Wrestling Observer's "100 Greatest Wrestlers"

[sgmilne]

I think overall it's a pretty fair list for how it's judgedI think alot of people are judging wrestlers like Andre the Giant from his WWF appearances from Wrestlemania 1-6. At that time, there's no doubt he was absolutly lousy, but over the sum of his whole career, he deserves to be placed at 6.I think one of the big problems of this list is not so much who is placed where, but how it's judged.At the end of the day, it seems to be, as someone has already said, a combination of charisma, drawing power and wrestling ability. And in some cases, if a wrestler somehow revolutionised the business in some way. It's a bit unfair to do that if you ask me, and these things cannot be anything but subjective. If it was judged on taking everyone and placing them in the envirnonment of today, Andre wouldnt be anywhere near 6.Wrestling up until the 80s, exceptionally dull by today's standards. All punch/kick/amatuer grapple etc. If you were to put a wrestler like Brock Lesnar into the 1950s with his moveset and with a manager who could do the talking, you'd be looking at these old timers saying he was the greatest wrestler of all time.The quality of wrestling in these days is completly different to what it was back then. We're unquestionably spoilt and over-satiated with what we see these days. In their respective eras, guys like Billy Graham, Andre the Giant, Gorgeous George and Rikidozan were considered great because they were so different. But if you were to replace these guys with modern day counterparts, they'd look totally inferior.It's all because we've come to expect a certain level of performance, that it becomes stale, and we look back fondly at the trend setters of the past as something special and better.I'll probably get slaughtered for this but if you were to take a guy like A-Train or the Big Show and exchange them for Andre the Giant in history, then you'd have one of the first two branded "the benchmark for big man wrestlers". Whereas if you were to put an in-his-prime Andre into todays WWF, you'd think he was an uncharismatic stiff who was only capable of some of the basic moves. It's the same for if you were to replace Billy Graham with Scott Steiner or Triple H, or if you were to swap Rico and Gorgeous George.Also, take the example of George Hackenschmidt or Ed Lewis. Sure, these guys were hard bastards, but if you were to put on a match of theres these days, it'd be boring crap, and they'd be criticised for being terrible.At the end of the day, wrestlers today are superior to their counterparts of the past, but it's because there's a continuing improvement and expectance of performance, alot of wrestlers seem to be poorer. Also, to remain fresh, wrestlers have to strive to be constantly different. We don't tune in to the TV and go "ooh, that guy has entrance music. He will forever be established as a legend". But thats really what happened with Gorgeous George. I think we should be greatful for the wrestling we see on our TVs.

[Rob Edwards]

Both shows were pretty much sold out weeks in advance of any matches being announced for either show.

Didn't know that but it was always fairly obvious that Rock was going to headline both shows, find me someone who thought anything other than Rock/Austin was going to headline Mania X7 and I'll slap them about a bit for you

Erm, Triple H?

HHH didn't do big numbers without Rock, Austin and Foley as I recall

He didn

[doinbadabing]

I was suprised not to see Hennig amongst them, and I'd have thought Muta and Bret Hart would have been higher. Is Rey Mysterio in there? That guys a legend across the globe.surely Kurt Angle and Chris Benoit will feature high up in a few years time.

Edited November 28, 2003 by doinbadabing

[ChrisJ]

I swear I've seen Muchnick mentioned as a wrestler (albeit a lower one) on a couple of cards before he got into promoting. It could be me just getting mixed up with any one of the NWA founders, mind.

Lister will probably know but I can remember Da Meltz saying Muchnick never wrestled.If he did indeed have an in-ring career then I assume it was pretty unremarkable.

When I said it I'm going on my memory of writing a piece about the formation of the NWA, using Sex, Lies and Headlocks (yeah, I know, but it has some truth in it). I don't know why, but I seem to remember that Muchnick wrestling in St. Louis as well as promoting it. We need to get Lister here.

I can't believe Bob Backlund and Pedro Morales aren't on the list at all.

Backlund is debatable, but what reasons do you have for Morales ?

I personally don't think Backlund is debatable - he was a flop in comparison to the champions that preceeded and followed him. Perhaps it's the fact that he didn't sell anything of Flair's in the '93 Rumble that makes me hate him, but I never liked him, and never got the impression that he was a success. I'd put him in the same league as Morales - failed experiment.

No, but what I'm trying to get at here is that the ones that didn't do that style generally have the complete package, which is what the list is meant to be based on.

Not sure I understand what you mean. You talked about HHH having a punch/kick style, and Thesz & Rikidozan didn't. Where they the complete package, or the other way round ? I'm lost

I meant that Thesz (yeah, Rikidozan doesn't really) had both the wrestling skills, drawing power and decent charisma to make the complete package. HHH has charisma and had/has drawing power, but recently hasn't had the wrestling skills to back it up. Same can be said for Austin when his body broke down, etc. So Thesz = closest-to-complete out of the few people we mentioned, HHH = not, at least presently. 2000 HHH I would say did have everything that he needed.

There's a few people from the 70's and possibly a couple more from other times that outdrew Hart. Not all that's to blame on him, however; Hogan hit a boom period in wrestling, as did Austin/Rock. Andre was around in the 70's, along with Sammartino, which was a big time for the WWWF as they were starting to gain momentum. 2000 was unreal in popularity for the WWF, and HHH was on top of the pile then. Hart, however, was stuck with the remnants of the steriod trial.

I see this a lot coming from Hart supporters, but there's too many flaws in this theory for it to hold much ground. The only one I think got lucky being the right man when business was hot is HHH. Andre was a huge draw, no matter if business was up or down. Ditto Hogan, who created a boom period. As did Austin. Rock was kinda like HHH in that he rode on the success of Austin, but with his talent and charisma, I think he would have been huge anyway. Sammartino was always a big draw as well, because he made himself big, not because 'this was a good time for busines'. Hart wasn't a big draw because...he wasn't. Period. nWo caught fire during this time, and if the steroid/sex scandals were the sole reason for him not drawing, he would have drawn bigger than he did. Fact is, Hogan, Austin, Bruno etc MADE themselves great draws, whether business was up or down -- Hart couldn't.

I'm talking about 1993-1994 Hart, when I believe he really was stuck in a fairly hard place. He probably couldn't make himself a great draw, due to his apparent lack of charisma. I wouldn't class myself as a Hart supporter - I liked a lot of his matches, but don't have the same feeling that I do for others such as Flair, Race and London, for a modern-day equivalent.Now for the 'did they make themselves popular' argument...Andre: True.Hogan: Hogan, I think got lucky...kinda. While I won't disagree that Vince Jr. seemed to have planned Hulkamania for a while before it arrived, I think he was just in the right place at the right time. We could've had another charismatic, bulging wrestler in his place if the AWA thing hadn't fallen through when it did.Austin: While Austin's attitude was what made him what he is nowadays, I think he was lucky. McMahon wanted to push the envelope, Austin was just the person to do it. They could've possibly chosen someone else, so again, I'm 50/50 on reflection.Rock: I can live with your explanation of Rock making his own star, and that he would've made it eventually.Sammartino: I wasn't trying to say Sammartino did nothing to make himself the choice for champ - he had to have done something for McMahon to decide to use him as company leader in the 70's, and to go back to him when the Morales reign didn't draw as well as hoped. I'd say it's a mixture of both, really.HHH: He got lucky, but did work hard for his place too - I remember when he was this pudgy guy who was a DX flunky.

Consistently, he hasn't drawn as much as Kobashi, but that's a kind of justification to me.

Not sure if I agree with that. Piper was a MAJOR draw in Portland, Mid-Atlantic, California, WWF, and even later in WCW. I think he far outdrew Kobashi actually.

Ehhh...I'm wrong. I will say, however, that Portland/Mid-Atlantic, Cali. from the 70's and 80's is much different to AJ in the 90's. The draw in the 70's and 80's was much in Piper's favour, that being that people generally bought tickets to see the heel destroyed, which is the character we all love Piper for playing, whereas in Japan it seems a bit more for workrate and a good wrestling match; you just don't seem to have that kind of heat in Japan in recent years.Boy, did I get proved wrong...

[JNLister]

When I said it I'm going on my memory of writing a piece about the formation of the NWA, using Sex, Lies and Headlocks (yeah, I know, but it has some truth in it). I don't know why, but I seem to remember that Muchnick wrestling in St. Louis as well as promoting it. We need to get Lister here.

I had to search through my spare room to find the official index to the Observer (a great deal for $5) to find the issue with the obit. No he didn't wrestle. He was a popular sportswriter in St Louis and after his paper merged with a rival and he was made redundant, he joined the management of the local wrestling group.

[edgecrusher]

I third the guy who mentioned Kobashi and Toyota. Why aren't they on there and Rowdy frickin' Roddy Piper is? Maybe he's better with the stick, but he was never a better wrestler, certainly wasn't as charismatic, and I sincerely doubt he was a bigger draw. Can ANYONE justify or explain this little quandry?

Piper was a far bigger star than Toyota was. Kobashi is more arguable, but personally I'd put Piper above him too. Sure, they were better wrestlers, but for promos, charisma, drawing ability and historical importance, Piper is way ahead of both.

How's it fair to compare Toyota and Kobashi to Piper on promos, considering that a) they speak another language (sorry if you speak Japanese, I didn't know) and b) they both worked in companies whose promo style differs massively from WWF/E? As far as you know they could be brilliant with the stick. -with a loo brushI'm sorry, you must back up that charisma statement. Both Kobashi and Toyota have shedloads of charisma. I'll agree that Aja Kong is a bigger star than Toyota, so I'll switch gears and include her in this. How does Piper compare to Kong/Kobashi in charisma? In my opinion, he certainly isn't higher. -in my pantsDrawing ability, I sincerely doubt you're right. Yes, Piper may have drawn plenty of money, but Kong and Kobashi were both stars that helped their respective promotions reach the heights that it did. Kobashi is one of the icons from the 'golden age' of Puro, and Kong is one of the most famous female wrestlers of all time. Maybe only in Japan, but that's hardly her fault, because there's hardly any market for female wrestling in the states. Both must have drawn BUCKETLOADS when AJPW and AJW were at their heights. Both have since gone on to be massive stars in whatever promotions they touched, too. -with a loo brushHistorical importance I can't really compare on. I'm not as knowledgeable as I should be for a self-proclaimed smark. But surely Kong/Kobashi deserve some historical credit for aiding their promotions so much? Piper was only a gear in WWF, not the machine. Those two superstars were as close to being the machine as you could get (though obviously Misawa was higher than Kobashi). Anyway, please educate if I'm wrong. -in my pantsI think the fact that Toyota, Kong and Kobashi still ARE massive stars is a point in their favour, too. Nobody seems to care about Piper anymore (though he was certainly over when he returned in WWE). -with a loo brushOn top of that, all three are vastly superior workers. Many believe Kobashi to be a shoe-in for the best worker of all time. I can't think of anyone who has ever backed up a claim to justify not including him in the top five. THAT doesn't qualify him to be in a top 100?????? There is still 'wrestling' in wrestling, right? -in my pants

[BionicRedneck]

I agree with pretty much everything you said, except:

Many believe Kobashi to be a shoe-in for the best worker of all time. I can't think of anyone who has ever backed up a claim to justify not including him in the top five

I don't know anybody (maybe Mo?) who believes he is a "shoe-in" for the best worker of all time. He wouldn't be in my top five, either. I'd take Kawada, Misawa, Hansen, Hokuto, Destroyer, Jumbo and maybe more (possibly Tenryu, Kong, Liger, Race)all over Kobashi. Plus, there are plenty of great wrestlers out there that I haven't seen enough of to comment (Yokota, Santo etc.) so I don't even know it Kobashi would make my top 10.

[Terje Rindal]

Wrestling up until the 80s, exceptionally dull by today's standards. All punch/kick/amatuer grapple etc. If you were to put a wrestler like Brock Lesnar into the 1950s with his moveset and with a manager who could do the talking, you'd be looking at these old timers saying he was the greatest wrestler of all time.

 

The quality of wrestling in these days is completly different to what it was back then. We're unquestionably spoilt and over-satiated with what we see these days. In their respective eras, guys like Billy Graham, Andre the Giant, Gorgeous George and Rikidozan were considered great because they were so different. But if you were to replace these guys with modern day counterparts, they'd look totally inferior.

 

It's all because we've come to expect a certain level of performance, that it becomes stale, and we look back fondly at the trend setters of the past as something special and better.

 

I'll probably get slaughtered for this but if you were to take a guy like A-Train or the Big Show and exchange them for Andre the Giant in history, then you'd have one of the first two branded "the benchmark for big man wrestlers". Whereas if you were to put an in-his-prime Andre into todays WWF, you'd think he was an uncharismatic stiff who was only capable of some of the basic moves. It's the same for if you were to replace Billy Graham with Scott Steiner or Triple H, or if you were to swap Rico and Gorgeous George.

 

Also, take the example of George Hackenschmidt or Ed Lewis. Sure, these guys were hard bastards, but if you were to put on a match of theres these days, it'd be boring crap, and they'd be criticised for being terrible.

 

At the end of the day, wrestlers today are superior to their counterparts of the past, but it's because there's a continuing improvement and expectance of performance, alot of wrestlers seem to be poorer. Also, to remain fresh, wrestlers have to strive to be constantly different. We don't tune in to the TV and go "ooh, that guy has entrance music. He will forever be established as a legend". But thats really what happened with Gorgeous George. I think we should be greatful for the wrestling we see on our TVs.

 

I see what you're saying here, but I don't think that's a very fair way to look at things at all. You can only judge wrestlers (as everything else in life) up against their own time and era. For example, even the worst airplanes today smokes the Wright brothers plane, but you can't hardly call their plane crap, can you ?

 

Everything in the world evolves, including wrestling. On that note, I think this is as fair a list as you'll likely to get.

 

I personally don't think Backlund is debatable - he was a flop in comparison to the champions that preceeded and followed him. Perhaps it's the fact that he didn't sell anything of Flair's in the '93 Rumble that makes me hate him' date=' but I never liked him, and never got the impression that he was a success. I'd put him in the same league as Morales - failed experiment.[/quote']

 

I don't think the phrase 'failed experiment' fits Backlund very well. Sure, he wasn't as big a draw as Bruno or Hogan, but he did contstantly very good business for the most part of his title reign.

 

HHH has charisma and had/has drawing power' date=' but recently hasn't had the wrestling skills to back it up. Same can be said for Austin when his body broke down, etc. [/quote']

 

Austin may have lost his bumping, but he did manage to change his style after his body gave up on him. While he was a very different worker than before, I'd say he was easily as good, if not much better.

 

Hogan: Hogan' date=' I think got lucky...kinda. While I won't disagree that Vince Jr. seemed to have planned Hulkamania for a while before it arrived, I think he was just in the right place at the right time. We could've had another charismatic, bulging wrestler in his place if the AWA thing hadn't fallen through when it did.[/quote']

 

Nah.

 

Hogan was already a huge star, way before "Hulkamania was born, in January 1984". Sure, he wouldn't have been the global celebrity that he became, but he would have been one of the top (if not THE top) stars in both the US and Japan, with or without McMahon.

 

I also don't think saying they 'could have just gotten another roided charismatic wrestler instead of Hogan' is accurate, as Hogan was way above that, especially in the charisma department. Not to mention having a cool name, that was easy for kids to get into.

 

Austin: While Austin's attitude was what made him what he is nowadays' date=' I think he was lucky. McMahon wanted to push the envelope, Austin was just the person to do it. They could've possibly chosen someone else, so again, I'm 50/50 on reflection.[/quote']

 

Sure, Austin was in the right place at the right time, but his work, psychology, charisma and promos put him in a league no one else would be able to reach.

 

How's it fair to compare Toyota and Kobashi to Piper on promos' date=' considering that a) they speak another language (sorry if you speak Japanese, I didn't know) and b) they both worked in companies whose promo style differs massively from WWF/E? As far as you know they could be brilliant with the stick.[/quote']

 

Well, I wasn't really comparing them when it came to promos, for the obvious reasons you mentioned (but I do speak Japanese by the way ).

 

The reason I brought up promos is that this is one of the things that Piper really shines at. After all, he's widely known as one of the premier promo men of all time, in the league of Lawler, Cornette and Flair from his era.

 

I'm sorry' date=' you must back up that charisma statement. Both Kobashi and Toyota have shedloads of charisma. I'll agree that Aja Kong is a bigger star than Toyota, so I'll switch gears and include her in this. How does Piper compare to Kong/Kobashi in charisma? In my opinion, he certainly isn't higher.[/quote']

 

I've never thought of Toyota (or even Aja) as very charismatic actually. And I'm a big fan. Kobashi, certainly, but I think Piper is way above. After all, Kobashi, Toyota and Aja were much better in-ring workers than Piper was, so for him to be as big a draw as he was, he had to be very charismatic indeed.

 

Drawing ability' date=' I sincerely doubt you're right. Yes, Piper may have drawn plenty of money, but Kong and Kobashi were both stars that helped their respective promotions reach the heights that it did. Kobashi is one of the icons from the 'golden age' of Puro, and Kong is one of the most famous female wrestlers of all time. Maybe only in Japan, but that's hardly her fault, because there's hardly any market for female wrestling in the states. Both must have drawn BUCKETLOADS when AJPW and AJW were at their heights. Both have since gone on to be massive stars in whatever promotions they touched, too.[/quote']

 

I don't think Kobashi can even touch Piper in the drawing departement. When AJPW was at it's peak in the mid-90's [before the product became stale and business declined], Kobashi was just a piece of the complete package. Misawa was obviously a bigger draw, as was Hansen. Jumbo as well, and I'd think Kawada was too, and maybe even Williams. Baba was still a HUGE draw too at this time, particularly outside of Tokyo.

 

I can't really speak for Aja or Toyota; PUNQ can probably shed some light on this.

 

Historical importance I can't really compare on. I'm not as knowledgeable as I should be for a self-proclaimed smark. But surely Kong/Kobashi deserve some historical credit for aiding their promotions so much? Piper was only a gear in WWF' date=' not the machine. Those two superstars were as close to being the machine as you could get (though obviously Misawa was higher than Kobashi). Anyway, please educate if I'm wrong[/quote']

 

I'd say Piper was more than a gear in the WWF, as he was Hogan's top drawing opponent of the era (with the exeption of Andre), and a huge part of the Rock N Wrestling angle.

 

Obviously Kobashi deserves credit for his work in AJPW, but historically I don't think he's THAT important. For the history of AJPW, he's probably not even top 10. Piper may not be in WWF either, but he worked many more places.

 

I think the fact that Toyota' date=' Kong and Kobashi still ARE massive stars is a point in their favour, too. Nobody seems to care about Piper anymore (though he was certainly over when he returned in WWE).[/quote']

 

I don't think that's fair to Piper. After all, his body is shot, and the American crowds consist more of teenagers than the Japanese, who are less likely to get into stars of yesterday.

 

On top of that' date=' all three are vastly superior workers. Many believe Kobashi to be a shoe-in for the best worker of all time. I can't think of anyone who has ever backed up a claim to justify not including him in the top five. THAT doesn't qualify him to be in a top 100?????? There is still 'wrestling' in wrestling, right?[/quote']

 

Besides Meltzer, I've never seen anyone say that about Kobashi actually. He's fucking great, and should probably be on a top 100 list, but looking at that list, there isn't many I would exclude in favour of him.

[edgecrusher]

I agree with pretty much everything you said, except:

Many believe Kobashi to be a shoe-in for the best worker of all time. I can't think of anyone who has ever backed up a claim to justify not including him in the top five

I don't know anybody (maybe Mo?) who believes he is a "shoe-in" for the best worker of all time. He wouldn't be in my top five, either. I'd take Kawada, Misawa, Hansen, Hokuto, Destroyer, Jumbo and maybe more (possibly Tenryu, Kong, Liger, Race)all over Kobashi. Plus, there are plenty of great wrestlers out there that I haven't seen enough of to comment (Yokota, Santo etc.) so I don't even know it Kobashi would make my top 10.

I think there's a few on the forum who've said similar, and I like him best. Still, I haven't even heard of Yokoto and Santo so what do I know? -in my pantsI suppose I'll have to admit defeat on Kenta's inclusion in the top 100, since its pretty much established that being a good wrestler is a fairly minor factor in the rankings. Grrr. HE SHOULD BE NUMBER 1 ANYWAY, DAMMIT! -with a loo brush

[BionicRedneck]

You think he is better than Jumbo?Weirdo

[edgecrusher]

I think JUmbo's really good, from what I've seen. I don't know if I've seen his classics, mind, for all I know I saw him in the twilight of his career, but the matches I saw with Mitsuhara Misawa didn't quite grip me in the same way some of the Kobashi ones have and do. I need to get more puro, dammit. Haven't seen any new wrestling in ages and talking about Kobashi makes me want to see a best of tape! But I do need to brush up on some of the golden oldies too...mmmm....golden oldies.... -with a loo brush

[Terje Rindal]

the matches I saw with Mitsuhara Misawa didn't quite grip me in the same way some of the Kobashi ones have and do.

Get some earlier footage of him, and witness his evelution from the upstarting youngster, to evenutally overtaking Baba as the top man of the promotion, to defending the honour of AJPW against the evil Choshu, through the Tenryu feud, and eventually becoming the grumpy veteran trying to hold the young blokes down to hang on to his top spot. Best...wrestler...ever.

[ChrisJ]

I also don't think saying they 'could have just gotten another roided charismatic wrestler instead of Hogan' is accurate, as Hogan was way above that, especially in the charisma department. Not to mention having a cool name, that was easy for kids to get into.

I'll have to disagree with this, and say that, had Hogan not gone back to the WWF in 84, Randy Savage would be the person we're talking about. The marketing thing wouldn't have been Savage-a-mania, but we'd have had the same kind of interviews, just more of a growling thing. Plus, Savage had Liz, which gave a foil for the heel characters to play off during matches. He was ten times the worker Hogan was around that time, so that'd have been even better for us. Sure, you couldn't do the stupid fitness segments with Okerlund on TNT, but you could have Okerlund being shown some of the 'Macho Man's Moves' (

[riccardo]

An actual LOL moment there. I'd like to know how much Blassie stuff Denim Rob has seen to come up with a comparison to Mil

Alright i get your point. i have only seen mil mascaras at rumble 97 and he was awful! hopefully he was a lot better when he was younger! and yes ure right i have only read about blassie not seen! .But to say mil is a greater wrestler than HBK is a big slap in the face. oh and i have seen quite a few hbk matches u know!

Dude, you judge Mil Mascaras peformance at 55 (in 1997) and compare it to HBK's performance at mid-30s?

wtf? mil mascaras was in rumble 97? ive watched that video recently and recall that it featured hector garza, perro aguayo jr, heavy metal, fuerza guerrera, canek (you know, that guy nobody on here knows ) and jerry estrada but dont recall mil mascaras. when is he in it? cos hes not in the lucha 6-manedit: my apologies, dont remember him in the rumble, but remember latin lover. just found out he was in rumble. did wwe strike some kind of deal with mexico for this ppv or something? Edited December 2, 2003 by riccardo2k

[ChrisJ]

It probably had something to do with SuperAstros, which I believe they were trying to promote at the time.