The UKFF Comics n Graphic Novels thread

[alexander]

Yeah, both very cool, but both seen about quite a lot. I'm pretty sure I was the first person in the world to get a Grinder tattoo...

 

...which is a good time to tell people to read Doktor Sleepless, if you've never got round to it.

[Deaq]

The Boys is a book that is total brain dead violence and over the top stupidness, something I really like

 

Could somebody pick out some good jump on points of stand alone graphic novels for Green Lantern or any other good DC hero's apart from Batman and Superman.

 

Seem to have stopped buying as many Gn's in the last few months Marvel just seems really crap after the Skrull invasion storyline which was pants. And Batman with killing off Wayne only to bring him back seems pointless.

 

Apart from the Judge Dredd case files I have not picked anything new up in ages any recommendations? I read anything with Spider-man, DareDevil, Hulk, X-23, Punisher, Batman, AVP, TMNT Savage Dragon, and Dredd in it.

[spotlightmagnet1]

Stand alone stuff, I would suggest the Denny O Neal Green Lantern and Green Arrow stuff from the 70s. Ther are collections in Comic shops and I really enjoy them. Green Lantern Rebirth is pretty good but I'm not sure how stand alone it is, but everything gets explained in the book.

 

Also Green Arrow Longbow Hunters was after the character was tweaked so it's pretty self contained.

 

Any of the Punisher stuff written by Garth Ennis is good. The Max stuff you might want to read in order, but if you want to laugh pick up Welcome Back Frank, Army of One and Business As Usual. Spiderman I just read Noir and thought it was an interesting read. I'm not sure how well it goes down if avid Spidey fans but I sure like it. Hope that helps a bit.

[CoreyVandal]

Seem to have stopped buying as many Gn's in the last few months Marvel just seems really crap after the Skrull invasion storyline which was pants.

 

Totally agree man. Almost everything they've put out post-Secret Invasion has seemed crap. The writing has an almost 80's feel to it, and a couple of people seem to be bringing back the old style 'thought bubbles', which I thought had died out years ago. This so called 'Heroic Age' smacks of 'PG Era WWE' in my eyes, and after the thought provoking, politically influenced stories they'd been throwing out there ever since Avengers Disassembled it's really disappointing.

 

Saying that I did enjoy the One Moment In Time story in ASM, but probably since me and my ex had a very similar talk the week it came out, and IMO she's started looking exactly the same as the way they drew MJ in those scenes, to the point where it actually freaked me out when I opened the comic. I know some spidey fans that hated it so maybe it wasn't that good, but it really hit home for me.

 

On the plus side it's pushing me back towards Vertigo, which I've somehow stopped following over the past couple of years.

[GalaxyV.2]

Agree with what spotlightmagnet1 said about Punisher Max. Ennis is soley responsible for getting me back into comics.

[alexander]

Oh man, you guys are missing out on so much good Marvel Superhero stuff right now. Although if you think things like Avengers Disassembled, Civil War and One More Day is what superhero comics should be like...Well, I can't say I agree, is all.

 

Great Marvel stuff lately -

 

The cosmic books - Nova and Guardians Of The Galaxy are both awesome ongoings from recent times, and if you like big crossovers, then Annihilation, Conquest, War Of Kings and (the still ongoing) Thanos Imperative have been awesome widescreen comics.

 

Incredible Hercules, and the Prince Of Power mini that followed it up, is just straight up fun comics. Hilarious and touching, brilliantly drawn and exciting to read.

 

Bru's Captain America is always great. Daredevil has been really good for ages now.

 

Fantastic Four and S.H.I.E.L.D. by Hickman are insane and wonderful books.

 

Thunderbolts is brilliant at the moment. If you didn't read Jason Aaron on Ghost Rider it's totally great and well worth a look.

 

Invincible Iron Man by Matt Fraction has been out of this world since it started, totally rehabilitating Stark as a character after Mark Millar fucked him up royally during Civil War.

 

(Agents Of) Atlas never kept going for very long, but was sublime superheroics. Likewise, Cornell's Captain Britain and MI13 that spun out of Secret Invasion was amazing and far too short lived.

 

And loads more. Marvel is beating DC hands down right now. Mainly because they've got their head around the fact that people want to read superhero books that are fun. The Marvel Adventures comics (oh noes, kids books...) is a brilliant range. And trying to get away from "gritty" (for which you should really read "adolescent") stories in favour of this stuff is the best decision Marvel have made in ages.

[Chris B]

SWORD is one to keep an eye out for as well, when it comes to Trade Paperback status.

 

I disagree about Millar fucking up Tony Stark - I loved that run.

 

However, Marvel's last crossover, Siege, was fucking epic. Started out like it wasn't going to be anything great, and then got REALLY good towards the end.

[alexander]

I like Stark as a lovable douchebag. I couldn't care less about reading about a war profiteer Tony Stark who puts his friends in prison camps. Just like I don't care about "couldn't give a shit about his family" Reed Richards or "more than happy to work with Supervillains and murderers" Captain America or any other of the depressingly out of character heroes from Civil War. This puts me in a minority of a minority and I have long ago accepted it.

 

Yeah SWORD was awesome and again, incredibly sad that it got cancelled so that Marvel could publish eight more books about Wolverine a month. Probably.

 

Siege had its moments. Took far too long to tell, as is usual with these Bendis big events. And the end of Loki's arc made little sense (also, fuck off with the magic stones that do fuck all then stop doing that and what the hell does that do to amplify Luke Cage's powers anyway? Make him more bulletproof? Pshah) plus it had loads of The Sentry in and seriously, no one cares about The Sentry. The Gillen/McKelvie Siege: Loki one-shot was the best thing by a country mile to come out of that crossover.

[Chris B]

I like Stark as a lovable douchebag. I couldn't care less about reading about a war profiteer Tony Stark who puts his friends in prison camps. Just like I don't care about "couldn't give a shit about his family" Reed Richards or "more than happy to work with Supervillains and murderers" Captain America or any other of the depressingly out of character heroes from Civil War. This puts me in a minority of a minority and I have long ago accepted it.

 

Whereas I liked all of those takes, because all of them were doing it because they believed they were right, and that it was important. Stark finally faced up to his responsibilities, and I adored that.

 

Siege had its moments. Took far too long to tell, as is usual with these Bendis big events. And the end of Loki's arc made little sense (also, fuck off with the magic stones that do fuck all then stop doing that and what the hell does that do to amplify Luke Cage's powers anyway? Make him more bulletproof? Pshah) plus it had loads of The Sentry in and seriously, no one cares about The Sentry. The Gillen/McKelvie Siege: Loki one-shot was the best thing by a country mile to come out of that crossover.

 

See, I'm the one guy that REALLY liked The Sentry, especially once Bendis started writing him. That switch in focus in Siege was, for me, jawdropping. And worth the entire thing - it's one of my favourite moments in comics in years.

[spotlightmagnet1]

Thunderbolts is brilliant at the moment. If you didn't read Jason Aaron on Ghost Rider it's totally great and well worth a look.

 

Did Jason Aaron write some Wolverine stuff recently? Sorry I can't find the book right now but I'm sure someone called Aaron wrote 'Adamantium Men' which was one of the best Wolverine books I've read in a while. Simple story but told very well.

[alexander]

I like Stark as a lovable douchebag. I couldn't care less about reading about a war profiteer Tony Stark who puts his friends in prison camps. Just like I don't care about "couldn't give a shit about his family" Reed Richards or "more than happy to work with Supervillains and murderers" Captain America or any other of the depressingly out of character heroes from Civil War. This puts me in a minority of a minority and I have long ago accepted it.

 

Whereas I liked all of those takes, because all of them were doing it because they believed they were right, and that it was important. Stark finally faced up to his responsibilities, and I adored that.

 

Siege had its moments. Took far too long to tell, as is usual with these Bendis big events. And the end of Loki's arc made little sense (also, fuck off with the magic stones that do fuck all then stop doing that and what the hell does that do to amplify Luke Cage's powers anyway? Make him more bulletproof? Pshah) plus it had loads of The Sentry in and seriously, no one cares about The Sentry. The Gillen/McKelvie Siege: Loki one-shot was the best thing by a country mile to come out of that crossover.

 

See, I'm the one guy that REALLY liked The Sentry, especially once Bendis started writing him. That switch in focus in Siege was, for me, jawdropping. And worth the entire thing - it's one of my favourite moments in comics in years.

I can't buy that. Cap, Reed and Stark have spent their entire lives doing difficult things because they believed they were important. Without losing the basis of why anyone liked those characters in the first place whilst doing it. Seriously, if you were describing what defined the Reed Richards character to someone, one of the most important things you'd say would be "loves his family quite a bit" - a Reed Richards that's too busy building a murderous clone of one of his friends so it put some of his other friends into a concentration camp because MATH MADE HIM DO IT to notice his wife is leaving him is not only zero fun to read about, it's just not Reed Richards. Same thing applies to a Captain America who's lost his moral centre, or a Tony Stark who's making a fortune off a war he helped start. Those aren't just bad versions of characters I like, they're unrecognisable. But hey, explosions and body count.

 

Outside of the original Sentry mini, which was alright, and the Age Of The Sentry mini, which was awesome and had nothing to do with the character, really, Sentry has to be the most worthless invention in the modern age. "WHat would it be like if Superman was all mad and stuff and nothing like Superman?!" Well, the answer is clearly no-one would give a shit.

 

Thunderbolts is brilliant at the moment. If you didn't read Jason Aaron on Ghost Rider it's totally great and well worth a look.

 

Did Jason Aaron write some Wolverine stuff recently? Sorry I can't find the book right now but I'm sure someone called Aaron wrote 'Adamantium Men' which was one of the best Wolverine books I've read in a while. Simple story but told very well.

Yeah, not sure about that specific story but he's written a bunch of Wolverine stuff since 2007 that I haven't read. He's also writing Scalped for Vertigo. And if you're not reading Scalped - read Scalped.

Edited September 13, 2010 by alexander

[Chris B]

I like Stark as a lovable douchebag. I couldn't care less about reading about a war profiteer Tony Stark who puts his friends in prison camps. Just like I don't care about "couldn't give a shit about his family" Reed Richards or "more than happy to work with Supervillains and murderers" Captain America or any other of the depressingly out of character heroes from Civil War. This puts me in a minority of a minority and I have long ago accepted it.

 

Whereas I liked all of those takes, because all of them were doing it because they believed they were right, and that it was important. Stark finally faced up to his responsibilities, and I adored that.

 

Siege had its moments. Took far too long to tell, as is usual with these Bendis big events. And the end of Loki's arc made little sense (also, fuck off with the magic stones that do fuck all then stop doing that and what the hell does that do to amplify Luke Cage's powers anyway? Make him more bulletproof? Pshah) plus it had loads of The Sentry in and seriously, no one cares about The Sentry. The Gillen/McKelvie Siege: Loki one-shot was the best thing by a country mile to come out of that crossover.

 

See, I'm the one guy that REALLY liked The Sentry, especially once Bendis started writing him. That switch in focus in Siege was, for me, jawdropping. And worth the entire thing - it's one of my favourite moments in comics in years.

I can't buy that. Cap, Reed and Stark have spent their entire lives doing difficult things because they believed they were important. Without losing the basis of why anyone liked those characters in the first place whilst doing it. Seriously, if you were describing what defined the Reed Richards character to someone, one of the most important things you'd say would be "loves his family quite a bit" - a Reed Richards that's too busy building a murderous clone of one of his friends so it put some of his other friends into a concentration camp because MATH MADE HIM DO IT to notice his wife is leaving him is not only zero fun to read about, it's just not Reed Richards. Same thing applies to a Captain America who's lost his moral centre, or a Tony Stark who's making a fortune off a war he helped start. Those aren't just bad versions of characters I like, they're unrecognisable. But hey, explosions and body count.

 

My point was hardly 'explosions and body count'.

 

What I liked about it was that the Superhuman Registration Act covered both sides of the argument. Cap was willing to put a lot of what he believes in aside because of how wrong he believes this is - and indeed, regains his moral compass by the end. Stark and Reed have been working so hard on this act, because they absolutely believe it has to happen. Of all the things he could have missed, it just didn't occur to Reed that Sue would have such a problem with what he was doing. I liked the fact that both of them were so blind to what they were doing. I liked the fact that everybody involved got it wrong, and I liked how it pointed out just how flawed these heroes were. I'm far more interested in heroes who screw up than heroes who get it right.

 

Whether you agree or not, to write it off as 'explosions and body count' is fatuous.

 

Outside of the original Sentry mini, which was alright, and the Age Of The Sentry mini, which was awesome and had nothing to do with the character, really, Sentry has to be the most worthless invention in the modern age. "WHat would it be like if Superman was all mad and stuff and nothing like Superman?!" Well, the answer is clearly no-one would give a shit.

 

The original Sentry mini was all about the marketing, which was genius. After that, I didn't massively care about The Sentry until he started totally losing his identity. I started liking him during Bendis' run, and loved his interactions with Osborne.

Edited September 13, 2010 by Chris B

[alexander]

I'm not asking for heroes to be perfect. Just heroic would be fine. But why would you want to read a superhero book where everyone's wrong, everyone loses and there's no hope? The whole point of superheroes is to provide hope and inspiration, isn't it? As well as punch each other through walls, of course, I do like those bits too.

 

And it's not so much that they were doing incredibly questionable things, it's that they were so out of character while doing it (seriously, the sloppy writing was all over this book - Richards was anti-reg in his own book a couple of weeks before the crossover started! Why in the name of all that's holy would BISHOP for fuck's sake be in favour of the act! Tony Stark has done so much to hide his identity over the years in extreme ways it's not even funny!)

 

I think one of the biggest problems with Civil War was that it didn't show both sides of the argument, as was promised. Almost straight away the Pro-reg guys were clearly the villains - Evil Clone Thor, putting fellow heroes in huge amounts of danger by imprisoning them in the Negative Zone, siding with irredeemable mass murderers like Bullseye...

 

And the ending was such nonsense - Cap gives up because the Village People tackle him and he realises they've set fire to a building in New York, which of course never happens in a Marvel comic? Nonsensical. And who the hell wants to read a comic about Captain America giving up?! I mean come on.

[Chris B]

Cheers for the feedback in the thread, chaps. Latest podcast is up now, with us looking at V for Vendetta, recent graphic novels, and Alan Moore craziness. We've discussed feedback in this thread, so any more is always welcome.

 

Next one up will be Warren Ellis' Fell. If you've read it, give your thoughts on it, and we'll discuss them in the podcast. If you haven't picked it up yet, you can pick it up for under nine quid from Forbidden Planet, or under seven quid from Amazon.

[alexander]

Or you can steal it for freeeeee...which of course you shouldn't do.

 

Fell is a more interesting topic to discuss, in my opinion, because as well as being a fantastic story with knock-out art from Ben Templesmith (who really deserves equal billing with Ellis) it also had something to say aout the medium. Namely, that comics are too expensive for the majority of people to buy on a whim. The industry is more in danger of dissapearing up its own arse every year - despite a number of huge comic book movies, sales of comics themselves haven't picked up (August was the worst month for comics sales in years, in fact) There's a lot of reasons for that - the way comics are marketed and sold, the tendancy for big two books to be punishing on people with no knowledge of continuity...But cost plays its part as well.

When Ellis wrote Fell, he said (pauses to leaf through an issue) that if you want to buy a superhero comic, you're going to pay $2.25 at least, and you'll pay $2.99 for most indy books. So he wrote Fell as an experiment in retro-invention; a shorter, cheaper book, with a self contained, dense story that you can read with no prior knowledge of it. And it was brilliant.

Of course, we haven't had an issue of Fell in years (although Ellis maintains it's an ongoing concern) and now, increasingly, superhero books are $3.99! So, sucks to be you, Warren. And us as readers, of course.

But, that doesn't change that we got nine very good issues of comics out of it. Not just brilliant art, but inventive art, typical Ellis writing - by turns visceral and hilarious. Stuff that really stays with you, and not always in a good way. It's a massive achievement, and a real shame it didn't come out more often. Well worth anyone's time.