The Dragon Gate thread

[Famous Mortimer]

Rave is a generic heel - only reason, as far as I can tell, that he gets a good heel reaction from the fans is that he seems to be one of the few RoH workers who has any kind of idea at all as to what he should be doing. He's not over because he's any great shakes, he's over because everyone else is so bad. Of course, I haven't watched DG in a while, so I'm still stuck on May this year, so I'll wait until then to see if he's just as bad in Japan.Aries - you kidding me? This guy suffers from Chris Daniels Syndrome - the moment he enters the ring, he seems to forget that he has any kind of character at all, and simply resorts to doing MOVES~! To be quite frank, there are only two guys in RoH who interest me at all at the moment (and two just isn't enough), and those are American Dragon, and Jimmy Jacobs. At least they have well-defined characters which they put across in their matches, and allow their characters to direct their flow.

I think you're doing them a disservice, Carbomb, and I apologise for slightly hijacking the DG thread to discuss this. Austin Aries is one of the very best workers ROH has, and has been working a bit like the old AJPW aces used to- tailoring their style to whether they were facing heels or faces. Gen Next (as they were called) were booked differently, in that they relied on the quality of their work inside the ring to beat all-comers, didn't play as cowardly heels or brave faces but just kicked ass. The character he displays inside the ring is a bit different to the tradition, but no less effective because of it.And you're definitely doing Jimmy Rave a disservice. ROH has tried to create proper, decent heels, and has failed because they've been such good workers that the crowd has warmed to them very quickly- Homicide is the prime example of this, but there are others (Samoa Joe in the early days, Low Ki). Jimmy Rave actually understands properly how to work as a heel, and to be able to generate the crowd reaction he gets at ROH shows is no mean feat. They'll have the occasional boring indie spot-fest, but by and large ROH is the best thing happening in the USA today. JLM, others - do you reckon there's enough footage to do a decent "ROH in Dragon Gate" comp? I have everything from this year, so far.

[Carbomb]

EDIT: On another note, do you have any plans to get up to date with DG in the near future Bombcar? It'd be nice if a few people were at least on their way to being up to date by the time that show comes around at the end of next month. If you're up to May, the end of monthly ppvs means that it's just Infinity episodes and World standing between you and current affairs.

I do indeed. It's just a matter of time. Plus, I'm missing episodes between 29 and 33. At least one of those has some meat that I know I probably can't miss, and it just feels wrong to continue until I'm properly back in the flow of things. Saying that, I should probably just get on with it.

I think you're doing them a disservice, Carbomb, and I apologise for slightly hijacking the DG thread to discuss this. Austin Aries is one of the very best workers ROH has, and has been working a bit like the old AJPW aces used to- tailoring their style to whether they were facing heels or faces. Gen Next (as they were called) were booked differently, in that they relied on the quality of their work inside the ring to beat all-comers, didn't play as cowardly heels or brave faces but just kicked ass. The character he displays inside the ring is a bit different to the tradition, but no less effective because of it.And you're definitely doing Jimmy Rave a disservice. ROH has tried to create proper, decent heels, and has failed because they've been such good workers that the crowd has warmed to them very quickly- Homicide is the prime example of this, but there are others (Samoa Joe in the early days, Low Ki). Jimmy Rave actually understands properly how to work as a heel, and to be able to generate the crowd reaction he gets at ROH shows is no mean feat. They'll have the occasional boring indie spot-fest, but by and large ROH is the best thing happening in the USA today. JLM, others - do you reckon there's enough footage to do a decent "ROH in Dragon Gate" comp? I have everything from this year, so far.

If what you say about Austin Aries is true, then good for him, but he is making the classic mistake of tailoring his gimmick for the wrong audience. An RoH audience might be able to react in the same way as a classic AJPW audience, but unless they make a big deal about him being an adherent to King's Road style, an outside audience containing people like myself simply aren't going to get it. If I'd been watching Aries in some classic AJPW or perhaps even NOAH, I probably would have appreciated it. But a promotion which is infamous for spotfests is probably not the best place to display such a style. I know that you believe that they're only intermittently spotty, but from my own perspective, RoH is ridiculously spotty and lacking in some very basic psychology, and as a result, their wrestlers have to spend most of their matches killing themselves with big moves to wow the crowds in order to persuade them that this is a perfectly good alternative to classic psych. It can't last, as far as I can see.I may be doing Jimmy Rave a disservice, but judging from what I've seen, I can't see anything to change my opinion. Please don't misunderstand me, I think it's good he has a fundamental grasp of what constitutes a heel, and it will certainly help him to last longer than your regular indy darling, but I honestly feel that he's merely a good heel, as opposed to the amazing heel that the RoHbots make him out to be. If everyone else on the promotion were doing their job properly, they'd be giving him a run for his money. RoH may be having trouble creating heels, but all that says to me is that they're not really properly measuring their audience. A few times, fine, but when it's a regular occurrence, one can only conclude that RoH creative need to re-evaluate what their values in terms of what constitutes a heel or a face in the eyes of their target audience.Homicide I forgot about - I would add him to AmDrag and Jimmy Jacobs as having a properly defined character. And he is pretty decent when he's not blowing his gimmick with the wrong moveset.

[JLM]

Yes Bombcar, get on with it at once.

 

Sir Mortington:

 

Infinity

 

Infinity 45

 

2. Masato Yoshino, Naruki Doi, Naoki Tanisaki vs. Don Fujii, Jack Evans, Matt Sydal

 

Infinity 46

 

1. Naruki Doi, Masato Yoshino, B-Boy vs. CIMA, Jack Evans, Roderick Strong

2. Akira Tozawa vs. Genki Horiguchi vs. Jack Evans

3. ROH Tag Titles: Masato Yoshino, Naruki Doi vs. Austin Aries, Strong

4. Masaaki Mochizuki vs. Roderick Strong

5. Susumu Yokosuka vs. Austin Aries

7. Masato Yoshino, Jimmy Rave vs. Ryo Saito, Dragon Kid vs. CIMA, Don Fujii vs. Matt Sydal, Strong

 

 

Infinity 48

 

At a push...

 

5. Ryo Saito, Magnum TOKYO, Genki Horiguchi, Dragon Kid vs. Masaaki Mochizuki, Susumu Yokosuka, Keni'chiro Arai, Az

 

I assumed Az(rael?) was ROH affiliated in some way.

 

Infinity 50:

 

1. Ryo Saito, Dragon Kid, Genki Horiguchi vs. CIMA, BxB Hulk, Jack Evans

8. Open the Triangle Gate League Finals: Ryo Saito, Dragon Kid, Genki Horiguchi vs. CIMA, BxB Hulk, Jack Evans

 

PPVs

 

 

December 26th Gaora live special:

 

3. Jack Evans & Roderick Strong vs. Genki Horiguchi & Naoki Tanisaki

 

December 27th 2005 PPV:

 

4. Japan (Masato Yoshino, Naruki Doi) vs. US (Jack Evans, Roderick Strong) vs. Mexico (King Shisa, Vangelis)

 

February 24th PPV:

 

1. Kenichiro Arai/Jack Evans/Magnum TOKYO vs. BxB Hulk/Genki Horiguchi/Anthony W. Mori

 

April 23rd PPV:

 

Open the Brave Gate: Jack Evans vs. Masato Yoshino

 

July 2nd Kobe World hall PPV:

 

5. Dr. Muscle & Naruki Doi & Gamma & Naoki Tanisaki & Masato Yoshino vs. Don Fujii & Jack Evans & Yasushi Kanda & Roderick Strong & Matt Sydal

 

Sounds like the compilation from hell to me barring a few exceptions, but I could see there being interest for it and a couple of those matches were fun. The multi-man from World, the Aries matches and Yoshino vs Evans were all pretty watchable. Maybe combine it with DG in ROH to make up for the heavy clipping on some of that stuff.

[alexander]

I assumed Az(rael?) was ROH affiliated in some way.

In a sense. Azrael is the former Angel Dust, who has been a mainstay of JAPW and New York indies for many years now. He was in ROH for a long time as a member of rich boy raver stable Special K, then got serious, turned face and became Azrael. Where upon he was hailed as one of the future big players of the company. A few months later he was ditched by the promotion and hasn't been back since. I assume he was in Dragon Gate 'paying to play' in a similar sense to Mr Primetime. Literally one of my least favourite wrestlers ever.I'm here for you man.

[stone]

sorry to interupt the thread but can anyone tell me where i can get a hold of some DG stuff been wanting to since i saw the various DG guys in ROH?

[Famous Mortimer]

sorry to interupt the thread but can anyone tell me where i can get a hold of some DG stuff been wanting to since i saw the various DG guys in ROH?

That would be me. I've got all the Dragon Gate since it started, TV and PPVs, so let me know what you're after and we can work something out.

[stone]

sorry to interupt the thread but can anyone tell me where i can get a hold of some DG stuff been wanting to since i saw the various DG guys in ROH?

That would be me. I've got all the Dragon Gate since it started, TV and PPVs, so let me know what you're after and we can work something out.

i shall at some point cheers

[JLM]

In the past week I've had a question sent to me via PM because someone didn't want to disrupt the thread, and now we have an apology for "interrupting". This thread must give off some in your face "fuck off" vibes that I'm not aware of. In short: Any questions, comments or opinions you may have that are even slightly DG-related: Post away!

[JLM]

Time for not subtle at all mini-plug. I've put together a beginner's guide/FAQ for Dragon Gate. Nothing too flashy, just a bunch of Word documents. The main guide is 6-7,000 words and covers a brief history, a description of what the promotion is about now and info on the titles, TV shows and some of the more elaborate stipulation matches.Accompanying this is a folder of biographies for everyone on the main roster and small bios for each of the current units. Not sure of the word count for the whole lot, but it undoubtedly got a little out of hand after I got carried away with it. Still, I like to think it'll be quite helpful for the new DG viewer. I'll upload it somewhere soon, but for now if anyone wants it I can email it or send it over PM. Let me know!

[huwbacca]

very cool JLM i've got way too many gaps in my knowledge of DG events and history so i'd love to read up on that I'm still waiting on a few infinities to arrive so i can catch up as is :DOn a sidenote i'm also exposing my Girlfriend to DG soon as i've sorted out the her friendly stuff She's more into the comedy side of things as she loves a lot of Chikara pro so anyone got some must see match suggestions for me?

[Jun Kasai]

For those wondering about Naoki Tanisakis' whereabouts. Naoki is unable to compete until next year, due to a no compete clause of sorts. This was a term of his resignation.credit DGUSA

I was wondering what the hell had happened to him, it'll be interesting to see where he pops up next year.

[JLM]

Yeah, that's actually the first I've heard of a DG departee being bound by such a clause, though I doubt he had plans to get a new job straight away as one of his main reasons for not renewing his contract was his desire to spend more time with his wife and new baby. The logical destination for him is El dorado, though it's hard to say whether or not they'll even still be in business by then. He'd be a welcome addition to just about any junior division though, I'd love to see him give All Japan a try.

[alexander]

Yeah, that's actually the first I've heard of a DG departee being bound by such a clause, though I doubt he had plans to get a new job straight away as one of his main reasons for not renewing his contract was his desire to spend more time with his wife and new baby. The logical destination for him is El dorado, though it's hard to say whether or not they'll even still be in business by then. He'd be a welcome addition to just about any junior division though, I'd love to see him give All Japan a try.

'Evil' Naoki would be a great fit for any junior division, but he'd slot into the Voodoo Murders stable perfectly. It's amazing how much I've missed watching the guy wrestle, he really was an under apreciated talent.

[Jun Kasai]

I've just watched this match for the first time ,UWA 6 Person Tag Title 4 Way Match - Italian Connection Milano Collection AT, YOSSINO, Condotti Shuji vs.Do Fixer Genki Horiguchi, Magnum TOKYO, Susumu Yokosuka vs. Shin M2K Masaaki Mochizuki, Araken, Dragon Kid vs. Crazy Max CIMA, SUWA, Don Fujii from 8/30/03.

 

This match is awesome, better than the aclaimed Blood Gen/Do Fixer match from RoH in IMO, the match has everything, there's too many great spots to name and remember and theres some great individual performances from the likes of SUWA, Don Fuji & Shuji Kondo but Genki trakes the MVP of the match for me everything he did was brilliant. All in all it's 25 minutes of superb action.

[$tew]

Infinity #48

Yes, me and Moj just watched this. God bless Dragon Gate... for there is nothing better. Some thoughts.

1. Yamato Onodera vs. Yasushi KandaAlthough this is Onodera's TV debut, he'd been wrestling Kanda in the DG equivalent fo dark matches for a while before it. This, combined with Kanda's relatively low rank as a technically new wrestler means that he's a lot more competitive than Tozawa and Yuki Ono were in their first televised outings. He doesn't get to show much but looks relatively solid. He hits a death valley driver for two, which could become part of his regular offense as no one else is using it at the moment. To be honest I enjoyed watching Kanda do his thing more than anything. Still hard to believe that he's back full time. Post-match, Onodera gets his Kanda-esque outfit and is invited to join Final M2K, effective immediately as part of their Triangle Gate league team.

Who the hell is this Yamato dude anyway, and why is a rookie getting entry to Final M2K?? Also, wasn't the idea of "Final" M2K that they stop all the fucking about with membership and have a single settled stable?

4. Open the Dream Gate Title Contendership, Key Hunting 3 Way Match:King Shisa vs. Taku Iwasa vs. Magnitude KishiwadaA truly bizarre line up for a number one contendership match. Curses to Aries and Strong for denying us Ryo vs Doi, that would have rocked. As it was, this was a bit of a clipped up mess. Apparently it went 18 minutes. What we got to see is some half arsed chair duelling, Magnitude getting frustrated and wasting all his turnbuckle searches for an early elimination and then King Shisa dealing with Iwasa with relative ease using the BT Bomb. Was nice to hear the loud support for Iwasa though.

We didn't have a fucking clue what was going on here, although we pretty much figured out that there must be a limited number of searches (hence why Magnitude left the ring). Since when was this considered a fair and just way to determine a #1 contender anyway? A weird, weird match.

5. Masaaki Mochizuki, Susumu Yokosuka, Kenichiro Arai & AZ vs. Magnum TOKYO, Ryo Saito, Dragon Kid & Genki HoriguchiAfter a dull and seemingly aimless start, some clipping leads into a very watchable last ten minutes. The M2K triple teaming on Genki is very cool, Dragon Kid is on fire with his execution and the whole closing stretch is wonderfully fluid. Az's input is kept to a minimum, and unless he's improved a whole lot since I last saw him that's probably for the best. That said, his involvement in the last couple of minutes is perfectly fine and in terms of making up the numbers and chipping in with some flashiness he does alright. Not sure why they felt the need to show so much of this with so many tournament matches to cover, but it was good fun.

You're not sure why they felt the need to show so much of this? Let me tell you the reason... because it was the greatest thing that's ever been in the world. Seriously, we were marking out like bitches for this, and the finishing sprint had approximately 938,384,059,201 near falls (I counted!). This was seriously great. Better than the ROH MOTYC.I didn't know or recognise AZ.

7. WAR International Jr. Heavyweight Tag Team Title Tournament - Round 1:Gamma & Dr. Muscle vs. Susumu Yokosuka & Kenichiro AraiI would curse Aries and Strong again for denying us the Doi/Gamma team of maximum dickishness, but if we're only getting uber-clipped highlights then it's no great loss. The time for this was 17 minutes, we get considerably less. Gamma does that awesome water dribbling thing, and Araken counters it in a disgusting yet innovative way, catching most of it in his mouth and then spraying it back in Gamma's face in that classic Araken style. Nasty. The part of Dr. Muscle in this match is played by Magnitude Kishiwada.

Yeah, figured it was Magnitude from the Last Ride, which wasa bit of a giveaway. Good match, and that FUCKING Muscle Outlawz referee is the biggest prick in wrestling today.

9. WAR International Jr. Heavyweight Tag Team Title Tournament - Round 1:Don Fujii & Yasushi Kanda vs. Magnum TOKYO & Masaaki MochizukiMochi vs Kanda, you don't see that every day. Kanda is heart-warmingly heroic here, kicking out of everything he can before succumbing to a Zetsuen for Magu, who needlessly pins him using an arrogant one foot cover. Git.

Is "Zetsuen" Japanese for "the most hurty looking, and not at all pulled, kick to the face that you've ever seen"? Because if it's not, it should be. OUCH.

10. WAR International Jr. Heavyweight Tag Team Title Tournament - Semi Final: Ryo Saito & Dragon Kid vs. Gamma & Dr. MuscleI love the DG announcers sometimes. They chat briefly about Dr. Muscle at the beginning, and point out that his finishing hold appears to be the Last Ride. Heh. Slightly more extended highlights for the semis thankfully. Dr. Muscle here is Yoshino, though in the highlights he only busts out Dr. Muscle trademark offense, which amounts to a choke and the sit-out chokeslam. The finish was just beautiful. Muscle takes a release dragon suplex from Ryo, staggers to his feet and gets caught with Kid's Ulta Hurricanrana. With considerable help from Kinta he rolls through into a pin of his own, which leads to the fastest fast count of all time. Genki's furious reaction is what really makes it though.

Yes, the fucking ref again. Bastard. I want him to die.We didn't immediately realise that Dr Muscle was Yoshino in this one, save for one moment when he staggers in the ring after falling to the outside and hits the FASTEST ACCELERATION ever to hit a low dropkick. That should have given away that it was Yoshino, looking back.

12. WAR International Jr. Heavyweight Tag Team Title Tournament - Final: Masaaki Mochizuki & Don Fujii vs. Gamma & Dr. Muscle Twenty minutes of the episode left, only the final to cover. This is a good thing. The Don~! steps in to replace blind Magu, which means Fujii vs Gamma exchanges. Dr. Muscle is Yoshino again. The commentators become slightly suspicious, if he's not careful they might be onto him soon... ("torbellino?"). They're still SHOCKED when he unmasks though. Does anyone in DG do a better job of isolated tag partner than Don Fujii? How can you not root for this guy - him replacing Magu almost certainly made this a better match. Mochi does his one man killing machine act here like he used to do when he captained Shin M2K teams. As for Gamma, if anyone proves that wrestling isn't about how many holds you can do it's him. He doesn't actually do any wrestling moves in the entire match aside from a pinning cradle and a chop. Instead he spends his time poking eyes, kicking groins, spitting into his palms and rubbing it in faces, smacking people with his bamboo sword and cackling like a mad man. He doesn't need to do any more than that either. Special mention to Kinta also, who has developed into a fine heel over the past few months.Everything clicked for me in this match. The now typical screwy closing stretch with Kinta evilness and Yagi intervention can be overlooked because the whole thing is always so dramatic and heated that it all adds to the match rather than feeling overbooked most of the time.

I was horrified that there was no Magu in the final... but I echo the sentiments re: Don Fujii... he was immense in this one.And no "special mentions" for Kinta, thanks... the fucker.The best thing about this match is that you can't help but get emotionally involved. When Mochi got the bamboo stick, and then threw it down rather than use it on Gamma, I immediately shouted "No... don't throw it down beside the fucking ref - he'll use it against you!!"... and lo, he did. I was genuinely happy and excited that Mochi & Fujii won too - otherwise I may have had to hunt down Muscle Outlaws one at a time and horrifically murder them in a brutal Kill Bill style revenge motif.Heels you genuinely HATE, and babyfaces that you can get behind.... all mixed up in a ball of state-of-the-art wrestling. Dragon Gate, how I love thee.