UFC 164: 'Henderson vs Pettis II'

[wandshogun09]

It was Benson standing up doing a little jog on the spot that really got me though. That was not the reaction of a man who just had his arm popped and just lost his title!? The little jogging thing really made me think the fight was to continue. Its the act of a childish egotistical twat.

 

That was weird. I took it like when you see someone trip in the street and they start jogging as if to say, 'you thought I tripped then, you are wrong, I was just going for a leisurely jog.' He looked really embarrassed and I suppose when you're embarrassed in front of a huge crowd and on TV, in a fight that was meant to redeem your last embarrassment, you do some weird things.

 

Where does Vera go now?

 

Mark Hunt, on the Australia card in December, would be my pick. If he loses that, let Bellator headline their next PPV with him vs Kongo or something.

 

Poor old TJ Grant. I guess that's what he gets for not being cool, gangsta or flashy. He does have an epic beard though, which should count for something. You can throw Ricardo Lamas into that category as well, that poor fucker has finished both Erik Koch and the latest man about town Cub Swanson.

 

He even stood aside to allow Pettis vs Aldo when it got booked originally, yet the word that all guys who simply rely on their ability to win fights fear, the "superfight" will likely see him shafted as well.

 

Hopefully this "superfight" goes the same way as the rest and we see Pettis face Grant, and Aldo face Lamas (I don't think Aldo beats Lamas by the way).

 

Yeah, Grant has earned it. You won't see me say otherwise. I was bigging TJ Grant up back when he was having fantastic fights in front of half full arenas in his prelim curtain jerker days. I'm chuffed to see his run to the title since he dropped to lightweight. I wouldn't have a problem with Pettis vs Grant being next. Or Aldo vs Lamas, Swanson or whoever.

 

But when you get chance to make a fight like Aldo vs Pettis, I think you should book those fights while you've got them. It's a fight that was already booked for UFC 163 and fell apart, and it's a fight a lot of people were excited for. They waited and waited on making the Anderson vs Jones/GSP fights and now those fights are dead, for the time being at least.

 

With Lamas, I think part of the problem is he's been quite inactive. He's fought only twice in 2012-13 and while very impressive wins, you can make just as strong a case for Mendes and Swanson to get the shot ahead of him. The only thing Lamas has really in his favour over those two is that Aldo hasn't already battered him.

 

 

Or what about Mir vs Overeem? Loser leaves town?

 

Yeah, I'm all for that. I suggested that as well. Overeem's cardio is just as bad as Mir's but I don't see Mir weathering that initial storm like Browne did. I think Overeem would knee his ribs in.

 

The way he dismantled Mir was glorious. Joe Rogan can fuck off, though, clearly Mir was knocked out by the knee, but instead of accepting the correct decision he decided to defend his mate. What's really dumb is he is usually the complete opposite with this, but you know Mir is his pal, so there.

 

To be fair, Rogan is quite pally with Barnett as well. So I think he was treading carefully at the end there so as not to offend either of them. Which is stupid really because he shouldn't let stuff like that interfere with his job.

 

He's done that before though. He immediately called early stoppage when Wanderlei Silva kneed Cung Le's nose sideways. And he complained about the Paul Daley-Martin Kampmann stoppage as well. Both of which were just stoppages and had he waited to see the replays before diving in two footed, he'd have seen that.

 

I can see Mir's point on this. If you were him you'd complain as well. He definitely was badly hurt by the knee but the ref didn't really give him any opportunity to work out of it. Look at the second Mir-Nog fight, Mir looked done there but he came back to snap Nog's arm. Fights like Lesnar-Carwin and Edgar-Maynard were allowed to go to GBH levels. Even McDonald-Pickett the other week. There's no consistency. On the other hand, Mir took a huge knee flush and he did go limp for a second. In that moment he looked to be out so the ref has to save him. He recovered quick and looked clear eyed, but if you go limp like that, even just for a second, you leave the ref no option but to call it.

 

Wasn't a bad stoppage but I can see Mir's complaint. But fuck him he's a twat. None of this takes away from Barnett's performance. He did everything right, and as he said, had the ref not jumped in when he did, there'd have only been more to come.

[David]

Yeah, Grant has earned it. You won't see me say otherwise. I was bigging TJ Grant up back when he was having fantastic fights in front of half full arenas in his prelim curtain jerker days. I'm chuffed to see his run to the title since he dropped to lightweight. I wouldn't have a problem with Pettis vs Grant being next. Or Aldo vs Lamas, Swanson or whoever.

 

But when you get chance to make a fight like Aldo vs Pettis, I think you should book those fights while you've got them. It's a fight that was already booked for UFC 163 and fell apart, and it's a fight a lot of people were excited for. They waited and waited on making the Anderson vs Jones/GSP fights and now those fights are dead, for the time being at least.

The thing that always get's me is, what happens to the loser? Say Pettis KO's Aldo in emphatic fashion. Is Aldo still credible as a champion? I wouldn't think so.

 

To be honest, neither guy has cleaned out their division, which is what Dana always claims is the pre-requisite for a superfight.

[wandshogun09]

I hear you but if you think like that, you'd never put your champions in risky fights. What happens if GSP gets brutally laid out by Johny Hendricks in November? That's the UFC's biggest PPV draw possibly damaged.

 

I see your point but if you want to see the best fight the best, there always has to be a loser. BJ Penn quit on his stool against GSP in January 2009, by December 2009 people were calling him the greatest lightweight ever and claiming him unbeatable. Superfights don't necessarily mean the end for the loser. Penn went on his best run after the loss to GSP.

 

On the last bit, clearing out a division hardly ever actually happens. There's always someone else coming into the picture. Jon Jones and GSP are the only ones who have really pretty much cleaned up. There's really only Gustafsson and Glover left for Jones, and Hendricks for GSP. Even Anderson after years of dominance, still had Weidman, Jacare, Bisping, Belfort again to get through.

[David]

I hear you but if you think like that, you'd never put your champions in risky fights. What happens if GSP gets brutally laid out by Johny Hendricks in November? That's the UFC's biggest PPV draw possibly damaged.

Wand, that's not even nearly the same! If Hendricks lays out St-Pierre he wins the title. St-Pierre loses his title.

 

If Pettis beats Aldo in a 'super-fight', who's title is up for grabs? Both titles? No titles? If Aldo loses in a non-title fight he then has to fight his next bout as champion immediately after getting laid out, you get me?

[wandshogun09]

Yeah I get that. It's not the same, wasn't meant to be I was just saying there are risks like that with all the champions/draws.

 

Your second point, like I said, BJ Penn. He quit against GSP. That's worse than getting knocked out in a way. He gave up on the stool rather than go out for round 5 and take more punishment. He had to defend his title against Kenny Florian in his next fight a few months later. It turned out OK for him.

 

I don't even know what I'm arguing. If Pettis vs Grant and Aldo vs Lamas get booked next, that's fine with me. I don't even disagree with you on that. But Aldo vs Pettis is a fight I really want to see. Maybe Aldo will go up to 155 soon anyway and we can see it for the lightweight title. After Grant, no-one really stands out as a clear cut challenger at 155. So Aldo could possibly get the shot quick.

[wandshogun09]

Pettis at his Dad's grave;

 

[David]

I don't even know what I'm arguing. If Pettis vs Grant and Aldo vs Lamas get booked next, that's fine with me. I don't even disagree with you on that. But Aldo vs Pettis is a fight I really want to see.

Hey, so do I, but I think it would be better if Aldo said he was going up to 155lbs and dropped the 145lbs title. I just don't see how a champion can possibly take a KO loss then be expected to walk out at their next fight with a title around their waist.

 

I understand that their reputation can be rebuilt over time, but not for their next fight. That's impossible I feel.

[niff]

To make Barnett's win even more impressive, he was at a near 100lbs weight disadvantage against Mir;

 

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic here or not. Mir looked amazing? A rematch?

Wandshogun explained it better for me.

But yes I'd have liked for Mir to have been finished off! And a rematch to stop him from thinking he still could have won, plus it would be great to see Barnett again. Like Butch, he's won me over. As for the match itself I thought Mir sealed his own fate snubbing Barnett at the start it looked to have fired him up. I've been enjoying the last few UFC shows tremendously. Makes up for the substandard baseball and football coverage from BT.

[jimufctna24]

My picks have been sub-par lately, But I came 3rd on MMA Playground overall for this one, Pettis winning was the icing on the cake.

 

The opener was top draw, the first round maybe the best MMA round I have seen all year. Mendes looked good against Guida, just better in every aspect of the game.

 

Rothwell vs Vera I did not pay attention to as much, as just as it was starting my Brother walked in the room and bellowed "what is this shite, not that Ultimate Fighting" We chatted about boxing and why he thinks BT Sport will fail for the first two rounds, he left the room with the statement "cannot get into this, load of rubbish" From what I saw from Vera and Rothwell, I could not disagree at that stage. It was sad as someone he really rated Vera once to see him get flattened by Rothwell.

 

The Co-Main I will admit I got wrong. Barnett is much better in the clinch than I gave him credit for. I was mildly glad to be wrong as I like Barnett, and think he is good for the sport with his motor mouth. The stoppage was premature, but give it another 10 seconds and Barnett I think would have finished proper, much like Carwin did to Mir a few years back.

 

Pettis winning is the best MMA result for me in many a year. Finally, 155lbs has a Champion who appears worthy enough to take over from BJ Penn. Bendo and Edgar were never accepted by fans as worthy Champions, as they won their belts in dubious circumstances, and whilst they were Champion did not show they were the clear number one. The latter I am hoping Pettis does, and I strongly believe he will.

 

There was no debate last night, despite Bendo controlling the opening round until the end, Pettis showed who was boss when he had the room to fire of those kicks. No way could Bendo take those for another 4 rounds, the striking gap between the two was too vast in my opinion for there to be any other winner. The submission was bit anti-climatic, but it showed there is more to Pettis's games. Edgar and Melendez from my memory did not come close to subbing Bendo, despite them being seasoned grapplers. Last night felt like a Jones/Shogun or GSP/Hughes passing of the guard for me.

 

A great night for the UFC. In Barnett they have a fresh and much needed contender at Heavyweight, and in Pettis they have a new Superstar who is a marketable and exciting fighter with many years ahead of him. I think the Showtime era has a good ring to it.

[wandshogun09]

Yeah, results wise, this was one of my favourite UFCs in a long time. The worry with Pettis is injuries. He seems to pop or tweak something every fight. If he can stay healthy, he could be the man at 155 for a good while. If he keeps getting hurt he could be the next Shogun.

 

I understand that their reputation can be rebuilt over time, but not for their next fight. That's impossible I feel.

 

BJ Penn did that though. January 2009 - quit against GSP, his very next fight in August 2009 - schooled Florian. Reputation restored. Then he wrecked Diego Sanchez in the December to put the exclamation point on it. It was only after that, when he dropped Marv Marinovic from his camp that he went on the slump.

[David]

BJ Penn did that though. January 2009 - quit against GSP, his very next fight in August 2009 - schooled Florian. Reputation restored. Then he wrecked Diego Sanchez in the December to put the exclamation point on it. It was only after that, when he dropped Marv Marinovic from his camp that he went on the slump.

Their reputation as a champion. Does no one understand the difference here? You'd have someone losing a high profile fight then going into their next fight as a champion.

 

That's a ridiculous idea, and I would hope the UFC would either put the stoppers on the idea of a 'superfight' altogether, or ask one of them to relinquish their title and move weight class.

[jimufctna24]

Their reputation as a champion. Does no one understand the difference here? You'd have someone losing a high profile fight then going into their next fight as a champion.

 

That's a ridiculous idea, and I would hope the UFC would either put the stoppers on the idea of a 'superfight' altogether, or ask one of them to relinquish their title and move weight class.

I get you.

 

The only thing is that Aldo vs Pettis was on deck before this, so fans are entertaining it in their heads. Wand makes the decent point about BJ, he came out of his superfight losing none of his drawing power, and looked better than ever after it. Fans still bought him as Champion, that could be the exception to the rule though.

 

I would personally hold of on Pettis vs Aldo. I am probably a bit of a Pettis fanboy, but I honestly think Pettis would beat Aldo, so it is not because I do not want my fighter to lose. I just think give it a few years and some title defenses on both sides the fight will be worth more, I have a lot of confidence both can succeed in more title defenses.

 

Aldo may move up sooner rather than later and vacate anyway. Regardless if there is a TJ Grant or whoever waiting, I would expect and hope Aldo to be fast tacked to face Pettis or whoever when he does move up. I think if you move a weightclass as Champion, you should be automatically a number 1 contender in the weightclass you move to.

[wandshogun09]

It clearly didn't harm his reputation as a champion too much though did it? That's what I'm saying. And that's why when you say it's impossible to to restore your rep as champion in one fight after a loss like that, BJ Penn showed that's not necessarily the case.

 

I appreciate that BJ Penn had a loyal fanbase and it won't be the same for everyone, but the point stands, he was crushed by GSP and then went on to put in two of his greatest performances back to back that same year. People thought GSP was too strong and still bought into Penn's GOAT status as a lightweight at the time. Just like GSP losing to Anderson at 185 or a catchweight would have had no bearing on GSP's status as a welterweight. It's a stand-alone attraction fight.

 

While I'm here, Barnett's post-fight interview with Ariel Helwani;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=fPv0lTWbXWM

 

Nearly pissed myself at his dancing at the start.

[David]

Neither Aldo nor Pettis hold the same kind of status within the sport as Penn, St-Pierre or Silva though, do they? Both St-Pierre and Silva had been champion long-term when their much talked about 'superfight' was on the cards, and Penn had won multiple titles at different weights.

 

All of them were considered legends of the sport. I don't think either of these guys have the status and the fight history for that to wash.

 

Look, all I'm saying is, both Aldo and Pettis have very capable challengers waiting on shots against them. They haven't cleaned out their divisions, and they aren't 'super-fight' status in my mind. As was mentioned, Aldo was scheduled to fight Pettis originally, and whilst it was a fight worth looking forward to, it was never a 'superfight'.

 

If they want to do it, then one of them should drop their title and move weight.

[jimufctna24]

If they want to do it, then one of them should drop their title and move weight.

I think that is more likely to happen, then Champion vs Champion to be fair. Even if it happens next or in a few years, both seem pretty keen/open to change weightclasses.

 

I think it is possible in 3 years if Pettis is Champ at 145lbs and Aldo sis Champ at 155lbs.