air_raid

It's interesting because at the time of the (first) prime of E&C when both had moved into singles careers, I wondered if the 250 nights a year bumping on WWE rings was fucking people up as long after they banned piledrivers you still had Benoit, Edge, Rhino and Kurt fucking their necks up and far more people going on long-term d/l than on the indy circuit where every fucker was finding the most intricate piledriver or brainbuster variant they could imagine - Red literally called one of his "Brain Damage" for Christ's sake, But even within those few years you had Edge get the fusion surgery and be told "that's it for you for a year" then Kurt shortly after getting different surgery, not needing his vertebrae fused and being back in the ring within a couple of months, to then carry on wrestling fairly regularly for more than ten years.

Fucking hell. Another wonderful production job for the entrance of "The Final Boss" in true video game sense. It's so over the top brilliant, that as happy as I am that Cody is (hopefully, probably, possibly) getting his moment in the sun and winning the belt, I seriously am already getting psyched up for The Rock's (final?) huge singles match at Mania 41, be in against Reigns or against Cody himself.

Agreed that there's no real dearth of story to worry about after Mania. There will likely be a lot of "how do the Bloodline deal with this" in the wake of losing the belt and/or Roman/Rock blaming each other, and I fully expect a draft and/or cash-in to move (as a bare minimum) Drew, Punk and the Silver Medal (possibly Priest too) to SmackDown as we wait for Punk to be in one piece for the inevitable Drew vs Punk match, leaving Seth on Raw to try chasing the real title for a bit. Potentially the minor intrigue of the otherwise-underwhelming Priest as a World Champion. And new feuds to start for the ICT, tag title(s) and maybe US title depending who wins what. Preserving Cody vs Punk for either next year or if they can't wait that long, the annual t-shirt-based rivalry extravaganza of Survivor Series. Well, I like my red t-shirt more. On the one hand, it's good for future booking. On the other hand, it further dilutes what should have been a straightforward "Awesome Truth beat Judgment Day" into "Awesome Truth win a match in which two out of the six teams involved win."

OK, well here's the rabbit hole I promised not to go down. Contradicting my own earlier point, in the interest of fairness, the gap between Mania VI and SummerSlam 90 did represent a bit of a shift in attitude. In comparison, SummerSlam 89 was very different in that the August and September house show feuds illustrate that SummerSlam itself (aside from the long standing Warrior vs Rude issue) had very little baring on who was feuding with whom ; August - Hogan vs Savage for the belt, Warrior vs Andre, Brain Busters vs Demolition, Rude vs Beefcake for the ICT (buy the PPV, fuckers), Dusty vs Boss Man, Duggan vs DiBiase for the King's crown, Rockers vs Rougeaus and Tito vs Rick Martel (per six man at the PPV), Mr Perfect vs Bret and Honky Tonk Man doing jobs for Superfly. September - it's the end of Hogan vs Savage and transition to Savage vs Beefcake for Randy's newly won crown, now it's Roddy Piper vs Rude, Teddy vs the returned Jake the Snake, still Warrior vs Andre, Dusty vs Boss Man, Rockers vs Rougeaus, Bret vs Perfect, Tito vs Martel and Honky vs Superfly. By contrast - have a look at some of the feuds that kicked off on the road after Mania VI was in the books ; April Ultimate Warrior VS Mr Perfect (WWF title) Demolition VS Hart Foundation (tag title) Dusty Rhodes VS Randy Savage Big Boss Man VS Ted DiBiase Jake Roberts VS Bad News Brown Hacksaw Duggan VS Earthquake The Rockers VS Orient Express Tito Santana VS Warlord Bushwhackers VS Rhythm & Blues into May, becoming : Ultimate Warrior VS Rick Rude (WWF title) Mr Perfect VS Brutus Beefcake (ICT) * So at the very least, they had six feuds that were (* at least planned to be) running until SummerSlam and happening on the PPV. I'd say they don't go for the same route the year after with the Hogan vs Slaughter and Warrior vs Undertaker runs before SummerSlam and not after it and zero Bret vs Perfect matches on the road but..... Hogan's in Hollywood in September, Perfect's injured for the whole summer and beyond and Jim got himself shitcanned so it's hard to make a direct comparison. But of the other big feuds... Ted vs Virgil and Nastys vs LOD obviously were used for the PPV, Jake vs Earthquake wasn't as they formed the Natural Disasters and turned Jake with a plan to move to Warrior vs Jake (which didn't happen) and Sid vs Taker (which did), Bret going from working half a dozen different guys in August to Warload every night in September.

I know Punk famously made the blood money remark, but I can't remember exactly what Rollins said to him or what prompted it. I'm going to assume Punk made fun of his willy.

Weirdly enough for the time they did blow that off in singles at SummerSlam, serving as a transition to Dusty putting Ted over. Without going down the rabbit hole too far a lot of the practices of the WWF in the 80s through to about 94 (and definitely by 95 with the advent of one PPV a month) PPVs rarely represented the big feuds (a main event aside) and often the matches existed to set up the next serious runs and any matches that did feel like blow offs had non finishes or finishes designed to continue rather than finish the run. Mania VI is a decent example - they set up Duggan vs Earthquake and Boss Man vs DiBiase as big feuds for the road, neither of which will end up blown off at SummerSlam. In turn SummerSlam sets up Teddy vs Dusty, Quake vs Boss Man and LOD vs Demolition - none of which will get a full blown PPV feud ender either.

Ha! Yeah, nobody likes "Internet fans." Although show me a wrestling fan that doesn't use the net in relation to wrestling. They don't exist. Punk's the best worker alive. I bet he never slags anyone off that he doesn't have on speed dial, so he can call them up and say "Hey man, I may have told a podcast that your dad used to smuggle immigrants over the border for crack, and I may have insinuated your brother fucks your sister, but its only in case we end up in the same company and can draw a ton of money. I'M WORKING, BRO!"

AEW should retaliate with doing a show in the shadow of Windsor. There's a Spoons called The King And Castle, maybe Jericho can get detained there long enough for the wrestling to happen without him. Ignoring the obvious gentrification that makes parts of it identical to any town in England... they really live the gimmick in Windsor.

At least we'll keep the violence in the ring.

I think you gravely underestimate how much business Dusty vs Savage was on the live shows for a huge six month run of straight matches, lumberjack matches, cage matches and mixed tags (yes, even Liz went on the road) in a time when they were able to get three decent gates every night. Feud was massive and the blow off was featured prominently in the TV build. Only the title matches and Jake vs Million $ Man was a bigger deal on the marquee. Nobody considered this a comedy match at the time even though there obviously was some humour in some spots and in the baddies getting their comeuppance. Although, I was with Jesse - why people cheered the people cheating was beyond me, even as a child. In isolation it looks like a drop if he went from a title match to wrestling Crush. In reality, he transitioned into "non wrestler" before IX then came off his sabbatical gradually in the months leading up to X to do the big pay off of the deeply personal feud they started six months earlier. It's not a bad spot for a bloke that wasn't wrestling on the show the year before. It's hardly "wrestled Hogan for the belt on last" to "falling over midgets" inside a year.

Ah, wrestling and football. Fond memories of going to Passport To Pain and hearing someone behind me complaining that Beckham had missed a penalty. And Cena saying "your football team's singing the blues" to the NEC and getting a huge cheer from the Villa fans in attendance. They never really grasped that as a smaller country, you simply don't get everyone in attendance supporting the nearest team as opposed to the one three streets down. LETS GO BRONCOS etc.

And the reason so many guys turned down a Bray feud is revealed. Vince involvement : confirmed. 💩

There's definitely a castle. But they wouldn't allow the dog so while I've been outside it numerous occasions, I've never been allowed to invade it.

Probably think there’s a castle on every street corner of “Merry Olde England” which Scotland is part of. If they want to go down the route of Ayr’s McIntyre going for the belt in his “hometown” (again) then I think more likely is Priest cashing in before this show and Drew challenging. These two posts one after each other made me think it’s the games there are three of rather than castles. Like, there’s THREE *, you can miss one! To be fair, I skipped England vs Belgium in the ‘18 World Cup for Flight of the Conchords. * ONLY three, obviously.

Personally, as soon as they announce the two halves of THE main event are meeting opposite each other in an all star tag on Night 1, it's automatically the main event, even before you add in the fact that THE ROCK is one of the partners. Total no brainer. But everyone's got an opinion, especially regarding the strength of Ripley vs Becky. I saw a positively nuts Twitter poll last Tuesday asking if Liv Morgan should be added to it... because the build ABSOLUTELY justifies adding a third wrestler out of the cold with one week left. Then I got some bollocks from a random nutcase suggesting Becky is nowhere near as over as she used to be, and that Ripley vs Lynch is not as big a deal as Becky vs Belair and Charlotte vs Ripley in previous years. That's after the year in which Becky worked the Trish teaming then feuding, and Mami made the second belt truly mean something and went on last at Elimination Chamber. I mean.... EDIT - it's worth rewatching this, just to underline how much star presence this woman exudes.

Reigns is going to tie then beat Hogans record of being “the main event” at Manias by going on last on both nights of a (stupendous) two night Mania? Even though it’s the same Mania, it will break the record? Clutching at anything to make Roman sound the all timer he isn’t, really. Probably not worth my time analysing the record keeping of a company that celebrates the “25th Anniversary” of something that happened 24 years previously. But to be fair, it sounds like the “8” for Hogan includes going on last impromptu at Mania IX where I think you’ll find just like VIII it was promoted as a double main event… so, Hogan & Beefpiece vs Money Inc was a main event, so that’s 9. And to be fair, if Roman’s claiming two main events because he’s going to go on last in the first half and then ACTUALLY on last of the same Mania… I think you’ll find Hulk Hogan was the main event of the first tape of Mania IV, meaning our Terry managed 10 main events across the first 9 Manias. If WWE can have its own maths, so can I, the numbers don’t lie, and they spell disaster for you at Sacrifice. Hulk Still Rules.

I feel like this topic has come round time and time again ; did you know X was only Y years old when this match happened, why the WWF was so keen on presenting a Jake Roberts as ancient at 41 when many wrestlers ended up winning the big belt in their 40s, did we realize The Rock is older now than Hollywood Hogan was in their match at Mania 18, and so on. So.... for your interest, presented with a minimum of editorial and hopefully no bias in context, and far from intended as a complete reference tool, are a series of events over the years of my wrestling knowledge where the ages of the wrestlers are either made reference to or are particularly interesting. What I was getting at here was that times have certainly changed in terms of what "old" is as a pro wrestler at the peak of their profession, but moreover, just wanted to provoke any thoughts you have about any of these. 1989 Throughout - Ric Flair has arguably his greatest year in the ring ever, the vast majority of which coming after his 40th birthday (Feb 20th). 1991 March - At WrestleMania 7, Sgt Slaughter (42) vs Hulk Hogan (37) becomes the oldest Mania main event for combined age. This record will stand until Taker vs Reigns at Mania 33. 1992 January - Ric Flair wins the Royal Rumble and his first WWF title at the age of 42. April - WrestleMania's title match is Ric Flair (43) vs Randy Savage (39). Meanwhile Hulk Hogan is portrayed as considering retirement when he goes on his latest sabbatical at the age of 38. July - Bob Backlund returns to the WWF after 8 years away, at the age of 42. Much is made over the months to come over the inspirational story of his return at such an advanced age, despite him being younger than Ric Flair. September - Flair wins the WWF title for the second time. 1994 June - With the "New Generation" campaign having kicked off in earnest, the WWF has the temerity to close a PPV with Roddy Piper (40) vs Jerry Lawler (44). November - Mr Bob Backlund challenges for (and ultimately wins) the WWF title at the age of 44, drawing comparisons from the commentary crew to George Foreman who had recently won the World title in boxing at the age of 46. 1996 January - "Billionaire Ted's Rasslin War Room" airs on episodes of Raw, taking pot shots at the ages of Hulk Hogan and Randy Savage - 42 and 45 respectively when they air. Throughout - Much is made of Jake Roberts' age (41) during his comeback. Notable is the commentary of Owen Hart at King of the Ring, hilariously saying he's 51 or 61 at various points to emphasize that he's past his best. November - At Survivor Series, JR makes a quip about "covering a bald spot" in a sly reference to Hulk Hogan (43) during the comeback match of Bret Hart (39) as well as underlining that Hart and Steve Austin are "not past their prime, they're IN their prime." 1997 July - Ric Flair (48) vs Roddy Piper (43) is one of the top billed matches at Bash At The Beach. August - Bret Hart wins his fifth WWF World title at SummerSlam, a shade over 4 weeks after his 40th birthday. October - Jim Cornette rips into the Hulk Hogan vs Roddy Piper match at Halloween Havoc, noting things like Hogan's bald spot and Piper's hip replacement. Fans will retcon the "title" of the match to "Age In The Cage" (coming so soon after "Hell In A Cell") though Corny himself didn't actually say it. Ages - 44 (Hogan) vs 43 (Piper). November - At Survivor Series, on his way out, JR puts emphasis on Bret Hart making his debut "at the age of 19, in 1978" so alert viewers can do the maths that he's "old". 1998 March - At Mania 14 "LOD 2000" puts a fresh coat of paint on the Road Warriors attempting to create an exciting new act out of Animal (37) and Hawk (41). Underneath, Terry Funk (54) wins the tag titles. 2000 January - The allusions begin to Mick Foley being broken down and knowing he needs to retire at just 34. Meanwhile his idol Terry Funk (55) works a hardcore match at WCW Souled Out with Kevin Nash (40). March - The top matches of Uncensored include Sting (a day shy of 41) vs Lex Luger (41) and Hulk Hogan (46) vs Ric Flair (51) which goes on last. 2001 April - The company puts on a "Gimmick Battle Royal" at Mania 17, for laughs at some of the stars of yesterday. Including Michael Hayes (42), Repo Man (42), Typhoon (42) and Earthquake (37). 2002 January - WWE brings back the nWo as Hulk Hogan (48), Kevin Nash (42) and Scott Hall (43). March - Hogan wrestles a huge match at Mania 18, vs The Rock. August - Shawn Michaels (37) comes out of retirement looking like he hasn't missed a beat. 2003 March - Steve Austin (38) is forced into retirement with a neck injury. 2006 November - Ric Flair (57) and Roddy Piper (52) win the tag team title from The Spirit Squad. 2008 March - Ric Flair (58) loses his first retirement match to Shawn Michaels (42). 2009 April - Mick Foley (42) beats Sting (49) to win TNA's World title. 2010 Feb - TNA, at the peak of Hogan & Bischoff bringing back all their mates, have Team 3D (a sprightly 37 and 38 in comparison) defend the tag belts against The Nasty Boys (both 45). March - WrestleMania 26 is headlined by Shawn Michaels (44) vs The Undertaker (45 by 4 days). 2011 February - Sting (51) beats Jeff Hardy to win the TNA World title for the 3rd and final time. August - Kevin Nash (52) waddles out at the end of SummerSlam to cost CM Punk the WWE title. October - Sting (52) vs Hulk Hogan (58) happens at Bound For Glory, Hogan's final big televised match. December - Triple H (42) vs Kevin Nash (52) is one of the top matches at TLC. 2013 April - The Rock (40) drops the WWE title to John Cena (35) in the culmination of a two year long storyline. The other top matches are Triple H (43) pinning Brock Lesnar (35) and The Undertaker (47) continuing "The Streak" against CM Punk (34). 2014 January - Goldust (45) and young Cody lose their tag titles to Road Dogg (45) and Billy Gunn (51). April - Dave Batista (45) contests a Mania main event with champion Randy Orton (34) and winner Daniel Bryan (32). 2015 March - At Mania Triple H (45) defeats Sting (56 by 9 days) in one of the marquee matches. 2016 April - Triple H (46) loses the WWE title to Roman Reigns in the main event of WrestleMania 32. On the undercard the company presents The Undertaker (51) vs Shane McMahon (46) in Hell In A Cell. At a combined age of 97, compared to 87 for Hogan vs Piper in "Age In The Cage." November - The first match between Brock Lesnar (39) and Bill Goldberg (49) happens at Survivor Series. 2017 Febuary - John Cena (39) loses the WWE title for (as it stands) the final time at Elimination Chamber. March - Bill Goldberg (50) wins the Universal title at Fastlane. April - The Undertaker (52) goes on last at Mania, losing to Reigns. 2018 January - the first womens Royal Rumble occurs, a real highlight of which being the pop for Trish Stratus (43) at number 30. 2019 April - WrestleMania 35 features, as one of it's marquee matches, Triple H (49) vs Batista (50). However in Ronda Rousey (32) vs Becky Lynch (32) vs Charlotte (just gone 33) the main event is the youngest since Mania 19 (Angle at 34 vs Lesnar at 25) for average age of wrestlers or excluding Lesnar as a freakishly young outlier, Mania 18 (Jericho at 31 vs HHH at 32). August - Fresh new alternative AEW crown Chris Jericho (48) as their first World Champion. 2020 January - Edge (47) returns in the Royal Rumble. February - Bill Goldberg (53) wins the Universal title from The Fiend at Super Showdown. March - The Undertaker (55) wrestles his last match, the cinematic boneyard match vs AJ Styles (42) - at 97 years combined age, the oldest match ever at a Mania. October - Sting (61) returns to wrestling in AEW - by March, he's having matches again. 2021 January - Bill Goldberg (54) challenges Drew McIntyre for the WWE title at the Royal Rumble. Edge (48) wins the Royal Rumble, but won't win the title at Mania. August - John Cena (44) is positioned as challenger to Roman Reigns for SummerSlam. Bobby Lashley (45) defends the WWE title against Goldberg ; Reigns (36) is the only wrestler younger than 40 in two singles matches for World titles on the show. October - Goldberg vs Lashley is one of the top matches at Crown Jewel, won by Goldberg to win their feud. 2022 January - Brock Lesnar (44) vs Bobby Lashley (45) is the WWE title match at the Royal Rumble. February - Goldberg (55) vs Reigns occurs for the Universal title at Elimination Chamber. April - Steve Austin (57) comes out of retirement after many, MANY attempts by WWE, and defeats Kevin Owens at Mania 38. July - Ric Flair (73) wrestles a match heavily promoted as his retirement match at the show titled "Ric Flair's Last Match" though he has suggested that, in fact, it will not go down as his last match. 2023 Throughout - Trish Stratus (47) completes a triumphant return year, including winning the Womens tag titles with Lita (also 47), competing in a Money In The Bank match and putting over Becky Lynch in a cage match at Payback. August - Edge (49) wrestles his last match for WWE. November - CM Punk (45) returns to WWE and is immediately positioned as a threat to Raw's World Champion, Seth Rollins. December - Adam "Edge" Copeland (50) wins the TNT title in AEW before immediately losing it on a "cash in" type deal straight back to Christian Cage (also 50). 2024 January - The Rock (51) returns to TV and immediately makes allusions to challenging Roman Reigns. Reigns defends the WWE title at the Royal Rumble in a four-way with AJ Styles (46), Randy Orton (43) and LA Knight (41). March - Sting (64) wrestles his retirement match. Mick Foley (58) starts talking about a retirement match. So.... thoughts? Anything that surprises you there? I mean, there's a fair amount of hypocrisy, but it's wrestling, so that really shouldn't.

As if it wasn’t obvious I’m far more interested in the past than present of wrestling…. I’d like to talk about house shows, and their step-sister, dark matches from TV tapings. I’ve a weird obsession with stuff that happens for consumption by a live crowd not intended for TV which is out of the ordinary for one reason or another. I’m talking about matches that never happened on TV, surprising results, finishes which are different from what you’d get on TV, that kind of thing. I’m going to pretend it’s topical because the other night Sasha Banks pinned Becky Lynch to win a dark match four way and hardly anyone pins The Boss on TV but… fuck it, you know me, I’m really here for the Hulkamania era, Coliseum Video tapings and the dawn of Attitude, right before the amount of content went crazy and everyone ended up wrestling everyone. I won’t lie, I’ve got a good few examples lined up that I want to share that I’ve found fascinating over the years but it would be TL:DR to do in one go. Hopefully it will be clear why each is noteworthy. Not every example I’ve read up on has been made available online but where it has, I’ll share. Here’s the first example of what I mean. There was a house show at the Meadowlands in 1995 right before Survivor Series where a heel Davey Boy pins Bret clean. That being a heel pinning a face cleanly right before the face wins the WWF title. Bret didn’t do many clean jobs in his time as a main eventer and most of those were against other babyfaces, Bulldog of course was being kept strong on TV from his turn, pinning Diesel (as WWF Champion) in a six man, not getting beat when they wrestled at In Your House in Winnipeg, pinning Razor who was Intercontinental champ at Survivor Series, all leading to his shot at (new WWF Champion) Bret for the belt at the December In Your House. They make reference to this result in the build for the title match on TV and refer to Bulldog beating Bret “every time” they’ve wrestled including “most recently at the Meadowlands.” It’s pretty good as a means to building Smithers as a formidable challenge and promoting that big things still happen untelevised so you should still go to your nearest house show. The finish is pretty typical of the kind of thing they loved to do in their matches with each other and with Owen - Bulldog goes for a reverse monkey flip, Hitman kneels down and tries to pin him, Davey rolls over and gets Brets legs under his armpits for a nice snug 3. People think 1995 was rubbish but looking back at the live experience at bigger towns now with 2022 eyes, it was still the bollocks. Everyone’s over, Finks announcing, the crowd get told come back next time because Undertakers going for the belt…. brilliant fun. Feel free to add thoughts or your own examples. I’d love to learn something I didn’t know. If LOD did a job for the Beverly Brothers on an unused Coliseum match or Barry Horowitz kicked out of the Perfect-Plex on a B show in Wichita, I’d love to hear about here. Maybe Stone Cold did a clean job for Jeff Jarrett we never heard about? Whatever you find interesting about house shows and unaired matches from TVs, stick it in here. Might die a death but at least I’ve got somewhere to dump my findings! EDIT - it’s been taken down now. So here’s their seldom-seen match from Kuwait instead.

So, there was some absolutely scintillating chat over the last 24 hours about El Matador's Hasbro figure in the questions thread. and with mod approval (well, one of them anyway) I thought it vital that we start an exciting new thread where we can all talk about Hasbros - nothing like that "New wrestling figures" thread, this is strictly for that dusty bag you've got sat in the loft. You know the one, where if you actually picked it up by the handles, the plastic would disintegrate causing The Mountie and Warrior #3 to fall helplessly to the dusty floor. Yes, this is a catch-all thread for the Hasbro chatter, so it needn't infiltrate any other threads - Questions, Random Thoughts.... post about Hasbros in here, or not at all. I can't stress this enough. Hasbro discussion that pops up in other threads, I suggest, be met with the same haughty derision in the tone of "Take it to the Hasbro thread" with which we all currently scorn noobs for posting a random question anywhere but the question thread. * So get cracking. We want to hear it all. Or at least, if you want to tell all, do it here. Who did you buy first? How many did you get, which ones do you still lust after, did you have any playground trades that you later regretted, did your little brother bury The Mountie in the garden etc? Do you have any of the "rare" ones? Remember that time you saw Greg Valentine in the white Rhythm & Blues jacket in WWF Magazine or that Hasbro you bought that mentioned the Beverly Brothers on the back BUT THEY NEVER CAME OUT, DAMN IT! Tell us about your whacky Hasbro fed storylines where you changed people's finishers because of the limitations of their mold, did "doppelganger" stories because you had multiple of one character, or where the nWo invasion was a real cross-promotional gig and the top heels were The Mountie, Shredder and Egon from Ghostbusters. Here are my contributions to some of those topics, in brief : My first Hasbro was the Anvil. His first feud was The Model because for a while I only had them. I have a fuckton of Hasbros including from the green card ones, purple Crush, white Yokozuna, Adam Bomb and Billy Gunn. They're mostly in a plastic bag in my loft. I hated the hats on Undertaker and The Mountie because you couldn't put them in the Perfect Plex with Perfect. I put Ultimate Warrior #2 and Ultimate Warrior #3 together as a tag team imaginatively entitled "The Ultimate Warriors" and they were forever fighting whoever won the latest Demolition vs Kamala & Bam Bam match. In 1995 my mate bullshitted me that he came back from the States with Hasbros of Diesel, Henry Godwinn, Hakushi and Waylon Mercy. then "forgot to bring them in" for a few days before I realized he was full of shit, and never talked to him again. There you go, you've got the idea. Drop your Hasbro bants into this thread, and this thread only. Here we go Butch, I've tried. * SOLE EXCEPTION : Should Ian ever wish to attach "Did he have shit on the market?" to one of his excellent bio threads, Hasbros to be permitted.