot of two and two together in that. I remember Pages promo making sense when seen in the context of the Kingston and MJF feuds, but maybe it was more random than I recall 

Assuming the story of Punk going into business for himself with Hangman is true and not just Dave being worked, Punk's odds of retaining next week just dropped drastically (from a 50% to a 25% chance AT BEST). 

It wouldn't be entirely surprising to find out that Khan moved the match earlier to get the belt off Punk for burying a major babyface. Seems unlikely, but I could see it.

22 minutes ago, 69MeDon said:

Another weird thing: if you listen to Meltzer, he is saying he was told that Punk was not scripted to call out Hangman. He just did it.

Astonishing news.

6 minutes ago, Infinity Land said:

I don't really put a ton of stock in Meltzer's instant reactions. You hear the clips sometimes and you can tell he's just spitballing like the rest of us a lot of the time. It just gets regurgitated as a clickbait article fact.

Worth saying that this wasn't a "I don't think" it was a "I was told".

According to DA MELTZ, Punks comments on Hangman were not scripted or expected, and so Page didn't respond because he.. wasn't supposed to. 

1 hour ago, mim731 said:

Presumably a Kenny return also takes in a programme with Ospreay at some stage, given he's also in the trios tournament and they've been teasing it on Twitter. I can't say I'm looking forward to Ospreay on TV, but I suppose at least the match will be good. 

The match would presumably be the semis of this tournament, which seems absolutely crazy to me.

No.

I dislike any reminder that Elias can actually play the guitar.

First raw in ages for me, and while I couldn't get through all of it, more of a point about size than quality, I enjoyed what I did see. I particularly liked the way they got to Mcintyre vs Owens. Didn't feel contrived at all, both guys had a point, and they felt passionate and needed to fight. Probably would've had it main event over Theory and Ziggler though...

2 minutes ago, SuperBacon said:

Are you mental? I reckon Conte would take all in the big Premier League Royal Rumble. He seems legitimately unhinged. Pep comes across as a bit of a psycho as well. Final two would be them.

Conte Vs Gerrard final two, with one of Conte's feet hitting the floor before winning. 

Tuchel gets never technically eleminated and rants about it before losing to Conte at No Way Out 

Arteta eliminated early, but goes on to have a cracking ladder match for the IC title.

6 minutes ago, Supremo said:

Note; I'm allowed to talk about what a pile of shit Rampage has turned into because I booked a very successful pro-wrestling promotion for years, until TNN turned out to be the worst TV partner imaginable and I fancied commentating on Raw instead. Stephanie McMahon was a better owner, anyway.

I knew it!

"When Conte speaks, his words assault you. They crash through the doors of your mind, often quite violently and settle deep within you"

I'm so glad he's back and will miss him when he inevitably punches Daniel Levy in the face whilst screaming about Harry Winks.

1 point for Chelsea, 1.5 points for Spurs. Good to see the spirit of Werner lives on in that Havertz miss.

Conte is still my favourite manager in the premier League, but K2 is my new favourite player. Outrageous outside the foot volley, then tries a bicycle? What a man

8 minutes ago, stumobir said:

 used the comparison of the one man show because there were no other actors, it was directed at the audience. 

To be fair, there is a difference between getting it out in front of an audience, directed at the whole audience and getting it out as part of singling out one woman.

Because the old thread is 153 pages long.

Properly worried about getting smashed by Spurs today. Conte desires revenge, and when Conte wants revenge, woe betide those that stand in his way.

2 hours ago, RedRooster said:

My point is more that people have come from nowhere to achieve success - Bischoff had WCW in a position where they routinely beat WWE in the ratings. He eventually crashed quite spectacularly. Triple H helped NXT become very, very popular. I generally enjoyed the product he presented. I didn't watch ECW either, but while he wasn't successful financially, I think it's fair to say that his booking philosophy was very successful. He created an influential product which is still talked about today. 

I get that, but my point is none of them were creating three hours of first run TV every week, and I'm not sure they presented the level AEW does for the same consistent time too. WCW at its height was better, don't get me wrong, but it got bad quick and I'm not sure Triple H's NXT reached that level, and when they went head to head AEW crushed them. It's also worth saying Hunter had a much bigger support staff than TK seems to, writing wise.

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That said, I do think, in many ways, the product is becoming less accessible to new viewers, and I do think that's problematic

Definitely agree.

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If the wrestlers involved are to be believed, we do - Jericho claims to be entirely responsible for his own stuff, and most of the main wrestlers have said the same thing.

I'm fairly confident we've heard either Kenny or the Bucks (or maybe both) say that they generate ideas, but he's the booker and gets final say so. I can't source that (I think ti was a Meltzer interview). Recognizing a good idea and letting talent run with it is part of being a good booker

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Sure. They're one of the most over acts in the company, but have no real direction and there's no sense that they're being prioritised. They didn't appear on Double or Nothing, and it looks likely that they won't appear on the All Out card. They're being treated very inconsistently, despite clearly being one of the most over - and entertaining - acts AEW has. Putting the titles on Swerve in Their Glory was a bit of an odd move, and even at the time it seemed like a bad choice. I think Khan is failing to capitalise on FTR's momentum quite spectacularly. 

Ok. I'm expecting them to win the belts at All Out, so I guess we'll see.

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I don't know, but if that is indeed the case, it's been bad to the point that intervention has been required for a long time. I don't think there's any real excuse for the way that division has been treated. 

Honestly, none of the talent have impressed me in that division. Some of that, for sure, is booking, but some of it seems to be the seriously gaping weaknesses they each have. I'm not sure how to fix it.

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I don't think we're as far away in our viewpoints as you might think. I think he'd be better off focusing on the big picture too - but as part of that, I think he should be more hands off in booking both AEW and ROH. Clearly he can identify good and bad matches, and that's great. I think he fails a bit at pushing fresh acts, female acts and, sometimes, capitalising on momentum. Some of that may be the product of someone who is trying to do too much. 

I think it's great that he gives wrestlers as much creative control as he does, but I think he needs a good editor - someone who understands his vision for AEW, and can help him execute it; while also being honest enough with him to challenge his quirks and bad habits. 

I guess I think the difference is I think the shows are better than you seem to, and I'm happy with TK as the lead booker, I just want him to work in a team to help him. I'm not convinced the point about pushing fresh acts is true, Hobbs, Starks and Jungle Boy are moving up the card atm, as is Daniel Garcia. Eddie Kingston has probably never been so well featured on TV and they're trying something with Wheeler Yuta. 

He does definitely need someone that can be a mentor/challenger to him and people to take control of booking undercards, but I don't think they're far away.

Interesting discussion though, thanks.

9 hours ago, RedRooster said:

 

As much as I don't want to be the guy who breaks stuff down into individual points, you've said a few things there that I'd like to open up a bit, so forgive me if I do the pedantic lawyer thing.

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I don't think you necessarily need to know who a potential replacement could be to know that there may be a benefit in trying to find them.Triple H hadn't any booking experience before taking over NXT, Paul Heyman wasn't particularly known for his booking acumen before ECW and Eric Bischoff rose to prominence from relative obscurity

I don't think they're great examples, when they were hot none of them were running 3 hours of first run programming a week, and both Bischoff and HHH lost a lot of their booking cred when their shows expanded in hours. Bischoff played favourites to a ridiculous extent with the nwo and got completely absorbed in it to the detriment of the rest of the product and was unable to build young stars, bar Goldberg. HHH booked some seriously boring 1 hour shows in his time, and benefitted massively from the fact that his roster got a proper refresh every couple of years. I can't speak to Heyman as I never watched ECW, but it's not as if that show was ever massively successful. 

I don't think any booker we know about would be inherently better. They might have different blind spots that annoy you personally less, but I don't think they'd be any better at helping AEW reach a bigger audience. They all have blindspots, it's just what blindspots annoy you more.

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I think it's fair to assume that there's someone out there (or perhaps someone already in the company) who can produce a more consistent product

 This is where we come apart I think, I don't think that's a fair assumption at all. I think that does a disservice to the job that the team at AEW are doing to make it sound like there's someone in easy reach who can do better.

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In regards to the long-term storylines, as far as I can think, these were entirely led by the wrestlers.

Hang on, I don't think we know that for sure. We've been told that the wrestlers have a lot more freedom and input, but the only time we know for sure the wrestlers were entirely leading stories were the early days where the Bucks were losing to Private Party, Kenny was rubbish and stuff was all over the place. Things kicked into (full) gear at all levels when Khan took over. I'm sure the wrestlers have lots of input into their stories and maybe even come up with them themselves, but Khan definitely has some input.

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Khan absolutely deserves credit for not micro-managing them, but equally, he deserves criticism for the times where utter shit has slipped through the net.

This is pretty one-eyed to be fair. Khan's to blame when things go wrong, but his only credit on the good stuff is not getting in the way? 

Malachi Black definitely suffered from being in one feud for way too long, and that's definitely on TK. Miro got injured and then went off to do a TV show, but I for one and excited about his next crusade. I'm interested to hear about what your issue with FTR is though. 

Doesn't Kenny Omega book the women's division?

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 Perhaps the answer is less drastic, and a strong second-in-charge would be enough to eliminate some of AEW's main problems. But I do think that AEW would benefit significantly from proactively addressing some of these things, regardless of how they do it. 

This I'm with you on. I think Khan does way too much, and the reason stuff slips is because he hasn't time for everything. He'd be better with a trusted (small) booking team that can focus on other acts or shows so that he can focus on the big picture, but that's because I think team is almost always better than a one-man-band. 

10 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

And there's the rub. Admittedly Tony Khan didn't fit this description pre-AEW, but there's not a pool out there of wrestling bookers with a proven track record in booking three hours of weekly TV.

And the ones that do are hardly without flaws. I feel like when NJPW was at its high point with omega/okada etc and everyone used to rave about their shows they also complained about the refs looking stupid (I may be conflating two things there). WWE at its best still has a lot of stupidity, it's just about what the viewers can tolerate.

13 hours ago, RedRooster said:

 I think it's quite reasonable to suggest that Dynamite would be stronger if someone else was head booker. 

I mean, yeah, but only in the sense that "someone" is nebulous. There are, I'm sure, people out there who would be a better booker than Tony Khan, but I'd be surprised if there are more than 10 people for whom that would apply, and I couldn't name a single one. He's a very good booker, on the whole, with some decent sized weaknesses, like anyone else. Mileage varies on how much of a nuisance they are to you, but there have been long term compelling stories on AEW that haven't been present on WWE for years. Maybe impacts doing them, I dunno.

Looking back on the brackets for the tournament, it seems weird to me that Omega and Ospreay are going to meet in a trios context, but I also can't see them losing their first rounds (unless the story is that the bucks can't find a partner and so lose to Idolo/Rush/Lee 3v2). So I guess it's plausible that Kenny returns but is then taken out by Aussie Open, at which point Hanger comes in as a sub (as DO will be out at that point) and it's HoB vs Hung Bucks in the finals?