Official ROH Discussion Thread

[gadge]

It seems this is my 512th post in this thread. Hmmm.

 

Best in the World - New York, NY - 26/6/11

 

Arguably the biggest show in ROH history at this point, what with being back in the Hammerstein, new owners to impress, TV to get ready for, and a World title match a few months in the making. Dave Prazak is back on commentary for the first time in a little while alongside Kevin Kelly, except for a couple of matches but I'll explain about that as we get there.

 

Generation Me vs Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly - I'll start with this one, as it was the opener of the live show, but didn't feature on the iPPV, so is tucked away in the bonus section of the DVD. There's no commentary on the match as a result, which doesn't really make a difference. The DVD chapter is only ten minutes long, so you know there's not going to be an epic here, and it's no surprise when they start with the high tempo action almost immediately. The Hammerstein Ballroom is rammed, and the largest live crowd in ROH history eat this up, which certainly helps the match come across as really good while it lasts. The Bravado Brothers run in causing a DQ at 7:12 (in favour of Cole and O'Reilly, who had the upper hand at the time), but get destroyed by both teams afterwards. This was fine for what it was, and nicely sets a storyline up for when GenMe get contractually clear of TNA later in 2011.

 

Colt Cabana vs Tomasso Ciampa - The main show feature begins here. It's difficult to tell if the show had any kind of intro when it was an iPPV, as we start with Cabana's entrance and without any formal welcome. This is your standard Cabana match, where he makes a fool out of his opponent for awhile with his European array of moves, which is entertaining enough but way beyond the point where one match makes any impact compared to another. The problem for Ciampa is he has an undefeated streak going, and is billed as the "dominant male", but all he does here is survive Cabana until he gets the chance to hit Project Ciampa into a botched pin at 6:58. No-one hangs around long enough after that for us to dwell on anything...

 

Jay Lethal vs Mike Bennett - The first five minutes of this are pretty good, as Bennett's persona shines in front of the big crowd, and he genuinely looks like a star for awhile there. Lethal, meanwhile, gets a rapturous reception on his ROH return, and has more than enough experience to play up to the big occasion as well. The problem, as usual, comes once they get deeper into the wrestling side of the match. Unlike Ciampa, Bennett gets the chance to control his matches, but most of Bennett's offense is as limited as Buff Bagwell which is boring as hell. If Bennett ever develops the in-ring side to the point he can at least keep the match watchable, he should make something of himself. For some reason though, he decides to go for something that could have been an attempted top rope elbow, and Lethal rolls out of the way anyway. The Randy Savage elbow then gives Lethal the win at 9:43. Nice to have Lethal back.

 

Homicide vs Rhino - This is a No Holds Barred Barrio Streetfight, which certainly suits the stylings of both men at this point. Actually, I say that, but I've always liked Rhino. They have the advantage of the hot crowd, and start with some big spots, as Homicide hits his tope con hilo early, but then gets dumped through the timekeepers table by a Rhino back drop. Things then cool off a bit as they go for a wandering brawl, but this is still much better than a 2011 Homicide wrestling match. The only real let down is the finish, as Homicide wins by countering a Gore with a sunset flip at 10:16, which the crowd shits on, expecting a more impactful ending. A distraction from Prince Nana sees Homicide get Gored through a table afterwards, though. After all, feuds with the Embassy must always continue...

 

Steve Corino vs Michael Elgin - Of course, it's a bit misleading to just list this as Corino vs Elgin, as really this is "The Kevin Steen return angle". Which, well, isn't as notable seven months after the fact on DVD. I won't recap everything, but the crowd were rabid for Steen to start, then accepted his turn on Corino and ROH in the right way to begin with, but quickly realised Steen was entertaining, and decided actually, they were going to cheer for him anyway. Certainly, Jim Cornette saying Steen was never going to appear in ROH again killed any (kayfabe) credibility Cornette had. Inbetween, Elgin beats Corino in 8:30 of a match which struggled for heat after Steen was thrown out the first time, and I couldn't help but feel that it exposed Elgin's gimmick by putting him on straight after Rhino's match, even though he beat Corino convincingly and helped beat down Jimmy Jacobs in the aftermath. Certainly, I haven't made up my mind on the Steen angle yet. I thought it was weird that there was no commentary on either the angle or the match, as it definitely would have helped get key points across to anyone watching on iPPV.

 

World TV Title: Christopher Daniels vs El Generico - The card really starts to kick into top gear here. I know I've said this before, but Daniels had a much better first half of 2011 in ROH than he did second half of 2011 in TNA. This is one of his best efforts, too, and he easily contributes as much as the ever-reliable Generico here. I really like the way the match builds by mixing in good amounts of character rather than just relying on mountains of nearfalls. Of course, the happy ending helps as well, as Generico wins the title to a rapturous reception, pinning Daniels with the turnbuckle brainbuster at 19:30. This was right up my street.

 

World Tag Team Titles: Wrestling's Greatest Tag Team vs Jay and Mark Briscoe vs The Kings of Wrestling vs The All Night Express - This is elimination style, and gets plenty of time to develop as a result, but to mixed results overall. The opening period is pretty good, with an extended three-way feeling out process between the WGTT, KOW and ANX duos, then a period of chaos when the Briscoes get tagged in for the first time at the 12:00 mark. Things settle down into Briscoes vs ANX for awhile, which maintains the standard of their recent battles, though Kevin Kelly seems to believe their feud ended at Supercard of Honor VI. That just doesn't ring true at all thanks to the way ROH feuds tend to go on. Then, even though the crowd don't exactly shit on it, it seems a bit out of the blue when ANX eliminate the Briscoes when Titus pins Jay after a double team at 24:16.

 

The second session is decent enough too, that is once it gets going after an unneccessary stipulation that the winners of the first fall can nominate the next team to come in. All that happens due to that is the Kings dick about and quickly tag out again. The ANX look good for awhile here, but standard booking means they are the next eliminated, as while they wipe out Claudio with their blockbuster, Titus then walks into a Golden Elbow, and Hero pulls Claudio into the cover at 34:33. The big problem there is that WGTT vs KOW is a done feud, and apart from pops for Claudio's UFO and the big swing spot, there's not much heat for the concluding portion as it's been seen before. WGTT of course retain the titles, Hero being pinned after a double spinebuster at 40:10. The Briscoes lay out the champs with chairs afterwards (including one shot to the head at the start, gasp) until the ANX make the save. This would have been a much better match all round if the booking had lead towards a more heated conclusion, though what we got was fine from an in-ring standpoint.

 

ROH World Title: Eddie Edwards vs Davey Richards - An incredible match in many ways, I'm not going to pretend it's the perfect match or anything, but this is exactly the type of match that ROH has made its name with, done very well indeed. The story of regular tag team partners colliding for the top singles prize, with the added element of champion challenging challenger, is maintained throughout, though there was one spot I didn't like where Richards was hesitant for no obvious reason and Edwards egged him on even though it was to his own detriment. I liked the aggression of Edwards in the early going, and I loved the final minute, where after 35 minutes of both guys being about level pegging with each other, Richards just keeps flattening Edwards with kick combos until he can't kick out any more, and Richards is finally crowned champion at 36:01.

 

They finish the show well, with 14 minutes of post-match included to really let the occasion sink in, and plenty of opportunity for Davey to get mushy about not having a family, and ROH becoming his family. Awww, bless. Shame he wasn't around the next time ROH had an iPPV, but there we are.

 

Overall - This is as essential as ROH shows get in recent times, a fitting conclusion to what was a really good first half of the year, and perhaps the final peak of ROH as an independent entity. The main event is absolutely must-see, the TV title bout is very good, and there's nothing really horrific. DVD run time is 3 hours, 14 minutes, plus there's a load of bonus material.

 

And finally - now that I'm finally up to the era of Davey Richards as ROH champion, and I'm also out of fresh ROH material to watch for awhile, I felt I should comment briefly on the lack of positive vibes for ROH since. The TV show didn't debut until almost three months after this show, and a number of stories concluded here, which was the first problem. Live event-wise, the two shows from July seemed utterly inconsequential, and then there was the return to NY in September, which had very limited build as it was before the TV had debuted, and had no World Champion.

 

When Davey did return, there were no fresh opponents, and after the amount of backstory that went into this one, as Richards had finally proved himself and stepped up to Edwards challenge, it's no surprise that the Richards vs Edwards rematch at Final Battle with the "pure sports" build they went for fell on its arse. Sometimes a story reaches a natural conclusion. The problem for ROH, of course, was where else could they go with the World title?

 

Elsewhere, there's no way to know how much control Delirious had as booker over WGTT being tag champs into the TV era, or Generico jobbing the TV title to Jay Lethal on the first taping, which seems ridiculous after the great reaction to Generico winning the title. Of course, there's not just booking reasons why ROH fans have been annoyed in recent months, with the TV product airing in different markets to ROH's usual areas, live event production levels worse than ECW had almost fifteen years earlier, and various issues with the ability to watch the TV show on the internet.

 

When there's no product of note for three months, and then nothing fresh on offer from being back on TV, is it any wonder that the traditional ROH buzz has gone? I guess I'll get the three major events ROH ran in the back end of 2011 at some point, but I'm not rushing out for it...

Edited January 22, 2012 by gadge

[gadge]

2012 results so far below - I hadn't even thought about looking for results of the TV tapings until today, due to lack of interest. However, I thought (after the end of the above review) it'd be worth seeing if anything from ROH in 2012 actually did look interesting to me, so dug them out..

 

TV tapings (the first show of these actually aired last night, I believe)

<-- click on 'spoiler' to show/hide the spoiler

Devon Storm defeated Antonio Thomas

 

In a dark match before the tapings, Devon Storm (who was Crowbar back in WCW) defeated Antonio Thomas (who, if it is the Antonio Thomas I expect it is, was one half of the awful Heartthrobs tag team in WWE).

 

First Show Taping

 

Eddie Edwards defeated Mike Mondo

 

Edwards was in the ring for the first time since his disappointing loss to Davey Richards at 'Final Battle 2011'. He faced off against OVW regular and a man who has competed in ROH sporadically for some time, Mike Mondo. The crowd were heavily behind Edwards and didn't show much appreciation towards Mondo apart from a 'Spirit Squad' chant. Edwards eventually won the with the 2K1 bomb.

 

Roderick Strong defeated Ricky Reyes

 

Strong defeated the returning Chris Hero at Final Battle and faced off against another familiar name to ROH fans

Edited January 22, 2012 by gadge

[Big Benny HG]

ROH Salvation (24 July 2010)

 

 

"Salvation cannot be found in a garage pasty", so the giant advert on the side of a lorry tells me. Let's see, then, if it can be found in ROH's show of the same name, as the July triple-header comes to a close. I've mentioned it before, but these Chicago events are usually 'bigger' shows with a hot crowd, making them stand out on the calendar.

 

The main focus of the undercard is several matches in the opening round of the 2010 'Tag Wars' tournament, a series taking place over both DVD tapings and TV shows with a format that hasn't been explained and I can't possibly deduce. That said, the tourney is a positive in that it means all these mid-card tag bouts have repercussions based on the outcome, so otherwise worthless filler takes on added purpose and interest. It works too: matches that I wouldn't normally be tempted to take too seriously like The Briscoes vs. The House of Truth and American Wolves vs. Colt Cabana & El Generico are a lot more engaging and enjoyable when you believe they are actually fighting for something. Indeed, both are real good, solid tag team contests.

 

Not even the tournament concept can save Jerry Lynn & Delirious vs. All Night Xpress from being a drab affair, though, that again points to the total lack of connection that the weak Delirious vs. Austin Aries/ANX feud suffers from. The most pleasant surprise of the tournament is The Embassy (Necro Butcher & Erick Stevens) vs. Grizzly Redwood & Rasche Brown. The feud may still be absolute balls, Brown and Butcher are still completely uncoordinated and Stevens is still awfully dull, but I actually enjoyed this. The match is kept quick and exciting, the crowd gets behind it, and it's pretty good fun.

 

Away from the tag tournament, a women's bout of Sara Del Rey vs. Amazing Kong comes as a disappointment when compared to their great collisions at 'Supercard of Honor V' and as part of last night's six-person tag main event. A Pick Six match between Roderick Strong and Austin Aries starts off by telling an interesting story of old partners and rivals who know each other inside out, then falls dreadfully flat for the middle portion, before coming back with an exciting conclusion. The best of the bunch, however, comes from the Kings of Wrestling and GenerationMe/Young Bucks, who collide in a fabulous non-title contest. To my knowledge, this is a first-time match-up, and it more than delivers against expectations. Well-paced, well-structured and well-executed, this is excellent.

 

The main event of the DVD is another in the rapidly growing collection of super Tyler Black singles matches during 2010. Here, he defends his ROH World Title against the promotion's top heel Kevin Steen, with the result being an incredibly dramatic thriller. While on the surface the result may seem obvious, they go back and forth with sizzling action in a brilliant attempt to convince you otherwise. A fantastic match worthy of its 'world title' tag.

 

'Salvation' continues the theme from this weekend triple-header of showcasing ROH's tag team division in a great light, as well as providing one of the best 'B' show main events of the year. While there is nothing on this DVD which could be considered unmissable, 'Salvation' is just like 'Hate: Chapter II' the night before in that it is a really strong showing for one of ROH's secondary events. From a series of shows I wasn't expecting much from, this was pretty damn good.

 

Full show results:

<-- click on 'spoiler' to show/hide the spoiler

Tag Wars 2010: The Embassy (Erick Stevens & Necro Butcher) beat Rasche Brown & Grizzly Redwood with a roll-up

 

Amazing Kong beat Sara Del Rey with a roll-up

 

Tag Wars 2010: The Briscoes (Jay & Mark) beat The House of Truth (Josh Raymond & Christian Able) with a Jaydriller

 

Pick Six Series: Roderick Strong beat Austin Aries with the Sick Kick

 

Tag Wars 2010: All Night Xpress (Rhett Titus & Kenny King) beat Jerry Lynn & Delirious

 

Tag Wars 2010: Colt Cabana & El Generico beat American Wolves (Davey Richards & Eddie Edwards)) with the Billy Goat's Curse

 

Kings of Wrestling (Chris Hero & Claudio Castagnoli) beat GenerationMe (Matt & Nick Jackson) with KRS-1

 

Tyler Black beat Kevin Steen by submission with the sharpshooter to retain the ROH World Title

 

[close spoiler]

");document.close();

 

Up next: there's two shows from August 2010, 'Champions' Challenge' and 'Tag Wars 2010', which wrap up the tag tourney as well as featuring Black in singles main events against both Wolves...

Edited January 22, 2012 by Big Benny HG

[Dearly Devoted Dexter]

The Norfolk show looks spectacularly dire. I read somewhere that attendance was closer to something like 350-400. The Philly show looks a bit better. The Chikara angle doesn't surprise me, as Silkin has popped up on a couple of Chikara events in the past year - he was at KOT 2011, and was also for some reason featured in a recent photo of all the Chikara Gen One guys. Let's hope Quack isn't daft enough to take any booking advice from him

[gadge]

Just what ROH needs! BJ Whitmer returns vs Jay Lethal in Cinncinnati on February 17th...

[Dearly Devoted Dexter]

Just when you think things can't get worse....

[Joey Joe Joe Jr]

Am I right in thinking he did a DGUSA show a while back? Out of interest how did he look?

[Big Benny HG]

ROH Champions' Challenge (27 August 2010)

 

 

ROH heads to Richmond, VA for the first half of their August Mid-Atlantic double-shot. The theme of this twin-header is the World Champion facing both American Wolves in separate singles main events, as well as the closing stages of the 2010 'Tag Wars' tournament.

 

The tag tournament bouts on offer on this disc come across as a mixed bag. Colt Cabana & El Generico vs. All Night Xpress is a really enjoyable fun contest, which shows how well the ANX are coming along as a credible tag force. The match is also interesting for the interference of Steve Corino, as the fantastic feud with Cabana and Generico continues to rumble on. On the other hand, Dark City Fight Club vs. Bravado Brothers and Briscoes vs. The Embassy (a ridiculously-attired Necro Butcher and Prince Nana, substituting for Erick Stevens, who fell foul of flight difficulties) are both really poor offerings which fail to engage.

 

The negatives don't end here. An encounter between 2 of ROH's top stars, Davey Richards and Kevin Steen, just doesn't work. It's awkward, disjointed and never really gets any momentum going. I recall these 2 contesting a wonderful stunt-based hardcore-style corker in 2009, but this comes nowhere near equalling that and simply doesn't deliver. In addition, regardless of his brilliant grudge with Generico, Steen is more and more starting to resemble an Easter egg in a bathing costume...

 

Worst still, successive post-intermission bouts of Bobby Dempsey & Cedric Alexander vs. Jake Manning & Caleb Konley, then Kings of Wrestling vs. The Set, then Steve Corino vs. Jeff Early, then Corino vs. Roderick Strong (who arrives late to the building and fights in his civvies) are completely, completely worthless and kill the show, dead. The only point of at least limited note is another very brief clash between Corino and Cabana ahead of them meeting again at 'Glory By Honor' next month.

 

The 'Champions' Challenge' title on this DVD refers specifically to the battle of the belts as World Champ Tyler Black takes on Television Champion Eddie Edwards in the non-title main event. By this point, it is now common knowledge that Tyler Black is heading to WWE and this is incorporated into his character as he adopts a superior, high-and-mighty, elitist heel attitude. It's certainly different to what we've seen from him so far. They are pushing that Black is trying to leave the promotion with the belt, similar to the CM Punk angle in 2005, and it does keep things interesting while he is on his way out. The match itself is smashing, far and away the best thing available on this DVD. The crowd is slow to get into it, clearly deflated from the pile of manure which preceded it, but Black and Edwards eventually pull them back with some sterling action.

 

One noticeable major improvement on the DVD comes in the form of the commentary, now handled by Kevin Kelly and Dave Prazack. The duo are much better than previous combinations at telling stories and getting situations and personalities across, and it really adds something positive to the matches. The problem is that decent commentary and a cracking main event cannot begin to save 'Champions' Challenge'. Seemingly recognising it is such a weak offering, they try to sweeten the package by including 3 (severely dated) HDNet matches on the disc as bonus content. It should also be noted that ROH, presumably in recognition of how cack it is, have now made this entire show available to watch for free on it's website by its members. If you are a member, you might want to check out the main event alone but, decent as it is, even that can't be considered unmissable.

 

While the July weekender seemed to indicate there was still such a thing as a decent ROH 'B' show, 'Champions' Challenge' manages to go some way in completely undoing that. A thoroughly rotten DVD, avoid like the plague.

 

Full show results:

<-- click on 'spoiler' to show/hide the spoiler

Tag Wars 2010: All Night Xpress (Rhett Titus & Kenny King) beat El Generico & Colt Cabana to advance to the final. Generico was left to fight alone when Cabana brawled out of the arena with the interfering Steve Corino

 

Tag Wars 2010: Dark City Fight Club (John Davis & Cory Chavis) beat The Bravado Brothers (Lance & Harlem)

 

Tag Wars 2010: The Briscoes (Jay & Mark) beat The Embassy (Necro Butcher & Prince Nana) with a Jaydriller

 

Davey Richards beat Kevin Steen with a kick to the head

 

Bobby Dempsey & Cedric Alexander beat Jake Manning & Caleb Konley

 

Kings of Wrestling (Chris Hero & Claudio Castagnoli) and The Set (Jay Sin & Lance Lewd) fought to a no contest when The Briscoes ran in

 

Steve Corino beat Jeff Early with a lariat

 

Roderick Strong beat Steve Corino with the Sick Kick

 

Tyler Black beat Eddie Edwards with his feet on the ropes

 

[close spoiler]

");document.close();

Edited January 23, 2012 by Big Benny HG

[Dearly Devoted Dexter]

Am I right in thinking he did a DGUSA show a while back? Out of interest how did he look?

 

He did work a couple of the September shows if memory serves, but haven't seen them yet

[I Bent My Wookie]

so why the comment about just when you didn't think it could get worse?

[Dearly Devoted Dexter]

Because Whitmer's always been shite, and unless you've got a tremendous Humean argument against induction lined up, I doubt that his performances in Sept will make much difference to my opinion. Next question.

[moofasa]

Do you look like this?

 

Because you sound like this.

 

Because Whitmer's always been shite, and unless you've got a tremendous Humean argument against induction lined up, I doubt that his performances in Sept will make much difference to my opinion. Next question, Leonard.

Edited January 24, 2012 by moofasa

[I Bent My Wookie]

Tremendous humean argument lined up? well nice to see instead of the usual crap you shit out you've managed to pass a thesaurus through your body this week Triple D.

 

So it's going to seem like I'm going off at the deep end but really, its posters like you that try and sap anything fun and exciting out of wrestling.

 

Honestly, you talk some real shite. You constantly go out of your way to criticise nearly everything on the Indy scene in the US (Evolve's weak shows, ROH's weak undercard, stale opening matches, blah blah blah) honestly if wrestling grates you that much that you have to find a negative with near everything then why the fuck are you still watching it?

 

You seriously must be the unhappiest moron on this whole board, if you're not talking white noise, you're talking bollocks.

 

Whitmer's always been shite? Now there's a lot wrong with the ROH product, a superplex into an over the ropes suplex and tryingto finish a match with 100 kicks followed by a heel hook probably being the most glaring one but Whitmer coming back on board? That probably is a better one for them.

 

The guy was awesome in the early days of ROH, his feud with CZW and with Jacobs both were played out brilliantly and did some great stuff when the time called for it. I can't see how you can claim someone to be shite when involved in one of ROH's hottest ever angles. That's like saying the whole nWo angle was wank because Hogan was shit. Just with a few million less watching...

 

Honestly, judging by your posts in here and elsewhere, all it seems is if people aren't being dropped on their heads non stop for 20 minutes, it bores the crap outa you. So I'm guessing Whitmer doesn't fit the mold? Well call in the villagers, time to burn someone at the stake.

 

Seriously, its late, I'm ill and tired and as per Triple D is passing off some crap, narrow minded, bitter opinion as obvious fact.

 

As for the full counter to your amazingly worded comment. Opinion buddy. They're like assholes. Everyone has one. In your case, you have the distinction of being one.

 

EDIT: It's definately late, I just mixed Encyclopedia up with Thesaurus

Edited January 24, 2012 by Toilet Rapper

[PowerButchi]

TripleD thinks that Whitmer is a BIG MAN, and that Tyler Black vs Richards was the "Flair vs Steamboat of our generation"! He's bad at knowing wrestling in general, Rapper. Just ignore him. He won't reply to you anyway. Just let him drown in his sea of mongosity.

[Only_The_Strong_Survive]

 

Mark Briscoe is god!