General politics discussion thread

[Happ Hazzard]

So, going back to my scenario then, Happ, you put big posters up telling people that their money isn't safe in banks, but people still have to, you know, get mortgages and put their money somewhere, so hundreds of thousands of people still choose Northern Rock, which then goes bust.

 

Again, how does this scenario play out? What happens next? How does the Happ government deal with that crisis?

You can put your money where you want, under the mattress, in the post office, in a bank. But if you put in a bank, be aware that if the bank goes bust, you're out of luck.

 

If you want a mortgage, I would suggest going to a building society.

[Kiffy]

By the way, did anybody hear the suggestion that instead of just selling all our RBS shares back into the market, the government is now considering giving every adult in the country about 1000 quids' worth of shares to do with as they please? I actually rather like the idea.

 

It's certainly a vote winner, but that much spare money, with the deficit and cuts and everything else. The money's needed more elsewhere.

[Loki]

So, going back to my scenario then, Happ, you put big posters up telling people that their money isn't safe in banks, but people still have to, you know, get mortgages and put their money somewhere, so hundreds of thousands of people still choose Northern Rock, which then goes bust.

 

Again, how does this scenario play out? What happens next? How does the Happ government deal with that crisis?

You can put your money where you want, under the mattress, in the post office, in a bank. But if you put in a bank, be aware that if the bank goes bust, you're out of luck.

 

If you want a mortgage, I would suggest going to a building society.

 

Could you answer the question?

[Kiffy]

It's abundantly clear he cannot.

[Carbomb]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12663730

 

I know lots of people are against banking bonuses but banks like Barclays and HSBC surely there is no recourse considering the money is entirely their own to do with as the please, they're turning a profit, I don't see the problem. I see a problem with RBS giving bonuses as that is legitimately government bail out money.

 

I'm aware there's an anti-success strain that permeates a lot of members here but surely earned money is yours to do with as you please. Nobody forces you to use Barclays and HSBC after all.

 

Straw man. Nobody's "anti-success", that's just knee-jerk rhetoric that comes out whenever someone suggests that businesses should face up their responsibilities to society (and anyone who says businesses are outside society is talking shit).

 

I haven't seen anyone on here advocate against bonuses for Barclays or HSBC executives, and I don't imagine for one minute anyone on here would, largely because most people who've posted on here so far (barring the most blatant exception) haven't displayed a lack of critical understanding worthy of Jade Goody. I certainly don't advocate it, and in fact I'd say if anything, the HSBC and Barclays lot probably deserve theirs just for keeping their banks largely untouched by the recent collapse.

[Kenny McBride]

By the way, did anybody hear the suggestion that instead of just selling all our RBS shares back into the market, the government is now considering giving every adult in the country about 1000 quids' worth of shares to do with as they please? I actually rather like the idea.

 

It's certainly a vote winner, but that much spare money, with the deficit and cuts and everything else. The money's needed more elsewhere.

 

A vote winner at this stage of the game is needless and probably pointless. If they save it until just before the next election, it might do them some good. As a general point of Tory principle though, I think it's amongst their best. A business was effectively nationalised. When it comes to re-privatising it, isn't it better that EVERYONE gets the benefit rather than the minority who have the funds and the access to already be able to play the stock market? The bailed-out banks will almost certainly all recover and become successful again. If we all get a share, we can then all get the nice dividends and/or sell the shares on for the cash reward and/or hang on to them and all get a vote at their AGMs to try and make them more accountable and responsible.

[Loki]

It's a Lib Dem idea, Kenny, incidentally.

[Kenny McBride]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12663730

 

I know lots of people are against banking bonuses but banks like Barclays and HSBC surely there is no recourse considering the money is entirely their own to do with as the please, they're turning a profit, I don't see the problem. I see a problem with RBS giving bonuses as that is legitimately government bail out money.

 

I'm aware there's an anti-success strain that permeates a lot of members here but surely earned money is yours to do with as you please. Nobody forces you to use Barclays and HSBC after all.

 

Straw man. Nobody's "anti-success", that's just knee-jerk rhetoric that comes out whenever someone suggests that businesses should face up their responsibilities to society (and anyone who says businesses are outside society is talking shit).

 

I haven't seen anyone on here advocate against bonuses for Barclays or HSBC executives, and I don't imagine for one minute anyone on here would, largely because most people who've posted on here so far (barring the most blatant exception) haven't displayed a lack of critical understanding worthy of Jade Goody. I certainly don't advocate it, and in fact I'd say if anything, the HSBC and Barclays lot probably deserve theirs just for keeping their banks largely untouched by the recent collapse.

 

This, pretty much. It amazes me that none of the major banks seem to have thought about the PR, though. Imagine what it would do for their public image if one of the banks said "OK, no bonuses over x amount this year. Instead, we're going to make all that money available as zero-interest loans to the best 100/1000/whatever new business plans we receive over the next few months."

[Kenny McBride]

It's a Lib Dem idea, Kenny, incidentally.

 

Makes no odds, really. Liberal economic policy is basically Tory economic policy with a big smiley face painted on it.

[Happ Hazzard]

This, pretty much. It amazes me that none of the major banks seem to have thought about the PR, though. Imagine what it would do for their public image if one of the banks said "OK, no bonuses over x amount this year. Instead, we're going to make all that money available as zero-interest loans to the best 100/1000/whatever new business plans we receive over the next few months."

Banks are businesses. Do you not think they give loans to the best new business plans they recieve anyway?

[Chest Rockwell]

Straw man. Nobody's "anti-success", that's just knee-jerk rhetoric that comes out whenever someone suggests that businesses should face up their responsibilities to society (and anyone who says businesses are outside society is talking shit).

 

I haven't seen anyone on here advocate against bonuses for Barclays or HSBC executives, and I don't imagine for one minute anyone on here would, largely because most people who've posted on here so far (barring the most blatant exception) haven't displayed a lack of critical understanding worthy of Jade Goody. I certainly don't advocate it, and in fact I'd say if anything, the HSBC and Barclays lot probably deserve theirs just for keeping their banks largely untouched by the recent collapse.

 

This, pretty much. It amazes me that none of the major banks seem to have thought about the PR, though. Imagine what it would do for their public image if one of the banks said "OK, no bonuses over x amount this year. Instead, we're going to make all that money available as zero-interest loans to the best 100/1000/whatever new business plans we receive over the next few months."

 

 

It probably wouldn't be so good when all their executives quit en masse and left them in a total mess though.

[Bashar]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12663730

 

I know lots of people are against banking bonuses but banks like Barclays and HSBC surely there is no recourse considering the money is entirely their own to do with as the please, they're turning a profit, I don't see the problem. I see a problem with RBS giving bonuses as that is legitimately government bail out money.

 

I'm aware there's an anti-success strain that permeates a lot of members here but surely earned money is yours to do with as you please. Nobody forces you to use Barclays and HSBC after all.

 

Straw man. Nobody's "anti-success", that's just knee-jerk rhetoric that comes out whenever someone suggests that businesses should face up their responsibilities to society (and anyone who says businesses are outside society is talking shit).

 

I haven't seen anyone on here advocate against bonuses for Barclays or HSBC executives, and I don't imagine for one minute anyone on here would, largely because most people who've posted on here so far (barring the most blatant exception) haven't displayed a lack of critical understanding worthy of Jade Goody. I certainly don't advocate it, and in fact I'd say if anything, the HSBC and Barclays lot probably deserve theirs just for keeping their banks largely untouched by the recent collapse.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...0120106870.html

 

Barclays may not have accepted UK bail-out money, but they indirectly benefitted from the UK bail-out money and, almost certainly with the co-operation of our government, accepted help from the USA. There is an argument to be made against these bonuses, as well as the appointing of investment bankers like Bob Diamond to head up retail banks, as much as anything for the sort of behaviour they will likely encourage in the future.

[Happ Hazzard]

You might as well say that no UK business should be allowed to pay bonuses because they all benefitted from the banks being bailed out. For that matter, every business in the world probably benefitted indirectly in some way.

 

Why can't we just allow private businesses to pay what they want to who they want? They almost certainly will do anyway, so why the hell are people moaning about it? The point of being a private business is you are free not to do business with them if you do not like how they run things. If more people actually put their money where their mouth is, maybe the country would be a better place to live?

[Kenny McBride]

This, pretty much. It amazes me that none of the major banks seem to have thought about the PR, though. Imagine what it would do for their public image if one of the banks said "OK, no bonuses over x amount this year. Instead, we're going to make all that money available as zero-interest loans to the best 100/1000/whatever new business plans we receive over the next few months."

Banks are businesses. Do you not think they give loans to the best new business plans they recieve anyway?

 

Well, in case you haven't noticed, business lending has seized up dramatically over the last couple of years due to everyone in the industry becoming pathologically risk-averse. Starting a business in a recession automatically makes you higher risk. Banks are currently extremely risk-averse and most have reduced lending capital available due to increased liquidity requirements. It's very, very difficult even for existing businesses with decent credit histories to get loans right now. Start-ups (which, we are told, are going to save our economy) are in an even more difficult position, as the risk is that much harder to assess for an unproven commodity.

 

It probably wouldn't be so good when all their executives quit en masse and left them in a total mess though.

 

Yeah, that's the bit that sucks the most. I don't know - maybe they could defer all those bonuses over the next couple of years or take them as share options not redeemable for another year or two. I think it'd be a good idea one way or another to encourage the investment arms of these banks to take a longer-term view than just "how much profit can we make today?"

 

And Bashar is right in a way. Every bank is benefitting in some way from the last government's largesse. The structures put in place to protect against "toxic debt" and all that jazz helped everyone clear a lot of skeletons from their closets with very little downside.

[Carbomb]

Why can't we just allow private businesses to pay what they want to who they want? They almost certainly will do anyway, so why the hell are people moaning about it? The point of being a private business is you are free not to do business with them if you do not like how they run things. If more people actually put their money where their mouth is, maybe the country would be a better place to live?

 

Sorry, which private businesses are you referring to? RBS?