General politics discussion thread

[big mickey]

10 years382 fallen

[Kiffy]

Last time the subject was brought up you seemed to think it was due to a need to wage war on al qaida. Have you changed your view?

[big mickey]

Not really, we had to show a strong front against them, even though after about 6 months it was clear going into Afghanistan was a toral waste of time.The fact it's dragged on this fucking long is a joke.

[David]

Not really, we had to show a strong front against them, even though after about 6 months it was clear going into Afghanistan was a toral waste of time.

It was clear after six months that we weren't going to "win" you mean.

[Chest Rockwell]

10 years382 fallen

[big mickey]

Not really, we had to show a strong front against them, even though after about 6 months it was clear going into Afghanistan was a toral waste of time.

It was clear after six months that we weren't going to "win" you mean.

That's the thing, win what exactly???It was a failure from day 1

[Kiffy]

So, hold on a sec, you're saying turning up to get at muslims as a whole to try and deal with extremism is futile and pointless exercise? And it's clear after a few months you should move on and do something else? Well I rather agree. One can't help but feel it's relevant somewhere else, but who knows where eh?On the topic of afghanistan, some very good stuff's happened there, more hospitals, more education, education for women, democracy (largely considered to be hugely corrupt, granted, but then those in glass houses, etc etc) the removal of the taliban from power, meaning al qaida have one less base of operations, the fact blokes are now legally allowed to shave.I think there's some major success stories in afghanistan, personally.

[big mickey]

Well, yes and no, we went in very hard and had the Taliban out in a month or so, then should have came a tatical Taliban elimination, defence & restructuring of Afghanistan.It didn't work that way, we should have fucking buried them in Tora Bora as it was clear that either that happened or Bin Laden was out of Afghanistan into Pakistan (which was correct obviously) so a 6 month at most war hyas turned into this debacle. And for what it's worth the positive spin of the new free Afghanistan isn't all that correct, most Afghans didn't want to be ruled under the Taliban, but they were not/are not happy about us being there & like Iraq we've plunged a country into a dangerous battleground.Taking the Taliban out of power was a step in the right direction but as long as they have dedicated fighters Afghanistan will be a dangerous place for a long time.

Edited October 9, 2011 by big mickey

[Kiffy]

Oh I know, I'm not suggesting there's not alot of problems, there obviously are. But I do think, now and long term, it's better for the afghany people, and worse for al qaida. So to suggest it's a failure with no point is kinda ignorant.

[David]

The issue I had with the situation was the fact that we decided that Afghanistan was no longer to be run as it was. Who the fuck are we to decide these things?

 

It's this kind of arrogance that leads many to say that on those occasions that we are attacked, we reap what we sow pretty much.

[The King Of Swing]

Last I heard the new "Government" over there either made it legal or were doing their best to make it legal for a man to rape his wife.The fact that the West supports a Government that obviously stole an election makes a mockery of our Governments so called support of Democracy in the region.

[Kiffy]

It was legal to rape your wife over here until about 20 years ago, or to put it more accurately, rape within marriage was not recognised as consent's been given when she married you.Bit medieval and rubbish of course, but then it's going to be a bit backward for awhile. However having said that, the fact women now have the right to education, and the amount of extra schools over there in general is a massive step forward. The reduction in child mortality rates is a massive step forward. I take the point in regards to the arrogance of the thing, but it's not like we took over country ruled by a government the people wanted, the taliban took and kept power by force, we removed it from them by force, and gave the people there a say in the running and rules of their own country (even if it's horrendously corrupt)I actually think there's alot of postives there.

Edited October 9, 2011 by Kiffy

[David]

I take the point in regards to the arrogance of the thing, but it's not like we took over country ruled by a government the people wanted, the taliban took and kept power by force, we removed it from them by force, and gave the people there a say in the running and rules of their own country (even if it's horrendously corrupt)

That may be true, but how do we actually know that? Was there any actual evidence that the majority in Afghanistan were wanting to be saved by the good old red, white & blue and given the awesome gift of capitalist democracy?Make no mistake, what we did was open channels for western Governments & big business to make more money. Any benefits that the Afghan people happened to get were entirely coincidental.

[The King Of Swing]

and gave the people there a say in the running and rules of their own country

Except they have no say as I pointed out the elections over there was obviously stolen and UN basically accpeted that fact and just decided it was better (less hassle) to support the new rulers.

[Kiffy]

I take the point in regards to the arrogance of the thing, but it's not like we took over country ruled by a government the people wanted, the taliban took and kept power by force, we removed it from them by force, and gave the people there a say in the running and rules of their own country (even if it's horrendously corrupt)

That may be true, but how do we actually know that? Was there any actual evidence that the majority in Afghanistan were wanting to be saved by the good old red, white & blue and given the awesome gift of capitalist democracy?Make no mistake, what we did was open channels for western Governments & big business to make more money. Any benefits that the Afghan people happened to get were entirely coincidental.

Oh of course it is, I'm not naive enough to think otherwise, plenty of equally foul regimes we should change but don't bother cos there's nothing in it for us, that doesn't take away the good stuff that's happened though.As far as how we know they didn't want the taliban? Well they'd have voted them, or an equally hardline muslim group in if they wanted to. They didn't, they don't. Not that this means they wanted the west to do it of course, but that they wanted to be ruled by someone other than the taliban seems clear.

and gave the people there a say in the running and rules of their own country

Except they have no say as I pointed out the elections over there was obviously stolen and UN basically accpeted that fact and just decided it was better (less hassle) to support the new rulers.

Well I guess they figured it was no worse than the tories being in charge of england when the vast majority didn't want them!To be a bit more serious though, you're right, it's a bit shit really.