Scottish Football Discussion Thread 2010/11

[Dazz]

It all comes back to the clubs taking a stand. I remember Fergus McCann making a big deal of telling the fans to drown out anyone singing anything inappropriate. That sort of thing would be a very good start. If the clubs are throwing people out then they should make a bigger deal of that too, though. How good would it look for Rangers if they put out a wee report every fortnight saying "as part of the club's anti-bigotry efforts, 15 fans were ejected for the stadium and had their season books revoked after stewards spotted them starting a chorus of 'The Billy Boys'. Rangers fans were reminded once again that bigotry will not be tolerated at Ibrox and instigators will be removed and barred from the entering the stadium for the rest of the season." It would also send a message to the rest of the crowd that they could be next, so button it.

 

It does happen, so perhaps making an example and telling people might work.

[Chaka Demus]

The thing is, with points deductions and being thrown out of competitions seeming to be the flavour of the day in answer to this, how do you judge what songs are seen as sectarian? 'The Sash' has been proven in a court of law as not sectarian yet Celtic fans still moan when it's sung. Going by the songs of ours you call sectarian, I would judge 'Boys Of the Old Brigade' and 'The Soldier Song' as sectarian, or at the very least inappropriate. You would need to be consistant with it and you'd have guys behind computers complaining about songs every week.

 

It's part of the way people are brought up in this country and until that stops, no amount of points deductions will ever stop that.

[Kenny McBride]

I disagree. I've got no problem with The Sash. It's a lovely wee tune and when sung with the original lyrics, it's not really anything we can complain about much, even if it's not likely to get sung at any parties I might go to. I think most Rangers fans would ultimately have to be OK with Fields Of Athenry and The Soldier Song (it's the Irish national anthem, for God's sake. Would anyone complain about it at an international game? Do English people complain about Flower Of Scotland which is, as my Irish friend pointed out, just as much a rebel song and just as much about glorifying violence?) The Boys Of The Old Brigade is a questionable one, because it's not about the P-IRA, but that's the way it gets perceived. It's the one traditional Celtic song I'm uncomfortable with.

[Chaka Demus]

I disagree. I've got no problem with The Sash. It's a lovely wee tune and when sung with the original lyrics, it's not really anything we can complain about much, even if it's not likely to get sung at any parties I might go to. I think most Rangers fans would ultimately have to be OK with Fields Of Athenry and The Soldier Song (it's the Irish national anthem, for God's sake. Would anyone complain about it at an international game? Do English people complain about Flower Of Scotland which is, as my Irish friend pointed out, just as much a rebel song and just as much about glorifying violence?) The Boys Of The Old Brigade is a questionable one, because it's not about the P-IRA, but that's the way it gets perceived. It's the one traditional Celtic song I'm uncomfortable with.

 

I don't have a problem with The Soldier Song being sung at Ireland games. I have a problem with it being sung during Scottish league games though. I don't hear Hearts fans singing the Lithuanian national anthem. God Save The Queen is the British national anthem. I don't see what's wrong with it being sung during British teams games. But this is exactly what I mean, people have problems with songs I think are perfectly acceptable and vice versa. Which is why I think it would be impossible to implement any sort of system of punishment for songs.

 

I retract my earlier attack on you Kenny, it was a little over the top. I just disagree with most of what you're saying. Over the years I have genrally found you alright. So I apologize for any offence cause. Genuinely.

[David]

I retract my earlier attack on you Kenny, it was a little over the top. I just disagree with most of what you're saying. Over the years I have genrally found you alright. So I apologize for any offence cause. Genuinely.

It's not often that I say it Ally, but that's a classy move. Let's hope the rest of the discussion on the subject can continue in a similar way.

[bAzTNM Fan]

Just to throw this in there, here is a reasoning I think is pretty close to the truth (although not of my own writing) that I thought was pretty interesting.

 

For many people the world over, Che Guevara was an iconic figure, as was Nelson Mandela, or Martin Luther King. These were people who used different means to convey their message, to fight for their cause. The Hunger Strikers laid down their lives and their actions are remembered not just in the environs of Celtic Park amongst impressionable young lads, but across the world by people with more than a passing interest in what happens in the world. Rangers fans remember Bobby Sands every week in their hate-filled song. In their hearts, though, they know that this was a man who lay down his life for his cause. A real man, and not an imaginary one who died from the 'gallows high' while wishing to see the Antrim glens. There is an interesting story about how the H-Blocks emptied and the Republican wings were full of political tomes, about struggle, freedom, independence... the loyalist wings were full of weightlifting magazines.

 

All diverting from the point (but mentioned because some people have taken offence at the reporting of the boy with the Long Kesh t-shirt),which is this: the Rangers fans do not like Celtic. The reason they do not like it is that it is a Catholic, Irish club, but an open club. It always has been and it always will be. Rangers are the philosophical opposite. Theirs is a closed club which attracts closed minds. It may employ people from all faiths now, but deeply embedded in the marrow of the club, and the psyche, is the fear and distrust of outsiders. They imposed their own form of apartheid on themselves, and drew a wall around their values like a sporting version of Iron Curtain Albania. David Cameron's Unionist and Conservative government has openly stated the importance of Ireland, not only as a friendly neighbour, but one that provides a massive amount, culturally and economically, to the UK. If he can realise it, why can't Rangers (who have never signed anyone from the Republic of Ireland in relevant memory) or Rangers fans (who like to appropriate traditional Irish tunes for their anthems of hate)?

 

While the world has changed and Rangers have had to adapt (to comply with the law, and also to present a dignified face to a more worldly audience, who can see a local story across the globe as it happens) the fanbase still has intolerance in its DNA. The club can tackle it by admitting they have been, and still are, institutionally racist. But they won't because they are terrified of the broad base of support that stand openly belting out songs about being up to their knees in Fenian blood... feck the Pope and Vatican, no chapels to sadden my eyes, no nuns and no priests, no rosary beads...

 

The 'small minority' of fans are not those who are a disgrace to Scotland and Scottish football. That is the overwhelming majority. The 'small minority' are those who do not join in.

 

While the tabloids and the Establishment papers of Scotland wilfully miss the point (The Scotsman's scandalous diatribe against Artur Boruc, or the ongoing campaign to vilify Neil Lennon), it takes the Times of London to hold a mirror up to the ugliness of the best wee country in the world. Pertinent too that some of the most on-the-nail writing about the Huns and their poison comes from a Rangers fan, man-and-boy, and a son of the Manse. He can write about its dark heart and blackened soul, because he has seen it close up, from the pavement pirates to the hooligans in high places.

 

Football is a pantomime and if people are offended by ribaldry they should find another pastime. However, it should not be the vehicle for a growing groundswell of hate and bigotry. No race, creed or colour would be expected to listen to such a litany of bile in European football. Why do the same laws and morals not apply in Scotland? The answer lies not just in the football grounds, or in Scotland's summers, where a tuneless festival of hate marches through its streets, but in Parliament, where a bunch of media-savvy politicians play a game of equitable blame, only to turn a blind eye to the ugly truth.

 

Kenny McAskill's comments sum it all up: Scotland tolerates intolerance. You can use that for an election slogan.

[Bettencourt]

To get this back onto the topic of Football. I'm going to post some FOOTBALLING legends for the 12 SPL Clubs.

[Benoit's missing tooth]

I've seen you post some absolute trash in your time here but that takes the biscuit even for you. The reason things will NEVER change is because of people like you. No not Catholics/Celtic Supporters/Republicans before you start on the poor me bollocks that you always quickly descend into.

 

You 'seem' to be a reasonably intelligent lad, albeit one with terrible blinkers on. You seem to revel in the fact that Rangers fans are and I quote "Knuckle Draggers" which I assume means that they are neanderthals. Now this is partly true but then again it's not only true of Rangers supporters, Celtic supporters. It's true of supporters of every club and more so just people. Society always has and always will include the stupid or the ignorant. Just look around any city/town/village of a weekend and see the small yet noticeable percentage of people who will get on like dicks. The ones who fight, the ones who are lying in their own sick, the ones who racially or sexually or homophobically verbally abuse people not like them. The only defence that it is at all possible for these morons is they generally don't know any better due to whatever their education or upbringing. NB/ That doesn't mean I in ANY way condone what they do. It sickens and repulses me. This is my problem. You do know better.

 

You know it's wrong to use the word HUN. You know it is offensive to piss over people's culture and heritage but you do it anyway. Your only argument is - well they use Fenian and Taig.If they can do it why can't I? Well that makes you worse than them. Again I say because YOU KNOW IT IS WRONG!

 

I support Rangers. I don't use offensive terms to describe people. I don't sing songs regarding killing of people. I don't send bullets in the post. Why? I know it is wrong. I'm not a fucking moron. If you do it and know it's wrong then you are a fucking bigger moron than any of the Knuckle Draggers as you call them.

 

Feel free to reply to my post but that's it. I've actually had it with this forum after 6 years. If whichever Mod reads this first if they could close my account. I thought this was one place where the pathetic shot taking and banal religious debate wouldn't happen. It's getting worse every day.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

To get this back onto the topic of Football. I'm going to post some FOOTBALLING legends for the 12 SPL Clubs.

[Bettencourt]

To get this back onto the topic of Football. I'm going to post some FOOTBALLING legends for the 12 SPL Clubs.

 

At least that another person posting about Scottish Football.

 

Good on ye!

 

EDIT: Pfft.. Roy Keane? Celtic Legend? Pfft. Actually aye, he will forever be a legend for that hilarious debut of his.

[Hugh Thesz]

Kenny's suggestion of points deductions or elimination from cup competitions is a very strong point as it could, just maybe - maybe, lead to more strident self-policing among fans themselves. The long standing argument from both Old Firm teams at times is a complete non starter as if away fans started to belt out the racist abuse slung at black players (as I remember both in Scotland and England in the "good auld days when fitba wiz fitba" of the 80's) the lack of moral of such a position would shame them.

 

A problem however is how this could be implemented and whet the legal position of such a precedent would stand in both Scots and European law never mind the all encompassing remit of FIFA.

 

Another issue is who is going to be trusted to make such a decision? If both the David Arnott, the Moderator-designate of the Church of Scotland and Mario Conti, Archbishop of Glasgow, were to be part of said panel and agree on a punishment, however punitive, you can bet your ass that one person would be smeared with claims of traitor - whoever it was.

 

Finally there is the thorny issue of who will be the complainant. We have seen on this forum people insinuating "If you said Lennon was racist then I am saying that McCoist was just as bad" and "well, if you say this song is bad then I want this song to be similarly labelled". Whether that is just banter (which I doubt) does that opinion then put into question any complaint made after holding such a view? By the way I'm truly not trying to have a go at anyone here.

 

On a similar note those who attend football matches and make formal a complaint to either Stewards or Police about the behaviour of opposing supporters should be made to understand that footage of them shall be observed in order to identify any inappropriate behaviour. One thing about the infestation of CCTV cameras is that cops I know have told me that it has stopped the long standing practice of loads of taxi drivers or family members of a (non taxi) driver turning up en masse to a police station to false witness statements to a crash they never even saw.

 

I finally stopped going to Celtic games in the season before the move to Hampden due to this shit. I'm sorry to make such a long post but I will give you a perfect example of the perverted mentality of some Old Firm fans - which is relevant to this debate. I support people with Additional Support Needs and before I started working with Children I used to support Adults. One of them found me walking to Ibrox so he could support Rangers very funny as he knew I supported Celtic so we gave each other banter over it. Eventually he dared me to wear a Rangers top which I did adding scarves and a flag over my shoulders. His sister found it as funny as he did and gave permission for me to ping a picture of both of us to my mates. Two intelligent, level headed and long standing mates (one from each side) gave me so much shit over "that's too far", being a "traitor", "Ah no he's handicapped but come on. Fuck sake that's no a top you should wear" and so on that I lost touch with them. Guess what - before I chose to lose contact with them both thought the others opinion was "fucking terrible". That's what we are dealing with.

 

Shuggy

[Hugh Thesz]

Soapy,

 

Where is that essay/article from?

[David]

There was an interesting article from the respected journalist Grahame Speirs on the matter of the recent Rangers & Celtic game;

 

Another week, another excruciating example of the problem Rangers have with a large section of their support. Walter Smith's team, going into Sunday's Co-operative Insurance Cup final as underdogs, won quite a few admirers for their gritty 2-1 win over Celtic. Alas, no one who was at Hampden Park as a neutral, and who had any understanding of the type of songs that were being sung, could have found anything remotely appealing in the antics of the Rangers support.

 

For fully 120 minutes the Ibrox legions belted out stuff about the Pope, ******s, and some of their other favoured subjects.

 

Quite a few of us have become used to "the Rangers problem" over the years but Sunday at Hampden was still quite an eye-opener. It was the consistent, incessant nature of the bigoted chanting that was truly shocking.

 

One of the problems we have in tackling bigotry in Scottish football is the sheer ignorance of the subject that we have to put up with. For instance, Kenny MacAskill, the Scottish Justice Secretary, clearly didn't have a clue what he was talking about, to judge from the fatuous statement he released after attending the match at Hampden.

 

After the prejudiced chants had boomed out, the following was MacAskill's take on the whole spectacle. "This was the showpiece everyone wanted to see

[Kenny McBride]

Apology accepted, Ally. Cheers.

[InvertedSmiley]

Soapy,

 

Where is that essay/article from?

I think it's the second part of a post made by a poster on Kerrydale Street on a thread discussing the very article which David posted a few posts up.