David Posted October 3, 2011 Author Share Posted October 3, 2011 Of course theres a gap in earnings and there always will be but it needs to be reletive.Relative to what though?Talent, ability, intelligence, experience, qualifications.A guy with no specialist qualifications driving an electric train for 4 days a week, whilst getting far more holiday than the national average, including bank holidays on top and reduced/free train travel earning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van Dammer Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Of course theres a gap in earnings and there always will be but it needs to be reletive.Relative to what though?Talent, ability, intelligence, experience, qualifications.A guy with no specialist qualifications driving an electric train for 4 days a week, whilst getting far more holiday than the national average, including bank holidays on top and reduced/free train travel earning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted October 3, 2011 Author Share Posted October 3, 2011 You're seriously telling me that the guys who are in charge of operating the underground trains, carrying hundreds of people at any given time through the system aren't worth what a marketing executive earns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van Dammer Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 You're seriously telling me that the guys who are in charge of operating the underground trains, carrying hundreds of people at any given time through the system aren't worth what a marketing executive earns?How much does a marketing executive earn? Do you know what a marketing executive for a major corporation does? How much revenue they generate? How many jobs they create as a result? Do you realise the qualifications they have? The amount of work theyve had to put in to know what they know and to be able to do what they do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted October 3, 2011 Author Share Posted October 3, 2011 You're seriously telling me that the guys who are in charge of operating the underground trains, carrying hundreds of people at any given time through the system aren't worth what a marketing executive earns?How much does a marketing executive earn? Do you know what a marketing executive for a major corporation does? How much revenue they generate? How many jobs they create as a result? Do you realise the qualifications they have? The amount of work theyve had to put in to know what they know and to be able to do what they do?Okay, I'm not going to continue the debate with you, Dammer. We've been through this kind of thing before. The managing director of London Underground is happy with the deal, so hopefully it'll get accepted by the workers and they be able to earn some decent coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 It comes down to how you decide "value". David, you're making a calculation of value that relies on things like "contribution to society" or "number of people helped" and so on. Â Now, I'm not saying that's not a lovely idea, but it's not something that could ever be achieved in a capitalist economy; at least not one like ours. Â Salaries are generally predicated on two factors - the complexity of the job, and the difficulty of finding someone to fill it. Â Training to become a train driver takes two years I believe, and is probably do-able by a wide range of people. Training all the necessary skills to become a top level investment banker takes many more years than that, especially factoring in university which is usually a prerequisite for that sort of thing. It's a lot harder to get good candidates for investment banking, and so the job carries a higher wage. Â Secondly, your wage depends on how important your job is, and how many people are available to do that job. This fluctuates according to the labour market. At times the sort of skills I have carry a high value as companies are desperately looking for someone to fill a post; at other times there's a surfeit of available sound engineers and so you're competing for the same position, which depresses the available wage. Â I think bankers wages are ridiculous - but then the banks make a ridiculous amount of money as they carry a huge amount of risk and know they'll be bailed out by the taxpayer If the fund managers didn't earn the banks considerably more than they are paid, they would be out on their ear. Â The most important thing is to be happy with your job and the lifestyle it pays for. I could have made considerably more money if I'd left university and gone into banking, but it never appealed to me. The job I do have allows me a comfortable life and is incredibly good fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted October 3, 2011 Author Share Posted October 3, 2011 (edited) Training to become a train driver takes two years I believe, and is probably do-able by a wide range of people. Don't discount the pressure of doing such a job. You basically have the health & safety of thousands of people every day in your hands. Â All I'm saying is, if there are investment bankers worth millions per year in earnings, then police, medical and the people who keep our cities operating deserve at least Edited October 3, 2011 by David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynamite Duane Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 (edited) Anyone else been following the occupation of Wall Street? The latest I heard over on Facebook is of donations from JP Morgan to the police and soldiers moving in to protect the protesters! Exciting times indeed Occupy Wall Street Update (youtube) Â Here's a youtube video of a talk I attended a couple of weeks back from Roger Hayes, with an alternative to our present system: Edited October 3, 2011 by Dynamite Duane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van Dammer Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Training to become a train driver takes two years I believe, and is probably do-able by a wide range of people. Don't discount the pressure of doing such a job. You basically have the health & safety of thousands of people every day in your hands. Â All I'm saying is, if there are investment bankers worth millions per year in earnings, then police, medical and the people who keep our cities operating deserve at least Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiffy Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Can you name a system, establishment or area thats currently flourishing? Â That's hardly the point, capitalism is collapsing world wide, you have to look at that and accept that at the very least the implementation of capitalism needs tweaking, if not completely re-writing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WU LYF 4 LYF Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 (edited) "Captialism", "Communism", "Meritocracy" etc etc, these are just names. Nobody designed them and implemented them, they evolved over time slowly. This system will evolve and change, but if anyone thinks there's going to be some huge revolution in financial system, fiscal system, political system or social system they are completely wrong. Capitalism is not 'collapsing', a less sensationalist description would be 'the current economy and especially the credit system is in turmoil'. Capitalism itself, in as much as it exists at all except for as an ambiguous, arguable concept, will live on well into the future. Edited October 4, 2011 by RIP Diva Sunny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiffy Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Hmmm, can't help but think that communism was very much designed and implemented, in russia, in the early part of the last century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted October 4, 2011 Author Share Posted October 4, 2011 "Captialism", "Communism", "Meritocracy" etc etc, these are just names. Nobody designed them and implemented them, they evolved over time slowly. This system will evolve and change, but if anyone thinks there's going to be some huge revolution in financial system, fiscal system, political system or social system they are completely wrong. Capitalism is not 'collapsing', a less sensationalist description would be 'the current economy and especially the credit system is in turmoil'. Capitalism itself, in as much as it exists at all except for as an ambiguous, arguable concept, will live on well into the future. Hmmm, can't help but think that communism was very much designed and implemented, in russia, in the early part of the last century. Your deep, meaningful shite may fly in other threads June, but I doubt it'll work in here. There are too many intelligent posters who frequent this thread for your nonsense to not get seen through. Â Go grab another can of special brew and stare at the sunset for a bit lad, eh? There's a good boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WU LYF 4 LYF Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 (edited) Your deep, meaningful shite may fly in other threads June, but I doubt it'll work in here. There are too many intelligent posters who frequent this thread for your nonsense to not get seen through.  Um, well within the last page alone two people have commended posts I've made in this thread. I said nothing deep and meaningful; on the contrary, I was disagreeing with people who believe our current system was the result of 'deep and meaningful' conception rather than a system that evolved on the basis of convenience and reward.  So be a good boy, and kindly place me on ignore if you don't enjoy my contributions.  Hmmm, can't help but think that communism was very much designed and implemented, in russia, in the early part of the last century.  And it didn't work. Many people still contend whether communism was properly implemented in Russia, or whether they just made changes to the existing system, it is far from unanimous that communist Russia was ever really 'communist', especially in the Marxist meaning of the world. There was still currency, there was still a 'state'. It was a totalitarian regime not a communist one.  Go grab another can of special brew  More of a green tea type of dude, got to look after the health.  There are too many intelligent posters who frequent this thread  Counting you I suppose? Are you the intelligence police? Do we have to take an exam to post in this topic? Everybody's opinion is worth the same in this society, and rightly so. Edited October 4, 2011 by RIP Diva Sunny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiffy Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Hmmm, can't help but think that communism was very much designed and implemented, in russia, in the early part of the last century. Â And it didn't work. Many people still contend whether communism was properly implemented in Russia, or whether they just made changes to the existing system, it is far from unanimous that communist Russia was ever really 'communist', especially in the Marxist meaning of the world. There was still currency, there was still a 'state'. It was a totalitarian regime not a communist one. Â Â I'd tend to agree, it certainly certainly seemed to miss the original point of communism quite spectacularly, and quickly became an oppressive regime that cared less about the ordinary working man than the regime that preceeded it. Nonetheless, the idea that communism wasn't desinged, and implemented (however badly) is kinda rubbish. Â On your earlier point, that we have it far better here than in other countries, and should appreciate that. It's entirely true, and worth bearing in mind. However, while it's helpful to bear it in mind to get you through the day, it's important not to use it to ignore the vast social inequalities and injustices that exist within this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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