Official ROH Discussion Thread

[edgecrusher]

but I found them spectacularly uninspiring on their one match with Pearce/Whitmer.

They were against Pearce and Whitmer though, two of the least charismatic wrestlers I've ever seen.

LL addresses the rest, but in what way does the quality of the opposition affect the fact that the KOW's tandem moves are so contrived that even me, eternal defender of the Canadian Destroyer, found them annoying?You don't need charismatic opponents to look good on offence. Look at the Briscoes. Love 'em or hate 'em, no matter the quality of their opposition their arsenal looks devastating. I just couldn't see anything to recommend the Kings from that match, not in a 'bastard heels' way, in a 'fuck I'd hate to watch another match involving these guys' way. True Lol that Jimmy Rave even got toilet showered in Japan. I guess CIMA must have found that entrance hilarious and insured it was propogated in DG.

[HBAndy]

Some great reviews, LL and Edgecrusher.I was browsing through a few websites and came across ROH's First Anniversary Show, I haven't seen it before but I was thinking of picking it up. Was it any good?

It was a really good show if you like early ROH which is littered with pomposity, Ki vs. London vs. Styles is great fun, Joe vs. AmDrag is never a bad thing, Mark vs. Jay is fun and Homicide vs. Corino was a decent brawl as well. It's a good early show.

[alexander]

Mark Briscoe Vs Jay Briscoe from this card may be my least favourite wrestling match ever.

[WU LYF 4 LYF]

ROH Ring Of Homicide 13/05/2006

 

Colt Cabana v Kikitaro

 

As you would expect this is mostly comedy, and it's mostly successful in its quest to amuse. To be honest it's just a relief to have relaxed cabana back- he's more comfortable in the role, and he's a whole lot better at it. You can only see Kikitaru's comedy spots a certain number of times though, before they start to get dull, and at the moment I'm pretty worn out on the guy. Here, luckily enough, they manage to incorporate enough fresh stuff and with enough style on the execution to make it worthwhile. Not much to say really, entertaining opener. *3/4

 

Homicide/Ricky Reyes v Dunn/Marcos

 

Basically the only chance this match had of success was if it was a full on squash. Bumping is about all Dunn and Marcos are good for, so I'm guessing it would have been great fun to watch the Rottweiler's destroy them. Unfortunately, I'll never know, as this is actually a plain and forgettable bout, where the despicable Ring Crew Express actually get a pretty good amount of offence in. Seriously guys, it al looks terrible, and I completely don't buy them going toe to toe with Homicide, however well he sells their attack. Reyes is where he usually is, just sort of there, but not actually doing a great deal to impress. Dunn and Marcos shouldn't last much longer, and their opponents shouldn't be wasted on matches like this. 1/2*

 

Jimmy Rave v Jimmy Yang

 

It's credit to Jimmy Rave that he managed to take Akio to one of his best matches in his ROH run. That really isn't saying a lot though, as Akio has been pretty dreadful, and in fact this match is helped by the overbooked nature along with the heat the Embassy generates. The quickly established that Rave didn't want to go one on one with Yang, and built the early stages of the match around that. The finish kept both guys looking strong, and the match as a whole was well put together. Yang's bumping and selling are his strong point, so Rave's attack on him is pretty good- Rave's heeling also never gets old, even with the average Yang as his foil. Finish was nicely done, and the interference from Haze was probably the highlight of the entire match. Back to WWE for Yang- to be honest, good riddance. *3/4

 

ROH Pure Title Nigel McGuinness© v Jay Lethal

 

In theory this looks pretty good. You have the hometown hero Lethal as the white meat babyface, a role in which he has excelled in before. The you have Nigel, one of the best heels in the world. And in practise, this is pretty good, though nothing more. It was hard for them to produce something really good, with a lack of any past history and no storyline to build from. But they used what story they had, and it worked well. Nigel was great as the sly heel, who knew the rules better than anyone else. Lethal was good as the local face making his return. It would have been nicer if the fans were all for Lethal, but instead we got the dreaded duelling chants. You can't win them all.

 

The offence was nothing out of the ordinary, but it did the job, and it was actually one of the better builds I've seen, which culminated in some nice and believable near falls, especially on the first Tower Of London. The opening goes a long way to making the match enjoyable; instead of starting with the British matwork which would have felt really out of place, they spend time establishing roles and even throw in a few tit-for-tat revenge spots. 14 Minutes was more than enough for this match, but they made good use of it and it didn't really drag. Could have done with a bit more heeling from Nigel, a bit more charisma from Lethal and a bit more heat from the crowd. It kind of lacked the 'it' factor, but it still wound up being a nice midcard bout. **1/2

 

ROH World Heavyweight Championship Bryan Danielson© v Delirious

 

I enjoyed their match at the 100th Show, and I enjoyed this even more. Dragon put on another one of his heel displays, and was actually rather mint working over Delirious here. This was Delirious' match to make though, and he put on an excellent performance as the underdog face who is driven by revenge and his quest for the gold. A little more hate wouldn't have gone amiss, especially as it started out so heated, with the vicious brawling and the attack before the bell as a throwback to their previous match. I felt they lost some of early momentum when Dragon went to the floor though, especially as when he got back in they started to wrestle, when they were supposed to hate each other. It isn't that the wrestling was bad, just given the past storyline and how it started out, a bit more violent brawling would have likely gone down better.

 

Dragon's altercations with the CZW fans were funny, and actually did a good job of giving Delirious openings, and making his comebacks a little more believable. That was a major issue here though- it was hard to buy Delirious as any sort of legitimate threat to Dragon, takinh their past records into account. The match also overstayed its welcome- ROH have to learn that every title match and every mid card match doesn't have to go long to be good. They could have taken 5 or maybe even 10 minutes of this and it wouldn't have affected what they were trying to do or the story they were trying to tell. It didn't feel that long., but by the time we got to the finish, I'd lost a lot of the interest I'd got from the build. But make no mistake, this is good stuff. It's a good example of the underdog challenger v cocky champion story working well and getting the crowd into a frenzy, but there has to be some sort of hierarchy ROH, because a guy like Delirious shouldn't be lasting 25 minutes with your unstoppable champion. ***

 

Matt Sydal v Christopher Daniels

 

It wasn't as bad as it could have been. This had the potential to be really horrible, and while they escape that, it's still really average. Daniels is Daniels, and if you've seen him before you've probably realised his matches look like something you'd be more likely to see at the Royal Balley Company. Emotionless, effortless and far too perfect. Buy I'm quickly doing another U-Turn on Sydal. I loved him at first, then I didn't like him much, but now, he's back in my good books. His great looking offence and superb facials and selling are what keep this match alive. His character work is also very good here, as his portrayal of the desperate guy trying to get his breakthrough win is actually very believable. A couple of the intricate spots get my attention, and though I don't care for anything Daniels does, Sydal makes this at least watchable. Don't expect anything good though as it's by the numbers stuff mostly. *3/4

 

ROH Tag Team Championship Austin Aries/Roderick Strong© v Jay Briscoe/Mark Briscoe

 

As with the world title match this was just too long. For the first 5 or 10 minutes of this match it's totally uninspiring stuff. It lacks structure and direction, there's no reason for much if any of the offence- in short, it looks like they're killing time. Which is a shame, because one the Briscoe's start working over Aries, who is a great face in peril, the match picks up dramatically. Whatever else you say about the Briscoe's, their tag psychology has been pretty great in the recent matches I've seen, and this is no exception. There's a good number of tag teases, great heel tag offence, and they cut off the ring like they're Arn and Tully. Don't get me wrong, it isn't anything I've not seen before, but in this day and age, solid tag team wrestling is something you don't see that often.

 

Once the match breaks down and they decide to throw the legal man rules out the window, it's also good. They bring a nice number of spots to the table, without it looking like overkill, and Strong is a ton of fun as the hot tag, given his high impact offence. In fact, tags are the best use of most of these guys, because, aside from Aries, they have little charisma but can work a good bout. The Briscoe's are so much better when they're not using high end offence for the duration of their matches. Aries is the real star once again though here, his offence could do with being a bit less generic, but he has improves in leaps and bounds, and even has somewhat of an aura round him now. First 10 minutes drag this down, but otherwise it's a really solid piece of tag action. **1/2

 

Samoa Joe v Necro Butcher

 

Not much of a match really, but what they do fit in is actually more fun then nearly everything else on the entire show. Both guys are insanely over and actually give the impression of being two stars, something guys like Yang and Whitmer could never achieve. The brawling is solid, and though it pales in comparison the the next match, it's enjoyable while it lasts. I just wish the CZW guys had been booked a little stronger, as Joe is booked as being stronger than both Necro and hero together, and unless they're at a numbers handicap the ROH guys nearly always seem to have the advantage in the brawls. **

 

Homicide v Necro Butcher

 

Just an awesome brawl and a load of fun. The Homicide face turn was executed to perfection, and it brought an insane pop which transcended into brilliant heat for this match. The brawling was really tight throughout, and felt believable and vicious. Some of it was a bit too repetitive, not within this match but within the entire brawls on the shows- there's only so many times I can gasp at a chair being thrown at someone's head or a suplex on a chair, as I seem to witness them every other show if not more. But that isn't there fault as much, and while the brawl isn't as intense in the middle stages, it would be a big ask for them to keep up the electric pace and action for the full 10 minutes.

 

The chair throwing and what follows is what makes the match, and the numerous moves performed on the chair filled ring are brutal and effective. Necro doesn't really sell being buried under chairs that well, as he's back on the offence a minute later, but I guess you could put it down to his character. As a match it's good, but as a spectacle it's superb, and if you're a fan of sick bumps and hate filled brawls, this is probably for you. ***1/4

 

Overall I felt the show was very solid. Only one really 'bad' match, the rest of it was either in and around average or better. No top class match, but the world title match and the main event are both a blast.

[HBAndy]

Lovely review of the show...when I watched it I basically watched the first couple of average ROH matches and then skipped to the brilliant main-event.I loved Homicide's work in the match and Necro showed once again that he's one indy wrestler who can actually evoke a reaction from a crowd, and combined with Homicide's turn it made for a very well worked match. My favourite part of the ROH/CZW feud so far, I preffered it to the 6man brawl at the 100th show.

[alexander]

ROH

[edgecrusher]

Here’s a question – if you reviewed this and gave it a star rating, did you still feel like a human being afterwards? Discuss.

Yes. Next?Speaking about the rabid Daniels hate, surely you realise that he works a certain style of wrestling that is very popular with a section of ROH's fanbase? That's why he's booked so much. And why do you rag on him constantly for working a body part? It IS psychology. That's wrestling psychology 101. Isn't that better than simply hitting random move after random move? Edited August 28, 2006 by edgecrusher

[WU LYF 4 LYF]

Enjoyed your review LL, agree with a lot of the stuff, but I thought you underrated the Sydal/Daniels match, which wasn't that bad.

Speaking about the rabid Daniels hate, surely you realise that he works a certain style of wrestling that is very popular with a section of ROH's fanbase?

Well, yes, he seems to be over. But that doesn't make me enjoy his matches anymore.

And why do you rag on him constantly for working a body part? It IS psychology. That's wrestling psychology 101.

Well, personally, I don't have a problem with the idea of him working a body part, it's just the reason he does it, and the way he does it. He seems to be working the back not to set up anything in particular, but to appeal to the 'smarter' fans. Plus, he is so emotionless and uninspiring while doing it that it just comes acorss as him going through the motions. It bores me to tears.Good body part psychology is Jimmy Rave worker over the ribs of Sydal at Final Showdown, to set up for the Rave clash, and doing it with aggression and focus.

Isn't that better than simply hitting random move after random move?

Depends on the situation.

[alexander]

Here

[gadge]

Nice long review of Ring of Homicide there Lantern. I finished the show yesterday and agree with pretty much everything, and with 4 DVDs to watch I can't be arsed to write up a superlong review. One thing I will say - I understand Daniels vs Sydal isn't your type of thing. However, I pretty much enjoyed Sydal getting really close to the victory then dropping to a Last Rites out of nowhere at 'Weekend of Champions night 2'. The match here sucks in comparison, but the finish made me crack up to a degree it was worth it for that alone. Sydal had jumped Daniels after the handshake and tried "aggression" as his tactic to try and get that elusive win, then fell to a rollup when trying Daniels own move, the Angels Wings. I don't remember the last time I sat up and went "hah, you so suck" at a face failing to win. Classic.

[edgecrusher]

Here’s a question – if you reviewed this and gave it a star rating, did you still feel like a human being afterwards? Discuss.

Yes. Next?

What did you give The Parrot Sketch?

Speaking about the rabid Daniels hate, surely you realise that he works a certain style of wrestling that is very popular with a section of ROH's fanbase?

Lex Luger's style of wrestling was very popular with WCW's fanbase and I never liked him either.

And why do you rag on him constantly for working a body part? It IS psychology. That's wrestling psychology 101.

Psychology is something that is used in wrestling matches to make people care about them. It is not the point of a wrestling match.

1. *****, of course. :D2. Misnomer. Nobody EVER like Lex Luger's wrestling. They just liked HIM. There's a big difference.3. But that's why he uses it. To make people care more about his matches. The fact that he's so much more over than AJ Styles suggests that it works, too. Edited August 30, 2006 by edgecrusher

[alexander]

Well, it does nothing for me. There's nothing wrong with gpoing after a body part in a wrestling match, it's just don't in such a souless, meaningless way. The difference is this. Daniel's works on Matt Sydal's legs because it's good psychology to work on a high flyers legs and good psychology gets over in today's Indy wrestling. Misawa worked over Kawada's legs because he knew if he didn't he'd get kicked in the face a lot.It's the difference in emotional realism between the two - Daniels can't convince me he's doing anything other than performing an exhibition of psychology. Whereas I just know that Misawa really doesn't want to get kicked in the face.Another way of putting it is, if it's great psychology you wont even notice it as such at the time.

[Guest GDM]

Where's the best(cheapest) place to buy official ROH dvd's. In particular for someone dealing/converting from

[edgecrusher]

As far as I know rohwrestling.com is the only place to get official ROH DVDs. You can probably get the occasional one on ebay, too.@LL: I don't quite feel it the same way, but yeah, that's a good example. But the way you attack him for it is disproportionate. It's like he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. AT LEAST HE'S TRYING. You make it seem like he's committing some terrible crime in trying to work a wrestling match in a sensible manner, but if he DIDN'T work a body part you'd hammer him for that, too. He at least works reliably, which is more than can be said for some members of the ROH roster.Daniels' biggest problem is that his character's really pretty vague, in my eyes. He's a decent promo (big plus in ROH's near-promo-less world), but he's not really got much to say most of the time.

[alexander]

Nah, I wouldn’t hammer anyone for not using body part based psychology. People obsessing over it and how it’s sold is a wrestling fan pet peeve of mine, in fact.I don’t believe that there’s a magical formula out there, where you can add up things like build, selling, control segments etc. and the end result is how good a match is. Wrestling is such a diverse and peculiar thing that I think it’s impossible to quantify it as if it were a science. For me, wrestling is doing it’s job when it’s provoking an emotional response in me. That requires people who can make me suspend my disbelief in the idea of two guys pretending to have a fight. Over the years, people have managed to do that in all sorts of ways, yes, some by clever story telling in the ring; “Aha! He’s weakened the Lariat arm!” and that’s all good. But it’s not the only way to get me to care.Wrestlers like Daniels just can’t make me feel like that. Regardless of how well he sells an injury, or how intelligently he constructs a match, he’s always a non-starter for me because he’s always just a guy playing a role in there. Everything physical he does seems too smooth and everything mental seems too forced. He’ll just never click for me, the only times he’s come close is under the mask in Michinoku Pro and New Japan. I guess I go overboard on the limb psychology thing with Daniels; but that’s because I see him as one of the worst offenders when it comes to inject fake ‘smart wrestling’ into his work in the place of real feeling.As far as the promos go, he’s solid, but I wouldn’t call him good. Again, it’s all too much of an act.