General politics discussion thread

[Dingo Warrior]

As an onlooker who doesnt give a shit about this 'argument' between you I have to disagree.

I don't actually know what his argument is. He appeared out of nowhere asking if I was a Muslim, then proceeded to ask some more questions, which I refused to answer, which means he wins the debate. Or something

 

How can you expect me to put forward a constructive argument if i am unable to ascertain as to the reasons for your objection to this program ?

[theaddicane]

I raised concerns about your need to clarify David's religious status which you seem to have ignored. I have not been commenting on this broadcast. We were not debating, as you offered no counter to my queries.

 

I have no idea if he has a point or what to be honest, he's just telling everyone that he's won debates with them.

[ThumpSquids]

I love how these discussions bring out the 'Lawyer-Speak' in people.

[theaddicane]

I don't know why it does, Thump, but you're right.

[WildSybianRider]

Melanie Phillips was amazing. We all want to help destitute, starving people abroad blah blah blah, so lets completely stop helping them in any way.

 

 

Unless it's the poor, defenceless, can't-catch-a-break Israelis.

[Blueknowzit]

Melanie Phillips was amazing. We all want to help destitute, starving people abroad blah blah blah, so lets completely stop helping them in any way.

 

 

Unless it's the poor, defenceless, can't-catch-a-break Israelis.

 

yeah if only the only Jewish state in the world had the common decency to lay down and die in 1948 so the armies of SEVEN arab nations could carry out its intended genocide

[WildSybianRider]

... which is, of course, what I was saying.

[Loki]

Melanie Phillips was amazing. We all want to help destitute, starving people abroad blah blah blah, so lets completely stop helping them in any way.

 

 

Unless it's the poor, defenceless, can't-catch-a-break Israelis.

 

yeah if only the only Jewish state in the world had common decency

 

Too true, my friend, too true.

[Carbomb]

Melanie Phillips was amazing. We all want to help destitute, starving people abroad blah blah blah, so lets completely stop helping them in any way.

 

 

Unless it's the poor, defenceless, can't-catch-a-break Israelis.

 

yeah if only the only Jewish state in the world had the common decency to lay down and die in 1948 so the armies of SEVEN arab nations could carry out its intended genocide

 

Oh yes, those horrible Arabs were completely unprovoked, weren't they? If only they'd just had the common decency to allow themselves be chucked off the land they'd lived on for millennia by a bunch of imperialists who felt guilty about letting millions of Jews die through their own negligence of and apathy towards Nazism.

[Blueknowzit]

Now im not saying that there are not issues with the creation of the state of Israel which is the third autonomous Jewish state in the region , but you cannot say that the refusal of the Arabs to support the partition of the palestine mandate to create the first autonomous palestinian state in the region has helped matters nor has the refusal of Lebanon,Jordan and Syria to grant palestinians citizenship to "preserve palestinian identity"

 

So if arab countries refuse to support a state for palestinians and refuse to absorb the palestinian refugees the only logical conclusion is that its not about right of return or palestinian statehood its about the destruction of the Jewish state and the refugees are a convenient open wound that the Arab states can continue to scratch to pressure and demonise Israel.

 

compare the plight of the 700,000 palestinian refugees with the plight million Jewish refugees forced from Arab countries in 1948, when we are talking about right of return the rights of the jewish refugees and their decendants are not given equal consideration, it is inconceivable that the palestinian refugees now number 4 million without solution, not all of this can be the fault of the Jooos can it?

[Carbomb]

Now im not saying that there are not issues with the creation of the state of Israel which is the third autonomous Jewish state in the region , but you cannot say that the refusal of the Arabs to support the partition of the palestine mandate to create the first autonomous palestinian state in the region has helped matters nor has the refusal of Lebanon,Jordan and Syria to grant palestinians citizenship to "preserve palestinian identity"

 

So if arab countries refuse to support a state for palestinians and refuse to absorb the palestinian refugees the only logical conclusion is that its not about right of return or palestinian statehood its about the destruction of the Jewish state and the refugees are a convenient open wound that the Arab states can continue to scratch to pressure and demonise Israel.

 

compare the plight of the 700,000 palestinian refugees with the plight million Jewish refugees forced from Arab countries in 1948, when we are talking about right of return the rights of the jewish refugees and their decendants are not given equal consideration, it is inconceivable that the palestinian refugees now number 4 million without solution, not all of this can be the fault of the Jooos can it?

 

The problems with the Arabs didn't occur from them suddenly waking up one day and deciding to murder every Jew in Israel - the whole thing was handled badly by an arrogant British empire, who decided to just swan in, chuck people off their land and hand it to people without any care to try and make it a gradual and integrating process. What's not commonly told is how, prior to 1948, Jews, Muslims and Christians originally living in the region had lived in pretty harmonious conditions.

 

The blame can't be entirely borne by the British Empire, of course: the Arab nations surrounding Palestine didn't exactly cover themselves with glory, only championing the Palestinians' cause when it suited them, but never doing anything to actually help in any valuable way. It's not surprising, of course - most of them wanted to keep themselves "in" with the US.

 

But by the same token, while we're apportioning blame here, it's completely fallacious to claim that Israel have been a completely innocent, or at least fairly provoked, party in all this. From the atrocities committed by the Stern Gang, to the massacres at Sabra & Shatila, to the deliberate bombing of the USS Liberty, to the illegal settlements, to the partitioning wall (an act which the Soviets were demonised for in Berlin), Israel bears its own substantial share of the blame for the continuation of the situation. The government bangs on about how Israeli Arabs have the highest standard of living of any Arabs in the Middle East, yet conveniently forgets to mention that Israeli laws are designed inherently to effectively make non-Jews second-class citizens.

 

Let's not ignore the hypocrisy of both Israel and the major Western nations when the Palestinians democratically elected Hamas to government. For a bunch of people who supposedly go on about democracy, they were pretty much the bully boys in this situation, refusing to recognise the Palestinians' choice; sure, Hamas are a terrorist organisation, but they were elected, something that the US and the UK supposedly hold more sacred than anything else. What's even more laughable is that they behaved as if it was completely unreasonable behaviour by the Palestinians, as if these people hadn't been driven into the arms of extremists by frequent and unfailing betrayal on their part when it came to the peace process.

 

The anger and outrage of the Palestinians is not unjustified, and if people ignore the kind of brutality that drives people to such desperation that they think becoming a suicide bomber is the only way to have any chance of affecting their family or community's situation, it's playing right into the hands of Zionism.

 

Also, as a side note, I believe the figure of 700,000 is a matter of some dispute, so I won't take that as gospel, and either way, it shouldn't matter, for the most part - in the words of Captain Picard, how many people should it be before it "becomes wrong"?

 

EDIT: I've just realised that I forgot to include the main point of this post (great going, CB), which is that, even with all this history behind it, your original point was irrelevant: Israel's behaviour right now is objectionable, and, to back up WildSybianRider and bobbins, the point is that, if it were any other nation that the West disliked, they'd be sanctioned or even invaded quicker than you can say "regime change".

Edited May 20, 2011 by Carbomb

[Blueknowzit]

There

[Carbomb]

Firstly, I don't recognise the "greater spiritual ties" that the Jews have to the region. That entire point hinges on whether you're religious or not, and therefore, in terms of real world politics, that point is immaterial. What is material is that there were people physically living in that region, Jewish, Muslim and Christian, with land, homes, livelihoods, families, and ways of life, and they were chucked off it in favour of a group of people who, if we are to believe that Jews are a single, unified race (and given their own recognition of the Ashkhenaze and Sephardi divide, I can't say I do), have not lived there for millennia. The world largely runs on secular politics, and for very good reason: the Jews believe they're the chosen people of God, so do the Christians and so do the Muslims, so they all believe in the superiority of their spiritual superiority. There's no earthly way to test who's right, so the only way to decide this is through the laws, politics and recorded history of humankind - pretty much every established state recognises this, and therefore to try and push religious reasons as justification for such behaviour is arrogant.

 

I don't dispute that Jews should have a place they can live in peace without fear, but to do so at the expense of other people is just as wrong. That's Zionism, and I have no truck with it, especially when said group of people have suffered so much throughout history that they should know better. To inflict the kind of suffering on others that they've experienced themselves, especially on a group of people who have traditionally peacefully co-existed with them, is grotesque.

 

Yes, Hamas are an abhorrent group. I don't believe I've said otherwise. The points you've raised don't detract from my argument: they were democratically elected by the Palestinians, and why? Because Hamas are, in the wake of Fatah toothlessness and numerous betrayals by the international community, the only group to have promised to do anything about Palestinian suffering. They're an extremist group, taking advantage of human suffering beyond endurance by promising them an easy solution, which largely involves attacking and killing another ethnic group. Sound familiar?

 

And yes, the wall is a symptom of Arab aggression, but what is the cause of the aggression? I hope you're not going to claim it's completely without foundation. Again, as I said before, it's not like the Palestinians suddenly experienced mass psychosis, inducing them into murderous anti-Semitism. They've got valid grievances, and the more the Israeli government ignores these grievances and refuses to properly negotiate (and I don't buy for a minute that it's not possible - Rabin was on the verge of a breakthrough before he was murdered), the more these grievances will pile up, causing more resentment and violence, which will in turn cause the same on the Israeli side, and we get a continuation of the tit-for-tat escalation that we've all been seeing for years and have gotten sick of.

 

Ultimately, it comes down to one thing: situations like this require one side to be the peacemaker, and the Palestinians are not in a position to be that, not while they're sifting through the rubble of their homes. Israel has also suffered much, but they're largely prosperous and have a much higher standard of living; they can afford to be the "bigger person". Also, and I don't think this is insignificant, I haven't heard of any illegal Palestinian settlements which their government refuse to deal with.

[Blueknowzit]

Through the laws politics and recorded history of humankind a political plan for the Palestinian mandate was advanced accepted by one side rejected by another.

 

Hamas were "democratically elected: in 2006 how many free elections have taken place since then? 0. is it possible that the will of the people could have changed in 5 years? Hamas might have been the only party to promise to end palastinian suffering but have actually contributed to more suffering.

 

Palestinians have greivences so what, sitting their sulking like a 5 year old about them whilst plotting death to Israel has got them fuck all. Israel has to be the one to make concessions without pre conditions whilst it still comes under attack, whilst those around it plot its distruction and refuses to recognise it as a legitimate state.

 

The poor Palestinians can do nothing though can they? how about a joint statement by the fatah/hamas coalition stating that not only will they agree to recognise the state of Israel and respect is borders they will with the assistance of the international community and their Jewish neighbours establish a Palestinian state alongside Israel with peace and security for all.

 

Its almost too easy and would cost them nothing.

[Carbomb]

Through the laws politics and recorded history of humankind a political plan for the Palestinian mandate was advanced accepted by one side rejected by another.

 

That's kind of the point of diplomacy. If one side don't accept it, it's not going to work; just because the Israelis liked it doesn't means the Palestinians had to.

 

Hamas were "democratically elected: in 2006 how many free elections have taken place since then? 0. is it possible that the will of the people could have changed in 5 years? Hamas might have been the only party to promise to end palastinian suffering but have actually contributed to more suffering.

 

Again: I'm not saying Hamas aren't an objectionable organisation. That's not the point of what I'm saying, which is that the actions of the Israeli government have driven the Palestinians into the arms of Hamas because they're promising a solution to their plight, whether it's true or not. The Nazis offered a "solution" to the people of Germany - didn't make it true, did it?

 

Palestinians have greivences so what, sitting their sulking like a 5 year old about them whilst plotting death to Israel has got them fuck all. Israel has to be the one to make concessions without pre conditions whilst it still comes under attack, whilst those around it plot its distruction and refuses to recognise it as a legitimate state.

 

Yes, I'm sure "sulking like a 5 year-old" is a perfectly apt analogy for a group of people who've been kicked off their land, had their homes demolished, had members of their families killed and who are treated like second-class citizens.

 

And yes - Israel IS the one who has to make concessions, because they're the one with all the weapons, all the finances and all the power. Let's not forget, also, that it's their actions that have led to all this in the first place.

 

The poor Palestinians can do nothing though can they? how about a joint statement by the fatah/hamas coalition stating that not only will they agree to recognise the state of Israel and respect is borders they will with the assistance of the international community and their Jewish neighbours establish a Palestinian state alongside Israel with peace and security for all.

 

Maybe, or maybe the Israelis could actually show they can be trusted to deal fairly, without the US sticking its oar in, by removing the illegal settlements which breach an agreement they themselves made. Why should the Palestinians show any measure of faith while Israel's doing that?

 

Yes, the Palestinians are attacking the Israelis, and this must stop, but as long as those settlements are in place, Hamas and Hezbollah will always have an excuse to play upon Palestinian sentiments and stir resentment.

 

Its almost too easy and would cost them nothing.

 

Again: just how willing do you think you'd be to make such a gesture if you and yours had been reduced to such destitution? I agree that logically, it should be one of the ways in which peace can be achieved, but if they won't do it, does that mean Israel should just fold its arms and stubbornly refuse to do anything either? And you want to talk about sulking 5 year-olds?

 

Someone needs to take the first step, and Israel has the most power to do so. And for all intents and purposes, they are the invaders of that land, so the onus is on them to make reparations, quite frankly.