Wrestling Observer's "100 Greatest Wrestlers"

[edgecrusher]

So are you excusing The Rock for poor draws because he was the heel? Ok fair enough. But you cant knock HHH's drawings then either, because he was/is mostly heel where as The Rock and Austin are mostly face. Sayin he only drew if he was against The Rock, Foley or Austin. - Surely the same heel rule you apply to The Rock has to be applied to Trips too?

I'd say its different, because I don't remember Triple H drawing particularly well as a face except during the DX years. Not having the figures he may not even have drawn well then, either. If I'm right then the fact that Trippers doesn't draw well as a face obviously marks him as a bit limited. The Rock, Austin and Foley all did well whether face or heel. I'm not sure if Mick was ever a big star until he turned face, of course... -in my pants

At Royal Rumble 2000 when HHH fought Foley in Madison Square Garden, it wasnt Foley selling it on his own. For the past 6 months Foley had been mid-card at best. He was the Rocks sidekick in the The Rock n Sock Connection, teaming with Al Snow in the tag team division and feuding with Val Venis on PPV. So you cant give Foley all the credit for the draws in his feud with HHH.

Foley did almost all of the buildup for that match. His promo where he turned into Cactus Jack (who is a Madison Square Garden sentimental favourite anyway AND had history with Triple H as well) was brilliant stuff, and I think the draw in that feud can largely be handed to Trippers. There was nothing special about that match without Cactus Jack in it. The entire basis of it was that Trippers was in deep trouble and had pushed Mick too far and was now going to suffer for it. He didn't of course, because Trippers is the hardest man alive, but that was the basis of the match and the reason it sold: All provided by Mick. Whether Trippers had sold it stone cold or terrified, people would have paid to see that. -with a loo brushAnother point is that even if Mick wasn't feuding at the top of the card he was still massively over. The Rock and Sock connection was hilarious as it was intended to be, as was the Al Snow teamup angle. I don't even remember feuding with Val Venis so I can't remember anything about it. I doubt it was impressive, though... -in my pants

After that HHH was involved in better feuds than The Rock.The following feuds happened at the same time as each other. HHH v Jericho was better than Rock v Benoit for Fully Loaded. HHH v Foley was better than The Rock v Big Show. And Triple H v Angle was better than nearly any Rock feud/storyline!

So in other words, Triple H had better feuds when he was working with people who are renowned for being brilliant with the stick and incredibly charismatic, while The Rock was trying to have equally good feuds with Mr Roboto and The Big Slow? -with a loo brushCan you name me one wrestler who has had a brilliant feud with The Big Slow? Chris Benoit is a different matter, I think, because of recent he has gotten over through sheer hard work, partly thanks to Kurt Angle. However, Triple H of today couldn't have a decent feud with Benoit I'm quite certain, because he isn't the right kind of opponent to play to Benoit's strengths. A Benoit feud without great matches doesn't seem to work. Trippers was given better opposition. Had their roles been reversed it is quite likely that the results would have been pretty pathetic for Trippers, IMO. -in my pants

In 2000, Triple H was a much bigger star than The Rock. He had better feuds, matches and main evented more than Rocky. Even when Rock was main eventing a PPV, HHH's matches were the more looked forward to matches - and this is pre holding down the talent HHH.

Better feuds and matches, maybe, but he was never, is not, and will never be as big a star as The Rock. Maybe you looked forward to HHH's matches more than the average fan, but the way the people reacted to their champion suggests that you're in the minority. -with a loo brush

And for you to sayQUOTE  HHH didn't do big numbers without Rock, Austin and Foley as I  recall You could say The Rock didnt do big numbers with out HHH, Austin and Foley either.When did The Rock draw big money without either one of these stars? Maybe Hogan at Mania 18, but that was Hogans draw, Hogan would have got that draw with anyone - HHH, Stone Cold, Undertaker, Kurt Angle or the Brooklyn Brawler - The Rock cannot get credit for that draw.All of The Rock's biggest matches and draws include HHH, Austin or Foley.

Can't argue with anything but the 'that was Hogan's draw' comment. The match didn't draw because Hogan was involved, but because it was a dream match come true. How did The Rock vs. Goldberg compare to Trippers efforts, as a matter of point? -in my pantsHad Hogan been in the ring with the Brooklyn Brawler he might have gotten massive pops, but the crowd heat would not have been so mind-bogglingly intense. The Rock gets half-credit for that draw. Had Triple H been involved in that match I doubt it would have done half as well. -with a loo brush

[Terje Rindal]

And there was a Takada vs. Tenryu headlined show at the Jingu baseball stadium that drew over 40,000 for the UWF-I in the summer of 1996, plus you also have Takada

[Rob Edwards]

You don

[ChrisJ]

I highly doubt it.The main thing that got Hogan over was his charisma, and Savage, while very charismatic himself, wasn't even close. Hogan also had the tremendous size going for him [which was unique at the time], which Savage didn't. Hogan also did the Real American gimmick, which fit the 80's to a T. Obviously Savage could have been given that gimmick too, but we'll never know. Savage was a much better in-ring worker than Hogan was, but the 80's WWF wasn't about that at all. And Hogan had the rub from the Rocky movie, which was a big deal as well. And re: Elizabeth; the only reason she was hired is that Greg Valentine's wife turned the position down.

Yeah, but look at Ricky Steamboat in the WWF - not a good interview, his wrestling skill was what kept him at the level he was at (near-ish the main event) for his spell in the WWF. Savage, as you say, could've been given the Real American gimmick and I think he'd have flown with it. The Rocky point is true. The charisma thing, I'd disagree with. Hogan, admittedly was stupidly charismatic, but Savage was much closer than you make out to Hogan.As for Elizabeth, I never knew that. You learn something every day

[bobbins]

I'll have to disagree with this, and say that, had Hogan not gone back to the WWF in 84, Randy Savage would be the person we're talking about.

Or we'd be talking about Verne and son instead of Vinnie and Shane.

[edgecrusher]

Who WAS Elizabeth in the first place, and did she actually marry Savage? -with a loo brush

[Porn Baron]

Who WAS Elizabeth in the first place, and did she actually marry Savage? -with a loo brush

she was Savage real life wife from 85 untill late 91. she was a looker in her younger days. die early in year cause of drugs and loads of fans are blaming her boyfrined at the time Lex Luger.

[Guest bobba2k2]

I don't even remember feuding with Val Venis so I can't remember anything about it. I doubt it was impressive, though

it wasn't it was almost straight after Mick came back from Rehab for knee surgery. it is mentioned in his book about the falling out between the Rock and Sock Connection when Venis takes Mr. Rocko from the trash can and stuffs him in his tights

[ChrisJ]

I'll have to disagree with this, and say that, had Hogan not gone back to the WWF in 84, Randy Savage would be the person we're talking about.

Or we'd be talking about Verne and son instead of Vinnie and Shane.

Suddenly the push of Shane McMahon doesn't seem SO bad...That WOULD be weird though - would the territories have stayed intact? Would we have had the NWA still promoting 'real wrestling', and not have had the killer angles of WCW in the late 90's? Would Eric Bischoff still have that god-awful smile, and would he ever turn heel and do what he does best?

[bobbins]

Would Eric Bischoff still have that god-awful smile, and would he ever turn heel and do what he does best?

What, mow Verne's lawn? Sorry, too easy.I don't think anything could have stopped the death of the territories, what with the growth of cable TV.

[Terje Rindal]

Yeah, but look at Ricky Steamboat in the WWF - not a good interview, his wrestling skill was what kept him at the level he was at (near-ish the main event) for his spell in the WWF.

True, but it's a huge difference between being near-ish the main events and being a global mega star who re-invented the business.

The charisma thing, I'd disagree with. Hogan, admittedly was stupidly charismatic, but Savage was much closer than you make out to Hogan.

We have to agree to disagree there. I'd say Hogan was miles above Savage in this department. And, even if Savage was as charismatic as Hogan, he didn't have the size that Hogan did, and therefore would never have reached the hights Hogan did.

[Burchill's Buddy]

The charisma thing, I'd disagree with. Hogan, admittedly was stupidly charismatic, but Savage was much closer than you make out to Hogan.

I would agree here, I think both these guys have a similar amount of charisma, just that the fans could relate more to Hogans gimmick better than Savage's.