General politics discussion thread

[Kiffy]

Before you go, Kiffy, maybe you can answer a quick question.

 

I've seen plenty of Facebook events for the UAF and organising against the EDL/SDL, but do those same groups stage counter-protests against such groups as MAC & Islam4UK?

 

Happy too, I should point out though that I'm not a member of UAF and don't know a huge amount about them. I have done work with the hope not hate campaign involving flyering against the BNP and obviously still get their newsletters and such so I can offer more in terms of them than the UAF.

But, without pretending I'm part of them or can speak for them, the UAF exist to fight facism, they originally formed to fight the national front (as I understand it, could be wrong). Then the bnp gained in popularity while the national front very nearly died, so they shifted their focus.

Fast forward to now and the BNP are dying but there's a massive rise in a new street protest group called the EDL, who originally counter protested against the MAC, I4UK etc. But very quickly the EDL's protests moved away from protesting only the extremisits, and moved into protesting in heavily muslim areas just because they had large numbers of muslims. In addition to this they started to protest at the opening of mosques, it very quickly became clear that the EDL as a group was an anti-muslim organisation, funded and created by BNP activists to allow racial intimidation and attacks not seen in this country for many years. So they went after that, cos that's what they do.

MAC and I4UK are alot smaller than the EDL or the BNP, or the national front of old. They don't represent anything like the threat to equality that the EDL do. They're religous extremists, of course, but attacking religous extremism was never the aim of the UAF. As an example mary whitehouse was a mental religous extremist, and if her views had been made law we'd live in a much more repressive and boring society. Just as if sharia law came in, we'd live in a much more repressive and boring society, but neither could happen, so it's not entirely worth worrying about.

As offensive as I4UK is, it's not turning up en mass in white areas and racially abusing people for being white. If it did I'd say we would be more likely to see UAF protest against it.

 

So that's (what I know of) the history. However, I said on the page before, it's not how I'd do it. I think I4UK should be linked on the hope not hate's homepage as a hate group, I think the same about MAC.

Would counter protesting by the UAF against muslims extremists make sense? Before the EDL existed it might have done, at this point it would do more harm than good. I'm against I4UK, but if I'm standing next to a guy with "Fuck allah," written on a placard next to me I'm equally against him. It would be a knightmare to police, it would kick off worse than it already does, and honestly, groups like I4UK are so small, and so heavily monitored by the authorites, that they're increasinly unlikely to ever manage to do any harm.

Whereas the EDL does harm on every march and static demonstration it puts on.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Kiffy

[David]

So, the answer is no basically?

[Kiffy]

Hee, yeah that was a bit wordy, tried to give a bit more understanding into what groups like the UAF are, and the reasoning behind it.

But no, no they don't, quite frankly I think they should speak out against it more, but I don't see alot of point in them counter demonstrating I4UK at the moment.

[David]

One could be forgiven for getting the impression that UAF should really be called Unite Against White Fascism, couldn't they? What's good for one bunch of cunts is surely good enough for another?

[Chris B]

One could be forgiven for getting the impression that UAF should really be called Unite Against White Fascism, couldn't they? What's good for one bunch of cunts is surely good enough for another?

 

I think there's possibly the element that I4UK and MAC aren't making out that they're representing English values. The EDL are. So there's a large element of 'not in my name' going on, I think.

 

Also, the mainstream media has (up until recently) given far more coverage to islamic extremists than the EDL, so there are already plenty of voices against Islamic extremism. Look back at the day in Luton when the EDL was formed. A small group of dicks from an Islamic extremist group made headlines, whereas the hundreds of football mentalists that turned up against them didn't get mentioned.

[Kiffy]

One could be forgiven for getting the impression that UAF should really be called Unite Against White Fascism, couldn't they? What's good for one bunch of cunts is surely good enough for another?

 

Not sure that you could really call I4UK fascists, religous extremists certainly but I don't think they actually qualify as fascists.

And the counter to that argument would be that the only fascism that could possibly come to pass in this country is white facism, as the vast majority in the country are still white.

But again, not part of the UAF meself, and would be quite happy to hear that both sets of cunts had been wiped off the face of the planet, while I have a fair few sympathies with the UAF I'm not posting on behalf of the UAF, simply against the EDL. So no matter what the general theory is in regards to the UAF, it doesn't really affect my arguments against the EDL.

[David]

I'm not talking about the media though, I'm talking about groups such as UAF. Surely groups like MAC & Islam4UK can be considered fascist in their beliefs, no?

 

If the answer is yes, then surely their name implies that they would be against such organisations just as much as they are against the BNP/EDL?

 

Not sure that you could really call I4UK fascists, religous extremists certainly but I don't think they actually qualify as fascists.

The definition of fascist as far as I can see is "Extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice", which would mean that such groups as MAC & I4UK should be grouped with the EDL/BNP.

Edited September 12, 2011 by David

[Chris B]

I'm not talking about the media though, I'm talking about groups such as UAF. Surely groups like MAC & Islam4UK can be considered fascist in their beliefs, no?

 

If the answer is yes, then surely their name implies that they would be against such organisations just as much as they are against the BNP/EDL?

 

The fact that you're not asking about the media doesn't mean that the point isn't valid.

[David]

The fact that you're not asking about the media doesn't mean that the point isn't valid.

Look, all I'm asking is why these groups such as UAF, who are quick to jump all over the EDL (and rightfully so) aren't as quick to condemn the opposite end of the same coin?

[Chris B]

Look, all I'm asking is why these groups such as UAF, who are quick to jump all over the EDL (and rightfully so) aren't as quick to condemn the opposite end of the same coin?

 

And I think I gave a valid answer to that.

[David]

And I think I gave a valid answer to that.

You gave an answer, but its validity can be disputed. UAF can't be excused from standing against some fascist groups simply because the media give them more coverage. Going by that theory we should see less protests against the EDL now that they're getting plenty of mainstream coverage?

 

Surely UAF should be united against all fascism, and not just certain groups?

[Kiffy]

I'm not talking about the media though, I'm talking about groups such as UAF. Surely groups like MAC & Islam4UK can be considered fascist in their beliefs, no?

 

If the answer is yes, then surely their name implies that they would be against such organisations just as much as they are against the BNP/EDL?

 

 

The definition of fascist as far as I can see is "Extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice", which would mean that such groups as MAC & I4UK should be grouped with the EDL/BNP.

 

That's a fair point, they should be.

But it's largely irrelevant to the greater debate in regards to the EDL. Even if uaf should be doing more to counter these forms of facism, it doesn't in anyway justify or excuse the actions of the EDL.

[David]

That's a fair point, they should be.

Thank you.

 

But it's largely irrelevant to the greater debate in regards to the EDL. Even if uaf should be doing more to counter these forms of facism, it doesn't in anyway justify or excuse the actions of the EDL.

Of course it doesn't, but it does raise the question of why UAF aren't united against all forms of fascism.

[Chest Rockwell]

You gave an answer, but its validity can be disputed. UAF can't be excused from standing against some fascist groups simply because the media give them more coverage. Going by that theory we should see less protests against the EDL now that they're getting plenty of mainstream coverage?

 

Surely UAF should be united against all fascism, and not just certain groups?

 

 

I think it's fair enough to pick their battles, so long as they aren't saying that they are not, in principle, ideologically opposed to all those other fascist groups that you've mentioned.

 

The justification that Chris has given is that of more of a pragmatic choice of focus.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Chest Rockwell

[Smeg_&_The_Heads]

Hope Not Hate has put stuff up today condemning both the EDL and MAC .

 

I've seen a lot of Muslim people post that they are embarrassed by and hate MAC as they do not represent the majority of the Muslims it's just like the EDL do not represent the majority of the White English.

 

I think a difference is for the most part MAC believe in what they are doing is right (in a twisted way) whereas a lot of the EDL just do it for a punch up and in reality don't give a flying fig about England.