Scottish Football Discussion Thread 2010/11

[Reznor]

Yeah, but once those "Old Firm fans until they die" actually do get old and die, or move on in life, there will be a younger generation who will grow up seeing the likes of Hearts, Hibs, Motherwell and Aberdeen challenge for league titles, win league and Scottish cups and play in the memorable European ties that come along with all of that.

 

For example, Motherwell experienced the biggest growth in fans during and after the Scottish cup run of 1991 and the decent league finishes that followed.

 

Games against the likes of Borussia Dortmund are still fresh in my memory, and those types of games created new fans of a younger generation, a fair percentage of which have remained.

 

Imagine if Motherwell were actually able to keep progressing at that time? Imagine if the league title wasn't a pipedream?

 

That generation won't know Rangers & Celtic in the same way as we do now, as both clubs will undoubtedly have changed.

 

For example, both will make the usual noises about stamping out bigotry and the like, but if they find their appeal in one of the biggest leagues in the world being affected by a percentage of their fans moronic behaviour you can bet that they'll get all kinds of serious about it.

 

So you actually mean that the SPL without the Old Firm would become strong, but only after decades when new kids are born and can see through the evil of the Old Firm. What happens until then? And what makes you so confident in the assumption that by such time, Celtic and Rangers would still be struggling in the English lower leagues or mid table premiership? Once settled in such a league, their standing, additional money and huge fanbase would suggest there's far more chance of them becoming big players, and as such, the fairweather fans would also choose them rather than anyone in a 3rd rate SPL. Remember that younger generations would also grow up watching Celtic and Rangers, they aren't disappearing. And the vast majority of kids whose parents supported the Old Firm will themselves support the Old Firm. Your theory imo is just oversimplified idealism.

 

With your success in the 90s and Aberdeens/Dundee utd's in the 80s, the big difference is they were actually the best in the country (or in your case, second best). They were doing it against the traditional giants of the Scottish game and holding their own in Europe, and there was infinitely more glory and achievement involved in that. As i've already said, winning the league without the Old Firm is no different to finishing 3rd at present, only you'd be given a trophy for it. It's about as hollow as it gets. You'd be as well just leaving things as it is and creating a league within the existing league with a piece of silverware for 3rd place.

 

And the main reason the Old Firm attract the attention they do is because of the backwards religious shite we see throughout Scottish society.

 

It's starting to dwindle away as time passes and our country becomes more multicultural and modern, but both of those clubs represent the last bastion of such a society.

 

See, the rest of Europe can have a positive view of Celtic & Rangers (well, not so much Rangers) because they see them every now & then for a big European tie. We have to put up with their tribalistic, neanderthal behaviour every weekend.

 

The English FA wouldn't put up with that shit every week, and Rangers and Celtic would have to seriously look at changing their ways or they would get dumped.

And therein lies the real basis of your point i suspect. Bitterness towards the Old Firm. Kinda ironic really, and quite amusing for fans who do regularly travel to some of the provincial teams grounds, yours included.

 

Actually, fans behaviour is not considered when calculating UEFA coefficients, as i'm sure you know. If you want to talk about that stuff i'll be happy to argue with you elsewhere, but as you also know, it's got absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand. I'll move on.....

 

Think about it this way, if the OF were to fuck off at the end of the season, we would have a season where any of four or five teams could realistically become league champions.

 

If Hearts, for example, were to win the title for the first two seasons you honestly think that there wouldn't be players that would look at them, and the chance to play European football, that wouldn't have looked at them when they were guaranteed to win fuck all?

 

That means the quality of player would increase.

Nope. No Old firm = less money = less quality. If they want to get good, then they'll have to develop great youth players in numbers, because no-one's going to be attracted to the SPL which would become even more of a joke league than it is just now. And if creating success and quality through youth was so easy, everyone would've done it by now.

 

And what's with this assumption that more European football would be a formality. Even now with the Old Firm, there is no longer automatic CL qualification, yet you think someone like Motherwell or Hearts will start qualifying regularly and enjoying all these glory nights? With less money, and no opportunity to challenge yourselves against good sides domestically, there is no way teams are going to significantly improve. Currently, you usually fail miserably in Europe, and that's just the UEFA Cup. So what on earth would make any of you think that you're suddenly going to become competitive at European level, particularly with no Old Firm to bump up the coefficient to give you more spots or get you in at a later qualifying round? Time for a reality check.

 

Actually, if Hearts were to win a non-OF Scottish League for two years on the trot, then the rest of Scottish football should be praying that their financial crisis is as bad as reported, otherwise you'd most likely be going from a two horse race to a one horse race for the foreseeable future. They are the #3 club in Scotland in this day and age, and the one club who do have ambition, a good steady support and would be likely to pull away from the rest. And what would happen if they do - would you want them to fuck off to England too? It's hypothetical obviously, but it raises a valid point; What if one team grabs the opportunity, gets it right and becomes the dominant force? there's your promised land of a 'competitive league' down the swanny.

 

Rangers and Celtic take around 40% of the television money between them.

 

With the current deal with ESPN being worth, say,

[sgmilne]

Who do you support Reznor?

 

Because I support Dundee United and I would suggest that Dundee United fans wouldn't care in the slightest if we never got the 'chance to beat the Old Firm' again. For a Dundee United fan, the attractive games are Aberdeen, Dundee and St. Johnstone.

 

Despite what the media might say and the Old Firm fans might think, fans of 'provincial' clubs do not give a shit about the Old Firm. We don't get excited about playing the Old Firm or the Old Firm in general. That's your worst arguement yet.

 

In terms of players being attracted to Scotland because of the Old Firm, those days are pretty much gone. In the main, the imports these days are either loans in from the Premiership who come in to develop - not to play the Old Firm - or guys like Gomis and Buaben of United who came from obscurity.

 

Again, it has to be said - just because the Old Firm would be playing in England does not mean that Scottish football would no longer produce players. Of course it would. Some of the best younger players to emerge from Scotland recently have been from clubs like Hamilton and Livingston, not Rangers or Celtic. Dundee United currently have about 11 first team squad members who are from the Tannadice youth system, 2 from Dundee's youth system, one from Hearts', one from Ayr, one from Berwick and one from Queen's Park. None from either of the Old Firm.

[The Cum Doctor]

More Morton fans turned up for an away game at Motherwell in the Scottish Cup than turned up for a home game against Celtic. True story.

[unfitfinlay]

Now if you take that to its core level - the point where someone chooses what team they will support at school - kids will have a choice. They could support the teams from a different city who are stuck around the same level as Bolton Wanderers, or they could go along to see their local side who have a chance of winning the SPL.

 

They won't though. As I said before, those kids will start following the big teams with the world class players they see winning Trophies on Sky Sports, not the "diddy league".

 

And going back to the point about the quality of player - it may have escaped your attention but there are practically no teams buying players from abroad anymore. It's either picking up young foreign players who are looking to use the SPL as a stepping stone, older guys winding down their careers, or Scots.

 

Just because Rangers and Celtic aren't here, it doesn't mean the youth systems wont work. We'll still have Scottish players coming through, which worked for us back in the 1960s-1980s.

 

They could bring them through but they wouldn't be able to keep them. Any player with any kind of quality would leave the moment a lower league English team came sniffing around and offered to triple their wages. We'd end up with a "Premier League" full of players that would struggle in the current First or Second Divisons.

[InvertedSmiley]

Wow, somebody cares an awful lot about who's going to take over their greatest rivals.

 

Could be worse, we could have a chairman who sent hundreds of soldiers to their deaths in a false war.

With a track record like that, I'd love to see Craig Whyte take over Rangers.

[Reznor]

Who do you support Reznor?

 

Because I support Dundee United and I would suggest that Dundee United fans wouldn't care in the slightest if we never got the 'chance to beat the Old Firm' again. For a Dundee United fan, the attractive games are Aberdeen, Dundee and St. Johnstone.

 

Despite what the media might say and the Old Firm fans might think, fans of 'provincial' clubs do not give a shit about the Old Firm. We don't get excited about playing the Old Firm or the Old Firm in general. That's your worst arguement yet.

 

In terms of players being attracted to Scotland because of the Old Firm, those days are pretty much gone. In the main, the imports these days are either loans in from the Premiership who come in to develop - not to play the Old Firm - or guys like Gomis and Buaben of United who came from obscurity.

 

Again, it has to be said - just because the Old Firm would be playing in England does not mean that Scottish football would no longer produce players. Of course it would. Some of the best younger players to emerge from Scotland recently have been from clubs like Hamilton and Livingston, not Rangers or Celtic. Dundee United currently have about 11 first team squad members who are from the Tannadice youth system, 2 from Dundee's youth system, one from Hearts', one from Ayr, one from Berwick and one from Queen of the South. None from either of the Old Firm.

Celtic.

 

So you get a better feeling beating St Johnstone than Celtic or Rangers. Ok. Easy to say for arguments sake i suppose. 'You' have always been into your west coast bias theories, and in my experience, love little more than stuffing the Old Firm. In truth, everybody does. In every league in the world, beating the good teams is a big deal. I know many fans like to act dismissively of the Old Firm to give the impression it's just apathy, but for the most part, it's anything but - it's an intense dislike.

 

I never said players are attracted to the wee teams because of the Old Firm; players with no ties are attracted by money, and the Old Firm are by far the greatest generators of it in Scotland. It should go without saying that you'll have more chance of a better team if you are wealthier, whether it's by buying players, paying wages of loan signings, or investing in your youth system. That said, English teams are more likely to loan out players to SPL sides knowing they will face decent tests v the Old Firm, and you'll have more chance of signing young prospects looking for a stepping stone whilst you're in the same league as the Old Firm because they give the league at least a bit of credibility. Most English managers would want to see how they do against decent sides before forking out hundreds of thousands. Otherwise, these potential loan signings and prospects would be as well going to the English 3rd tier for experience.

 

And again, where did i say that Scotland would no longer produce players? Of course they'll produce players - you always have, but it's not exactly been enough to make you a good team for the past quarter century. Talented kids aren't likely to be churned out in sufficient numbers to compensate in quality for the Old Firm leaving to give the SPL any respectibility. And they'd lose all the decent ones to the English lower leagues anyway. None of the teams are going to improve, and even if you're lucky and can remain at the same level, without the Old Firm the SPL would plummet in the rankings, euro spots would dry up and the league would just be a desolate backwater which no-one outwith the die-hards would be interested in.

[sgmilne]

Probably not St. Johnstone, but certainly a better feeling beating Dundee or Aberdeen. Yes, it was a great feeling to beat Celtic last year but that's because it was so long since the last victory.

 

The best feeling though was the win against Ross County. Not because of the team we were playing but because of the significance of the occasion. And that's the point - there would be more significant occasions for the other teams.

 

The Old Firm being here doesn't really make any difference towards what United can afford to pay in wages. It did with the Setanta deal, but this current deal is poor and the Old Firm still get the lion's share. A small piece of a large pie is just as big as a large piece of a small pie, and that's what would happen if they left. BBC Scotland or STV would likely buy up the rights on reduced terms but the other clubs would get a greater share as a result.

 

And it wouldn't really make too big an impact on our European co-efficient either. Rangers are doing well, but they are the exception and not the rule. Celtic were terrible - they had the worst result of all the Scottish teams in Europe.

 

re: Kids supporting the teams with world class players - well by that logic they'd already be doing that. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Motherwell would suddenly get crowds of 20,000, but they would add about 3000 to their gate on a regular basis. A successful Aberdeen would get about 15,000 as would a successful Hearts or Hibs. United would level out at about 9000 (or if there was no Dundee FC probably about 12,000). These are big enough numbers to sustain full time football based mainly around Scottish players.

 

If young Scots wanted more money they'd go to the English lower leagues now. Not just when the Old Firm left.

 

The other key point you're missing is that we don't really care about being 'respectable' in the eyes of other nations. Hell, if you think having the Old Firm here makes us more respectable, then more fool you.

[unfitfinlay]

re: Kids supporting the teams with world class players - well by that logic they'd already be doing that. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Motherwell would suddenly get crowds of 20,000, but they would add about 3000 to their gate on a regular basis. A successful Aberdeen would get about 15,000 as would a successful Hearts or Hibs. United would level out at about 9000 (or if there was no Dundee FC probably about 12,000). These are big enough numbers to sustain full time football based mainly around Scottish players.

 

They already are, at least where I live anyway.

 

When I was growing up I rarely saw somebody wearing a replica shirt that wasn't Rangers, Celtic or Scotland. Now I see loads of kids wearing Man United, Chelsea, Real Madrid, Barcelona etc. It's happening slowly but it IS happening.

 

If young Scots wanted more money they'd go to the English lower leagues now. Not just when the Old Firm left.

 

I think you've missed the point. They don't go now because Scottish teams can still afford to pay them respectable wages. If the Old Firm left, budgets got sliced and first team players were on the kind of wages that young players are on now it would be a very different story.

 

The other key point you're missing is that we don't really care about being 'respectable' in the eyes of other nations. Hell, if you think having the Old Firm here makes us more respectable, then more fool you.

 

I would think the biggest concern would be looking respectable in the eyes of TV Stations and sponsors. They won't finance a shit product with a very limited appeal will they?

[David]

So you actually mean that the SPL without the Old Firm would become strong, but only after decades when new kids are born and can see through the evil of the Old Firm.

No one mentioned "the evils" of the Old Firm. I said that teenagers who live local to the likes of Motherwell, Aberdeen etc will be more interested in coming along every week to see a team who have a chance of winning something.

 

Sure, there'll always be a percentage of what some would call fairweather fans who prefer to sit at home and watch football on the telly, but the truth is, if clubs such as Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs, Dundee Utd etc can pull in somewhat decent crowds just now, when they have the chance to win virtually fuck all, logic tells you that those crowds will increase when they have a chance of winning a title.

 

And what makes you so confident in the assumption that by such time, Celtic and Rangers would still be struggling in the English lower leagues or mid table premiership?

Did I say that? If I did, you'll have to point it out to me as I can't remember mentioning that.

 

Once settled in such a league, their standing, additional money and huge fanbase would suggest there's far more chance of them becoming big players, and as such, the fairweather fans would also choose them rather than anyone in a 3rd rate SPL. Remember that younger generations would also grow up watching Celtic and Rangers, they aren't disappearing. And the vast majority of kids whose parents supported the Old Firm will themselves support the Old Firm. Your theory imo is just oversimplified idealism.

Again, fairweather fans are the type who would rather watch a game on TV regardless of what's going on, so i'm not even figuring them into the equation.

 

It's quite simple. If you don't think the crowds that non-OF clubs get at present would grow somewhat when their team has a chance of winning something, then you're an idiot.

 

I never mentioned anything about Scottish football being a force, or suddenly becoming interesting to anyone beyond our borders. In fact, i've mentioned the Norweigan league and said that i'd be happy to take that level of success eventually.

 

With your success in the 90s and Aberdeens/Dundee utd's in the 80s, the big difference is they were actually the best in the country (or in your case, second best). They were doing it against the traditional giants of the Scottish game and holding their own in Europe, and there was infinitely more glory and achievement involved in that. As i've already said, winning the league without the Old Firm is no different to finishing 3rd at present, only you'd be given a trophy for it. It's about as hollow as it gets. You'd be as well just leaving things as it is and creating a league within the existing league with a piece of silverware for 3rd place.

Okay, well, if it ever does happen, you come along and see the title celebrations of the club involved the first season both OF are gone. I doubt the words "hollow victory" will getting mentioned much during the party.

 

And therein lies the real basis of your point i suspect. Bitterness towards the Old Firm. Kinda ironic really, and quite amusing for fans who do regularly travel to some of the provincial teams grounds, yours included.

Ah, the classic line trotted out by an Old Firm fan whenever a fan of another club dares to question the outdated religious bigotry that is the reason Rangers & Celtic pull in as many fans as they do.

 

Actually, fans behaviour is not considered when calculating UEFA coefficients, as i'm sure you know. If you want to talk about that stuff i'll be happy to argue with you elsewhere, but as you also know, it's got absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand. I'll move on.....

You're right that UEFA co-efficients have nothing to do with the discussion at hand, which is why you'll find that I never mentioned them.

 

What I said was "The English FA wouldn't put up with that shit every week, and Rangers and Celtic would have to seriously look at changing their ways or they would get dumped"

 

The English game has had a massive facelift in the past 15 years or so, with some major (and expensive) moves to rid their game of crowd trouble and the stigma which was attached to the English game for years.

 

Their product is now clean, exciting and fresh. It is aimed at a worldwide audience, and it's success is based on that worldwide audience buying into the product.

 

What I said was, the typical tribalistic, backwater moronic behaviour of the Old Firm fans simply won't wash down south. They have too much to lose these days to chance having a bunch of cretins like the Green Brigade bringing shame onto their game in front of a worldwide audience.

 

Nope. No Old firm = less money = less quality. If they want to get good, then they'll have to develop great youth players in numbers, because no-one's going to be attracted to the SPL which would become even more of a joke league than it is just now. And if creating success and quality through youth was so easy, everyone would've done it by now.

In your opinion, of course.

 

My opinion, and that of plenty of other people, is that a boradcaster would be interested in picking up the rights to a league which will basically start every season with four or five teams in contention for the league title.

 

Contrary to what you believe, no one associated with those clubs will be giving you lot a second thought once you're gone. There'll be no "hollow victories".

 

And what's with this assumption that more European football would be a formality. Even now with the Old Firm, there is no longer automatic CL qualification, yet you think someone like Motherwell or Hearts will start qualifying regularly and enjoying all these glory nights?

Again, you're simply reading what you want to from what i've posted.

 

I never mentioned anything about Champions League football, did I? I said European football.

 

It stands to reason that if Motherwell are qualifying for the Europa league three seasons out of four for example when the OF are still here, then they will stand a much greater chance of qualifying for such a competition on a more regular basis when you lot are gone.

 

That will result in European nights on a more regular basis, no?

 

With less money, and no opportunity to challenge yourselves against good sides domestically, there is no way teams are going to significantly improve. Currently, you usually fail miserably in Europe, and that's just the UEFA Cup. So what on earth would make any of you think that you're suddenly going to become competitive at European level, particularly with no Old Firm to bump up the coefficient to give you more spots or get you in at a later qualifying round? Time for a reality check.

Seriously Rez, you need to start actually reading what i'm writing.

 

Did I mention being competitive at European level? Nope.

 

Also, I take issue with you claiming that we "fail miserably". Take this season for example. Celtic failed miserably. Motherwell did not.

 

We had a decent run in Europe, and I got the chance to see some cracking games at Fir Park. Our season as far as Europe goes was not a failure.

 

Actually, if Hearts were to win a non-OF Scottish League for two years on the trot, then the rest of Scottish football should be praying that their financial crisis is as bad as reported, otherwise you'd most likely be going from a two horse race to a one horse race for the foreseeable future. They are the #3 club in Scotland in this day and age, and the one club who do have ambition, a good steady support and would be likely to pull away from the rest. And what would happen if they do - would you want them to fuck off to England too? It's hypothetical obviously, but it raises a valid point; What if one team grabs the opportunity, gets it right and becomes the dominant force? there's your promised land of a 'competitive league' down the swanny.

No, it doesn't raise a valid point Rez, it raises a shitty point.

 

The table below the OF has always been close in recent years, and i'd be looking at my own club to be challenging for the title in such a scenario.

 

Another thing you may want to understand is that we don't just want you to leave because of the fact you win most trophies.

 

We want you to leave because we simply don't like the past that you and your fans represent. Once you're gone we may see referees actually able to do their jobs without fear of harrassment, we may see an end to the talk of vendettas against certain clubs, and we most certainly won't miss "the people", "the establishment" and the sight of a load of overweight knuckledraggers doing the bouncy.

[David]

I'm under the impression that you think the Scottish League would thrive and prosper without Celtic and Rangers and everyone would be happy with it.

It really couldn't be any worse than it is at present.

 

As things stand, we get a paltry share of the TV money, which means we really can't afford to progress, and we have no chance of winning anything.

 

On top of that, we have to put up with you lot, and all of the redeeming qualities I mentioned above.

 

There is no way any provincial club fans would be happy at never getting a chance to beat the Old Firm again. For the top 6 teams, games v the Old Firm are some of the biggest in the calendar, particularly at home, and moreso in recent years when they've been there for the taking many a time.

Not in my calendar they aren't.

 

It may just be me, but I view games with the Old Firm as a chance to maybe pick up some bonus points. Nothing more.

 

My big games, and games which I refuse to miss, are the ones against Hearts, Hibs and Dundee United. Those three clubs are our competition for a European spot, so games against them are vital to me.

 

Most fans of Motherwell that I know really couldn't give a fuck about either of the Bigot Brothers, or their silly little two team league that they operate on their own every season.

 

The only time I care about their results are when they involve any of the three teams I mentioned above, for obvious reasons.

 

So you get a better feeling beating St Johnstone than Celtic or Rangers. Ok. Easy to say for arguments sake i suppose.

Christ, your inability to accept that the Old Firm aren't the be all and end all of our footballing lives is cringeworthy.

 

Why can't you just accept that we don't care all that much about the Old Firm? You two sit at the top of the league by yourselves, re-enacting the sporting equivalent to the battle of the Boyne every season.

 

No one else really gives a shit. We sometimes get interested in the Old Firm game itself, but that's an interest akin to seeing one of those crazy car chases on America's Toughest Cops or whatever. We watch out of curiosity more than anything else.

 

without the Old Firm the SPL would plummet in the rankings, euro spots would dry up and the league would just be a desolate backwater which no-one outwith the die-hards would be interested in.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't all of that already happening with the Old Firm in our game?

[sgmilne]

I think you've missed the point. They don't go now because Scottish teams can still afford to pay them respectable wages. If the Old Firm left, budgets got sliced and first team players were on the kind of wages that young players are on now it would be a very different story.

 

No, I'm not the one missing the point. Both you and Reznor seem to think we're living in an age where clubs are paying wages well in excess of what they can afford for every player because of the TV deal. But that isn't true. David Goodwillie for example is a Scotland internationalist. He currently gets paid

[martyngnr]

Actually, if Hearts were to win a non-OF Scottish League for two years on the trot, then the rest of Scottish football should be praying that their financial crisis is as bad as reported, otherwise you'd most likely be going from a two horse race to a one horse race for the foreseeable future. They are the #3 club in Scotland in this day and age, and the one club who do have ambition, a good steady support and would be likely to pull away from the rest. And what would happen if they do - would you want them to fuck off to England too? It's hypothetical obviously, but it raises a valid point; What if one team grabs the opportunity, gets it right and becomes the dominant force? there's your promised land of a 'competitive league' down the swanny.

How are Hearts the No.3 club in Scotland? Granted they are the last team to split the Old Firm but since then they have been 3rd once.

Truth is there is no "3rd force". There hasn't been for years.

 

We want you to leave because we simply don't like the past that you and your fans represent. Once you're gone we may see referees actually able to do their jobs without fear of harrassment, we may see an end to the talk of vendettas against certain clubs, and we most certainly won't miss "the people", "the establishment" and the sight of a load of overweight knuckledraggers doing the bouncy.

David....THIS. A million times this.

[David]

Talking about the harrassment of officials, it would seem that Celtic aren't quite willing to draw a line under the whole carry-on;

 

Celtic chairman John Reid last night insisted blunder referee Dougie McDonald should quit or be fired by his employers at the SFA.

 

Reid said the integrity of the game had to be saved and the only way to do that was to get rid of the whistler who told Celtic manager Neil Lennon a lie after denying the Hoops a penalty against Dundee United at Tannadice.

 

Reid said: "The referee's position should be untenable. He lied and he should not be allowed to remain in his post. He should've been removed or taken the decision to go himself. There can't be any integrity in a system that permits lying."

 

It was an astonishing attack but Reid wasn't finished there.

 

He continued to blast the match official who has now been restored to the SPL list without punishment after an inquiry by the SFA.'s own Referee Committee.

 

Reid said: "This referee lied and conspired and then attempted to cover-up what he'd done. It undermines everyone's confidence if he's allowed to stay.

 

"If the SFA. have any sense at all they will recognise this incident as a beacon and an indicator. Their own position as the game's governing body is untenable if they don't deal with this situation properly."

 

And Celtic chief executive Peter Lawwell insisted McDonald should never be allowed to handle another Celtic match.

 

He said: "I'd be astonished if he gets one of our games. There must be other ways of keeping him occupied rather than sending him here."

 

Reid, meanwhile, last night backed moves to have referees declare their club allegiances.

 

He told shareholders at Celtic's Annual General Meeting that he backed the move to help 'protect and bolster' the authority of match officials.

 

But Reid drew applause when he said: "We don't seek special treatment for Celtic and we have never claimed to be better than anybody else.

 

"But we will not be treated as less than anyone else. We don't claim a monopoly on wisdom but maybe the SNP's sports spokesman, Peter Wishart, was right when he suggested refs should list their allegiances."

 

Reid's remarks were his first public comment on the controversies since ref McDonald admitted telling a lie to Lennon after rescinding his own decision to award Celtic a penalty against United.

 

Assistant referee Steven Craven resigned after that game as he admitted the match officials had colluded to deceive the Celtic boss and the club have pursued the SFA. for 'clarification' over a number of issues arising from that weekend.

 

Reid said: "There has been criticism of Celtic and allegations of attacks, goading and name calling.

 

"Shareholders shouldn't mistake our silence up until now as a lack of resolve or ideas. If lies have been told or there has been a conspiracy to tell lies then this must be treated seriously.

 

"If there has been a cover-up on the part of match officials that must be treated seriously and that can't be done by tinkering. There needs to be a fundamental review of openness and accountability."

 

Reid's remarks were fully supported by Lawwell who said: "We lost the league last season because we weren't the best side. And we lost the last game to Rangers because we didn't deserve to win.

 

"But it's our right to ask questions about decisions which have materially affected the outcome of games."

 

SA chief executive Stewart Regan promised Celtic an inquiry into the governing body's structures and practices after admitting in a statement that it was unsatisfactory to have McDonald's conduct reviewed by a Referee Committee made up of his former colleagues.

 

Celtic are clearly intent on holding Regan to his word as they believe they haven't always been treated as well as others.

[Bettencourt]

Talking about the harrassment of officials, it would seem that Celtic aren't quite willing to draw a line under the whole carry-on;

 

Celtic chairman John Reid last night insisted blunder referee Dougie McDonald should quit or be fired by his employers at the SFA.

 

Reid said the integrity of the game had to be saved and the only way to do that was to get rid of the whistler who told Celtic manager Neil Lennon a lie after denying the Hoops a penalty against Dundee United at Tannadice.

 

Reid said: "The referee's position should be untenable. He lied and he should not be allowed to remain in his post. He should've been removed or taken the decision to go himself. There can't be any integrity in a system that permits lying."

 

It was an astonishing attack but Reid wasn't finished there.

 

He continued to blast the match official who has now been restored to the SPL list without punishment after an inquiry by the SFA.'s own Referee Committee.

 

Reid said: "This referee lied and conspired and then attempted to cover-up what he'd done. It undermines everyone's confidence if he's allowed to stay.

 

"If the SFA. have any sense at all they will recognise this incident as a beacon and an indicator. Their own position as the game's governing body is untenable if they don't deal with this situation properly."

 

And Celtic chief executive Peter Lawwell insisted McDonald should never be allowed to handle another Celtic match.

 

He said: "I'd be astonished if he gets one of our games. There must be other ways of keeping him occupied rather than sending him here."

 

Reid, meanwhile, last night backed moves to have referees declare their club allegiances.

 

He told shareholders at Celtic's Annual General Meeting that he backed the move to help 'protect and bolster' the authority of match officials.

 

But Reid drew applause when he said: "We don't seek special treatment for Celtic and we have never claimed to be better than anybody else.

 

"But we will not be treated as less than anyone else. We don't claim a monopoly on wisdom but maybe the SNP's sports spokesman, Peter Wishart, was right when he suggested refs should list their allegiances."

 

Reid's remarks were his first public comment on the controversies since ref McDonald admitted telling a lie to Lennon after rescinding his own decision to award Celtic a penalty against United.

 

Assistant referee Steven Craven resigned after that game as he admitted the match officials had colluded to deceive the Celtic boss and the club have pursued the SFA. for 'clarification' over a number of issues arising from that weekend.

 

Reid said: "There has been criticism of Celtic and allegations of attacks, goading and name calling.

 

"Shareholders shouldn't mistake our silence up until now as a lack of resolve or ideas. If lies have been told or there has been a conspiracy to tell lies then this must be treated seriously.

 

"If there has been a cover-up on the part of match officials that must be treated seriously and that can't be done by tinkering. There needs to be a fundamental review of openness and accountability."

 

Reid's remarks were fully supported by Lawwell who said: "We lost the league last season because we weren't the best side. And we lost the last game to Rangers because we didn't deserve to win.

 

"But it's our right to ask questions about decisions which have materially affected the outcome of games."

 

SA chief executive Stewart Regan promised Celtic an inquiry into the governing body's structures and practices after admitting in a statement that it was unsatisfactory to have McDonald's conduct reviewed by a Referee Committee made up of his former colleagues.

 

Celtic are clearly intent on holding Regan to his word as they believe they haven't always been treated as well as others.

 

I actually agree with John Reid on this. McDonald had to resign or had to be demoted at least. I cannot see how a referee who has openly admitted to lying to his senior officer still referee at the top.

 

What's to say it won't happen again ansd he gets away with it? Ok, you can't prove that this doesn't go on every week but it really takes the integrity of Scottish Referees into scrutiny.

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I think you've missed the point. They don't go now because Scottish teams can still afford to pay them respectable wages. If the Old Firm left, budgets got sliced and first team players were on the kind of wages that young players are on now it would be a very different story.

 

No, I'm not the one missing the point. Both you and Reznor seem to think we're living in an age where clubs are paying wages well in excess of what they can afford for every player because of the TV deal. But that isn't true. David Goodwillie for example is a Scotland internationalist. He currently gets paid