WWE Double Scum Mafia *GAME OVER*

[Ron Simmons]

Ron, is that vote count for Teedy correct?

It is now!

[spotlightmagnet1]

So basically it comes down to a lynch between Snake and Teedy (if I'm getting that correct) before the festivities over the weekend. My main problem is I've already said I can't see either one of them being scum.

 

I can understand Lion's comments. I haven't been that involved in the game, it's my fault for several silly reasons. But also, the dynamic is a little confusing for me. I'm trying to picture the thoughts and logic behind the IC.

[Jaffa]

So basically it comes down to a lynch between Snake and Teedy (if I'm getting that correct) before the festivities over the weekend. My main problem is I've already said I can't see either one of them being scum.

Hang on, there is only 2 votes in it, so the options are still there. If you don't feel either are scum (and I agree with you that Snake doesn't look likely scum to me right now), where would you like to see the attention? And which of Teedy and Snake would you vote for, if it came down to it?

[Snake Plissken]

I reckon basically it comes down to a lynch between Snake (myself) and Teedy (if I'm getting that correct) before the festivities over the weekend. My main problem is I've already said I can't see either one of them being scum.

 

I can understand Lion's comments. I haven't been that involved in the game, it's my fault for several silly reasons. But also, the dynamic is a little confusing for me. I'm trying to picture the thoughts and logic behind the IC.

 

I also think Teedy is trying to get himself lynched so he can get out of the game.

[Retro Red]

If Teedy was trying to get him lynched I'd ask him to get replaced out rather than lose a potential town player.

 

As it is, I don't think he's doing that he's trying to prove a point because he thinks that because he isn't enjoying the way the games generally go on here (over analysis of small meaningless points) that we should all change and play the way he wants us to. And to try and get it to happen he's going to dance about and draw attention to himself and distract the game. Which is what has happened. I mean after all if 16 people haven't got a problem and 1 does, where does the issue lie?

 

Lynching Snake or Teedy may or may not herald a positive result, but if people aren't sure they'll flip scum then lynching them is a poor idea. We don't get any real information from it, much like the ATG lynch of day one.

 

If it's a town flip, his entire wagon can just say "I voted because he was acting scummy, and he didn't seem to care"

 

If it's a scum flip, then great but those not on his wagon can just say "I didn't vote because I thought it was way too obvious to be scum"

 

Either way, it's a 50/50 flip of a coin with no real compensation if we're wrong in the form of wagon activity information.

[Fatty Facesitter]

I reckon basically it comes down to a lynch between Snake (myself) and Teedy (if I'm getting that correct) before the festivities over the weekend. My main problem is I've already said I can't see either one of them being scum.

 

What do you mean "Them" being scum?

[spotlightmagnet1]

So basically it comes down to a lynch between Snake and Teedy (if I'm getting that correct) before the festivities over the weekend. My main problem is I've already said I can't see either one of them being scum.

Hang on, there is only 2 votes in it, so the options are still there. If you don't feel either are scum (and I agree with you that Snake doesn't look likely scum to me right now), where would you like to see the attention? And which of Teedy and Snake would you vote for, if it came down to it?

 

That is the problem, I started typing this thinking seph, on the basis of his allegations about the Teedy code, however after reading it five times this morning, I can't see how it would help scum. But I still think his reasoning does rely alot on circumstance and incredibly detailed (as Teedy said).

 

I can't seem to keep on one train of thought about people. I have a funny feeling about unfitfinlay, going back very few of his posts (thus far 10 of them) I feel really contribute anything to proceedings other than 'but what do you think?'.

 

However, while looking at unfitfinlay's past posts I notcied something seemingly swept to one side, Snake saying to Nexus 'You know I'm not scum'. So I'm wondering if that has anything more to do with it. For instance, could they both be in the inner circle? Hell, I'm going for it before I change my mind yet again.

 

Vote: Nexus.

[Retro Red]

I reckon basically it comes down to a lynch between Snake (myself) and Teedy (if I'm getting that correct) before the festivities over the weekend. My main problem is I've already said I can't see either one of them being scum.

 

What do you mean "Them" being scum?

 

He's parroting other people's posts now, that's his new thing.

[Chris_Stone]

I get you now Mike. The IC could technically have 3 kills though could they not? If the they did have then they could effectively wipe out a whole scum team and half the other one night 1 if the mafia members of the IC were to give up who the other scummers were

 

The IC scum are still scum. If they out their scum team to anyone it goes against their win condition and they could be modkilled for it.

 

The IC would only have 1 potential kill all to themselves and that's if the Town IC member is a one shot vig. The 2 scum team kills are subject to discussion with the respective teams, and the IC member will have to be careful not to let the scum kill his IC team and direct the kill where he wants them to without dying. I can't see the IC having their own kill to deliver as well because that's 3 scum night kills and with 3 potential vig kills as well we could lose 6 players per night, then 3 on any other night. That would mean we could enter day 4 with only 5 players left which could concievably be game over, and generally mafia games should be set up in a way that town can definitely last until at least night 4.

 

My opinion is that the IC do not know who all the scum are, only their own team. Remember their win con is currently to have all 3 IC survive to the end, but each has a secondary win con which kicks in if one IC member dies. If one of the scum IC members dies, then the town IC member is now just a townie again. He can then out the 2nd scum IC member, and we have one dead scum and one confirmed town player but that's all. The scum IC can't reveal their team to the rest of the IC because once the IC is incomplete then it disappears and they are on opposite sides again.

 

I would make a guess that we don't get to know when an IC member is dead. I think only the IC will be in possession of that knowledge. Otherwise it's impossible for the IC to win.

 

(Example, scum player A dies, doesn't flip IC. Now scum player B knows he isn't the IC so that only leaves scum player C. Scum player C can't betray his IC brethren and admit all to player B because it would be against his win condition, and scum player B can't out player C because they are scum together and it goes against his win condition.) It kind of breaks the game almost immediately, so I'm going with the mindset that IC isn't revealed on flip, only at game end (or if the town IC outs himself after a scum IC dies).

 

We need to move past theory discussion for the moment though, and start working towards deciding the lynch for this day, since it ends on Sunday teatime and things get mighty quiet here on the weekend.

 

My vote is on Mike, and I'm going to stick to my guns this time because I think I'm right.

 

I want to see him flip because I think Mike being lynched is good for the town. I see enough in his play to see scum behaviours.

 

Those who haven't voted yet need to start making noises as to who their top read is. If you don't have enough confidence to vote for someone, then vote for no-lynch so that your opinion is at least registered and not just unknown.

 

I'm 99% sure that the question on whether or not it would be revealed if the person killed was IC would be revealed and that Ron himself said they would. This is the thing, the IC need all 3 players to live otherwise they CANNOT win. This means that as town we don't really want to kill the Town IC member, we want one of the scum IC dead, this would mean the town IC player could out the other scum member, even with a counter claim (and possibly a lynch on the town previous IC player If the scum player is more convincing) that we'd get another scum kill from it. Ideally, the scum will be wanting the town IC player to die, there'd be no issues with scum being outted, they get their members back on their side and gain some information on the opposite scum teams members.

 

When you say you're going to stick to your guns, does this mean that you'd rather see a no lynch than you moving your vote?

[tom]

My vote is currently on Nexus and I'm going to stick to my guns and keep the vote where it is. Just a reminder below of what I said to him in regards to him keeping his vote on Snake; it could well be that he put his vote on Snake originally to try and help push a wagon along [he was first on remember] and he's just been helped now by the fact that people are viewing Snake's actions as scummy; in other words, his task has been made easier by other peoples assessment of Snake :

 

Regardless of if he seems scummy now, when you voted for him, none of that had occurred at that point, so you can't claim you reasoning for voting him in the first place is the same as your reasoning behind keeping the vote on him

 

And then below, spotlight adds another interesting point to look at, as at the time I did think to myself how would Nexus know someone isn't scum but also at the same time how would Snake also know Nexus knew he wasn't. It could be nothing apart from some simple WIFOM but it is somewhat interesting :

 

However, while looking at unfitfinlay's past posts I notcied something seemingly swept to one side, Snake saying to Nexus 'You know I'm not scum'. So I'm wondering if that has anything more to do with it. For instance, could they both be in the inner circle? Hell, I'm going for it before I change my mind yet again.

 

Vote: Nexus.

[tom]

EBWOP : I'm going to be available very little most of the day today and most of the night but possibly around a bit this evening, and then tomorrow is hectic too. To be on the safe side, I'm calling V/LA

[Retro Red]

I get you now Mike. The IC could technically have 3 kills though could they not? If the they did have then they could effectively wipe out a whole scum team and half the other one night 1 if the mafia members of the IC were to give up who the other scummers were

 

The IC scum are still scum. If they out their scum team to anyone it goes against their win condition and they could be modkilled for it.

 

The IC would only have 1 potential kill all to themselves and that's if the Town IC member is a one shot vig. The 2 scum team kills are subject to discussion with the respective teams, and the IC member will have to be careful not to let the scum kill his IC team and direct the kill where he wants them to without dying. I can't see the IC having their own kill to deliver as well because that's 3 scum night kills and with 3 potential vig kills as well we could lose 6 players per night, then 3 on any other night. That would mean we could enter day 4 with only 5 players left which could concievably be game over, and generally mafia games should be set up in a way that town can definitely last until at least night 4.

 

My opinion is that the IC do not know who all the scum are, only their own team. Remember their win con is currently to have all 3 IC survive to the end, but each has a secondary win con which kicks in if one IC member dies. If one of the scum IC members dies, then the town IC member is now just a townie again. He can then out the 2nd scum IC member, and we have one dead scum and one confirmed town player but that's all. The scum IC can't reveal their team to the rest of the IC because once the IC is incomplete then it disappears and they are on opposite sides again.

 

I would make a guess that we don't get to know when an IC member is dead. I think only the IC will be in possession of that knowledge. Otherwise it's impossible for the IC to win.

 

(Example, scum player A dies, doesn't flip IC. Now scum player B knows he isn't the IC so that only leaves scum player C. Scum player C can't betray his IC brethren and admit all to player B because it would be against his win condition, and scum player B can't out player C because they are scum together and it goes against his win condition.) It kind of breaks the game almost immediately, so I'm going with the mindset that IC isn't revealed on flip, only at game end (or if the town IC outs himself after a scum IC dies).

 

We need to move past theory discussion for the moment though, and start working towards deciding the lynch for this day, since it ends on Sunday teatime and things get mighty quiet here on the weekend.

 

My vote is on Mike, and I'm going to stick to my guns this time because I think I'm right.

 

I want to see him flip because I think Mike being lynched is good for the town. I see enough in his play to see scum behaviours.

 

Those who haven't voted yet need to start making noises as to who their top read is. If you don't have enough confidence to vote for someone, then vote for no-lynch so that your opinion is at least registered and not just unknown.

 

I'm 99% sure that the question on whether or not it would be revealed if the person killed was IC would be revealed and that Ron himself said they would. This is the thing, the IC need all 3 players to live otherwise they CANNOT win. This means that as town we don't really want to kill the Town IC member, we want one of the scum IC dead, this would mean the town IC player could out the other scum member, even with a counter claim (and possibly a lynch on the town previous IC player If the scum player is more convincing) that we'd get another scum kill from it. Ideally, the scum will be wanting the town IC player to die, there'd be no issues with scum being outted, they get their members back on their side and gain some information on the opposite scum teams members.

 

When you say you're going to stick to your guns, does this mean that you'd rather see a no lynch than you moving your vote?

 

Nope. My rule is as follows scumread lynch > nullread lynch > no lynch > townread lynch.

 

I want my scum read lynched. I won't oppose a lynch on a null read if it's a town concensus and would add my vote if needed to prevent a no lynch. I will not vote for a town read, in that situation yet I would rather no lynch.

[Chris_Stone]

A no lynch provides no information at all, you don't get to see:

X tried realy hard to lynch this guy and he flipped town.

 

You lose leads, no lynch IS worse for the progression of the game than a lynch on town, yes losing a town player sucks, what sucks worse is not gaining information on day one. We will know little come day 2 if there's a no lynch, except we'll have scum kills / vig kills (well we shouldnt) to go on, but do you think they're going to go for anything other than lurkers if there's no lynch tonight?

[Teedy Kay]

If you think the outlandish ramblings of myself allow a scum read, you do in fact prove the point I'm trying to make.

 

Lynch away folks!

[seph]

That is the problem, I started typing this thinking seph, on the basis of his allegations about the Teedy code, however after reading it five times this morning, I can't see how it would help scum. But I still think his reasoning does rely alot on circumstance and incredibly detailed (as Teedy said).

 

To be fair, it really does. I thought I was onto something with an obviously fake piece of information, and the style of Teedy's play is similar to Snake's in that it's either completely indifferent to the rest of the game or something he'll come back to and break down later in the game- it's successful in that people are biting but the downfall is that it's much easier to get himself whacked for it because of two Scum teams and the IC. I guess i thought too hard on it and gave myself (and others) a brainfuck, but at least Teedy and Bristep got a chuckle and it got people talking again.

 

That said it's exactly the sort of retort Teedy would say to my rantings. Fabulous conjecture and idiotic paranoia got me a Day One hit in PYP and at least Mike, Bri, Chris Stone and at least one other could see what I was trying to do. So, for that reason, Vote Teedy Kay.

 

I'll be NA on Sunday Evening as the Aztecs are playing at home.