Supremo

Fuck Sting. Someone should just call Goldberg, go with Wrestlemania streak vs. Greatest streak in wrestling history.

Otherwise, this is the least exciting Wrestlemania line-up in years and years. There's nothing that feels like anything more than a RAW or Smackdown main event.

I hope Sean Waltman and Scott Hall come to see me get inducted. They're probably crying into their spliffs right now.

Deciding that there's a chance it won't work and so therefore never doing at all is a hundred times worse than giving it a genuine go and then every now and then failing. "It's hard to do, and I might not succeed, so I won't try at all," is hardly a mind set that's going to create changes or progress. If you want Nexus to be stars then fucking push them as such, properly.

But they don't have the ability to back up such a push. No-one does. I'm not saying that's not the fault of WWE, it's their development system that should get these guys ready after all, but you can surely see why they don't push these new guys to the moon, because none of them can back it up. Since Orton, Batista and Cena, how many guys who've got that level of ability have come through? Hardly any. They've got guys who can talk but not work well enough, guys who can talk well and work well but don't look great, etc.

I was going to agree with you at first, their flawed developmental system is definitely a huge problem that's only going to get worse before it gets better, but then I gave it a moment's thought and decided otherwise. Sure, there's a high percentage of guys on NXT and in FCW that are the same generic big man who can neither cut much of a promo or hold their own in a singles match, but what about the generation that came just before them? Why hasn't WWE properly pushed any of them? I'm talking about guys like Evan Bourne, The Miz, Kofi Kingston and CM Punk. Granted, Kofi's a bit of a clumsy tit, but otherwise I don't see any reason why they haven't given any of those guys a fair crack at the whip, particularly when all of them have done brilliantly when given one of those fake pushes. The Miz was ready over a year ago, and that Cena feud had the chance to make a superstar out of him, but they decided against it and held his push off for ages, during which time we've been having the same guys having the same matches on top, with buyrates going lower than we've seen in a decade. Bourne on the other hand continues to shine whenever they push him, with a unique enough style and look that he could become RAW's answer to Rey Mysterio. It's just a shame that they seemingly fluctuate between pushing him and burying him literally by the week. Look at Kofi, too. During that feud with Orton they could've definitely pulled the trigger and made something of him. Remember that incredible reaction he got when he leg dropped Randy at Madison Square Garden? And then what? They just dropped it out of nowhere and he's a complete nobody now. And don't get me started on CM Punk. His feud with Jeff Hardy was one of their best in years, he was producing the goods by the bucketload, and then he suddenly got demoted for reasons other than his performances, his talent, and his potential. It's bullshit to say they don't have anyone to make a star out of. They have loads.

Shaemus is about the best guy to come through in the last 5 years and they've pushed him to the moon. He's still not that over.

They haven't pushed him to the moon, it just seems like they have because they've given him more of a push than they've given anyone in ages. It's still not a proper push, though, and that's why he's not over. He's won his first World Title because John Cena slipped onto a table and he won his second World Title by stealing a pin in a multi-man match. Plus, who can forget

A star is a star is a star. You know, someone who can sell tickets, generate buys and garner publicity at the top of your card. A money player.

Sorry, I understand the general definition, it's just names like Sonnen and Machida confuse the issue. Those guys are over because of what they've done in the ring.

No they're not. Machida's a star because of the Countdown special they put together before his fight with Rashad and Sonnen's a star because of the Countdown special and internet campaign they put together before his fight with Anderson, combined with his incredible mic work at conventions, press conferences and in interviews. Before those Countdown shows both guys were just random blokes on the undercard who could never finish fights. You say these guys looked impressive against Okami or whatever, but if I can't even remember those fights then there's not a chance in hell that the UFC's casual pay per view buyer can. That's what we're playing with here. It's not about the hardcore fans who know about guys from their MMA debut onwards, it's about those 600,000 or so people who buy or don't buy on a show to show basis, allowing for that huge fluctuation in buys depending on how each show is promoted. Guys can have incredible records, full of incredible performances, but until the UFC makes a star out of them then they may as well be Gabe Ruediger because none of those casual fans are going to know who they are and they aren't going to make a single bit of difference to business. It's all about how the UFC makes them a star.

You mention Rashad vs. Rampage. That sold of the back of the awesome exchanges on the Ultimate Fighter. UFC are putting real guys in real fights and letting real tension sell it. They aren't making it all up.

They're still editing things and selecting story line threads that will increase marketability and result in maximum interest in both the fighters and their fights. And if anything, I'd say rummaging through three months of footage to find moments you can edit to tell your stories is a hundred times harder than being able to script them entirely.

Also, when you talk about selling tickets, you're on dodgy ground. UFC sells out shows like the WWF and WCW did in 1998. They didn't normally need to anounce a card.

Completely untrue. Thanks to the way in which they refuse to lower their high ticket prices no matter what, it's actually the complete opposite of that, with cards, in particular main events, playing a massive part in whether a show sells out of not, with many of them not doing so for that very reason. For instance, I just checked and I can still get five very good seats for UFC 119, which is only a week away.

The WWE are taking guys who have little experience, average ability and a good look and trying to convince people that they are great. The UFC are taking people who have proved that they have a really high skill level and are trying to convince people that they are great. Surely you can see the massive difference?

There's a difference though in that the skill level required to be a star in pro-wrestling is the percieved skill level, created by the bookers. John Cena isn't a particularly good worker, but he's booked as a world beater in their portrayed reality and so accordingly he's accepted as such by the fans. If guys are good at promos, but not particularly good at having twenty five minute matches, then you hide their weaknesses and put them in shorter, more exciting matches. Goldberg's the case in point. He couldn't work WWE style, and witnessing him having a 30 minute bout with Triple H was painful to watch, but that doesn't mean he couldn't be a star. He was one of the biggest of the decade. Fuck, you could take one of those Nexus guys, pick the worst one out of the lot, one who can neither cut a promo or work, and you could still make a star out of him if you played it correctly. You give him a manager and you have him beat guys quickly and with ease. Any other talent they have, such as the talent Daniel Bryan has, is just a bonus in terms of what you have to work with. But instead of making a star out of him they book him to lose something like ten matches in a row, whilst the announcers bury him for a laugh.

If The Rock and Stone Cold came round today then they'd first be introduced in NXT challenges that made them look like twats, then they'd be forced to spend a decade feuding over the Intercontinental Title in opening matches on Smackdown, then they'd be given a push for about a month, then it'd be pulled out from under them, rinse and repeat.

You mean The Rock and Stone Cold who's initial pushes absolutely fucking bombed?

At least they got the push in the first place! And then when they both initially failed at least the company had the patience to give them another shot with new characters and ideas. That would never happen in this day and age. They'd either get one of those fake pushes that lasts a month, or if they actually managed to get over then they'd have their legs cut out from under them just before they brock through. I dunno, maybe Shane McMahon could beat them up or something. Or they could be booked to run around the arena like a fucking girl.

You can handpick the super charismatic guy, you can single out the incredibly likable or hatable bloke who'll connect on a certain level with the fans, you can have all your criteria checked and alligned before puling the trigger.

When has that ever actually worked? How many sure fire hits have gone absolutely nowhere. The criteria specifying who catches on in pro-wrestling is nothing like that simple.

I never said it was a guarunteed method of creating a star, but it's got a much higher ratio of success than what they're currently doing to make stars, which amasses to fuck all. If you pick a guy with charisma and talent, give him a genuine, proper push and it doesn't work, then at least you tried. But how many times have they actually done that? And I'm not talking about those half arse, fake pushes, I'm talking a proper push. It happens far too rarely. Deciding that there's a chance it won't work and so therefore never doing at all is a hundred times worse than giving it a genuine go and then every now and then failing. "It's hard to do, and I might not succeed, so I won't try at all," is hardly a mind set that's going to create changes or progress. If you want Nexus to be stars then fucking push them as such, properly.

It raises their profile, sure, but it doesn't make them a star.

What counts as a star though? You mention Machida, Rashad and Sonnen. I wouldn't class any as a star on the level of GSP, Silva, Couture, etc.

A star is a star is a star. You know, someone who can sell tickets, generate buys and garner publicity at the top of your card. A money player. Sure, somebody like GSP is on a level above most people not called Brock Lesnar in terms of drawing ability and popularity, but otherwise I'd say the other five guys you mentioned are at the very least on par with one another. They're all stars. You could main event with them and do an above average to very good buy rate depending on their opponent and the story you're telling. In fact, if recent numbers are anything to go by then both Machida and Rashad have at the very least surprassed Randy in terms of drawing ability. Machida's coming off a PPV bout with Shogun that did a very impressive 520,000 buys, while Rashad just did over a million with Rampage! Randy's not done anything close to that in ages. Even when everyone expected Rashad to bomb on PPV main eventing against Thiago Silva in January it still did a surprisingly high number, which Couture didn't manage to match the following month against Mark Coleman.

I guess it's an intangible thing in some ways, but if you've followed either business for any length of time then it's really easy to sense when somebody is either becoming or has become a star in a single, solitary moment. Brock Lesnar wiping Hulk Hogan's blood on his chest. Dave Batista giving Triple H the thumbs down. In UFC that recent Chris Leben fight with Akiyama is the perfect example. Coming out of that fight there was no question about it, after threatening to do it for years Chris Leben had finally made himself a star. Granted, you probably couldn't headline with him just yet, unless the production team do a really good job the next time he's got a fight upcoming, but he's well on his way. That's a point as well; in the UFC there's levels of stardom. You can recognise guys who're coming up, or are on the cusp of becoming a star. In WWE you're either John Cena and company, or you're a chump. There's no middle ground where guys are warming up and building momentum.

Those UFC previews are incredible and you're right, they make everything and everyone seem a level above what they are but if you can take a guy and make him a big deal in an hour, then he was a pretty big deal anyway. They don't take someone that no-one has heard of and make him a star in 6 months.

Yes they do. In fact; I'll give you two people they've done it with in the past six months; Shane Carwin and Chael Sonnen. Sure, they'd been on previous shows, perhaps even putting in good performances, but from a stardom standpoint nobody bar the hardcore fans had a fucking clue who either guy was because sans having forgettable fights in the middle of cards they hadn't been focussed on at all. Hell, I'm a huge MMA fan and until Chael beat Nate Marquardt in February I don't think I'd have even been able to pick him out a line-up. And even after he was announced as facing Anderson next, I still wasn't that familiar with him, and yet by the time that fight rolled around he was fucking massive and probably my favourite character and promo in all of MMA and pro-wrestling. He's pretty much my hero at this point. He's amazing. Shane Carwin's the same. He'd beaten loads of guys in prelims, but it was only leading into the Frank Mir fight in March that he really appeared on my radar properly, thanks to them starting to focus on him in highlight reels and Countdown specials, and then he became a fully fledged star by the time his fight with Brock came up. Having a couple of casual fans for friends really hammers this home too. Two weeks before that Chael Sonnen vs. Anderson Silva fight my friends weren't even sure if they wanted to come round and watch it. "Who's he?" they asked when I told them Anderson's opponent. Come fight time though everyone was buzzing thanks to the way in which the UFC, with help from Chael's incredible mic work, made him a star.

There is a hell of a lot goes into an MMA career before you even hit the UFC. Just being on the card means you are deserving and legitimate. The starting point is way higher.

All being on the card earlier in your career really does is allow the UFC to collect footage of you looking good in order to eventually use it, should you become a main eventer. There's absolutely no reason why the WWE couldn't do the same. Shane Carwin became a star because they showed clips of all those prelim fights he had where he knocked the shit out of everyone. What would stop WWE from doing the same and introducing someone as an incredibly talented fighter who destroys everyone in seconds, showing clips of him from FCW? There's nothing whatsoever to stop them from doing it, but they don't, they bring the talented guys in and go out of their way to make sure the fans think they're losers.

NXT every Tuesday night pretty much highlights everything that's wrong with pro-wrestling and how they handle new guys and fail to make stars. It's absolute gash.

Tiger Rick is spot on in what he's saying. Another thing is that to the casual audience alot of it is who wins is who's the best, because of UFC's "these lads are real" type audience. So an impressive performance is out of UFC's hands. If a boring cunt with pasty skin called Clive got a shot at Brock Lesnar and knocked him out, he's a star. If a boring cunt with a hairy chest and tight little shorts beat John Cena, I'm rolling my eyes and seeing whats happening on Eastenders.

No he's not, as I've already explained using Frankie Edgar as an example. If all it took to become a star in the UFC was to beat another star then Frankie Edgar would be huge right now. BJ Penn is one of the UFC's biggest stars and biggest draws. He's just lost twice to Frankie Edgar. So, is Frankie a star now? No he's not. People still don't give a shit about him and it's almost cruel to watch press conferences where everyone pretty much ignores him, despite the fact that he's the champion. Nobody talks about how good Frankie is, they talk about what's happened to BJ to make him less invincible. Sure, to make Edgar a star they can now create a Countdown special that emphasises what an achievement it is to beat BJ Penn, and how talented and awesome he must be to have done it twice, with talking heads and highlight packages putting him over, but then that's no different to what WWE could do to make their own star. Put someone over John Cena clean, then harp on about it and make him a huge deal like when Triple H beat Cactus Jack. But they don't do that. They haven't done that in years. They have guys doing obstacle courses, falling over and looking like knobheads.

In wrestling, if you sacrifice Cena, Orton and Undertaker this month to Swagger, Daniel Bryan and Wade Barrett, who's selling next month's PPV?

Stars losing doesn't automatically stop them from being a star themselves. In fact, almost every historical example proves otherwise. You honestly believe that if John Cena lost clean to Wade Barrett on an upcoming pay per view that his stock would fall dramatically and he wouldn't draw the following month? Seriously? All it would do is raise Barret's stock ten fold, make a new star if they did it right and built on it correctly, giving John Cena and company a fresh guy to work with in the upcoming months and years.

Or, we can have Randy Orton vs. John Cena again. And again.

Fuck, in recent months it's been a bonus for the UFC if the guys they needed to make a star out of could even speak English! And you're telling me it's easier for them? Bollocks.

What do you think the WWE got wrong with the Vladimir Kozlov push, out of interest? If it's that easy to make a star in wrestling, why didn't the big hard Russian fella who beat everyone for six months become one?

Kozlov's push, like The Great Khali's push that came before it, was an example of one of two things. Either they're so stupid that they can't see beyond how tall somebody is and will simply push guys based on that, despite the fact that he's destined to fail for every other reason under the sun. Or, the option which I think is more believable is that those in power who don't want to see any long term changes on the top of the card handpick guys that they know won't succeed, give them the ball safe in the knowledge that it won't work, then use these instances as examples as to why guys who could make it aren't give the chance. I mean, fucking hell, think of all the guys who could've pinned The Undertaker clean since 2001. And the only one they let do it was the Great Khali. It's fucking retarded. These clumsy goofs who've got nothing going for them are given pushes, whilst guys who could actually make something of themselves are stuck in comedy segments and shitty three minute matches at the top of the first hour. That's what it boils down to; if we're honest, it's not WWE inability to make stars that's the problem, it's that they simply don't want to do it. They fuck with pushes, stop and start, only giving guys who'll never make it the chance to. You almost never see a guy who could make it being given the true chance to achieve his potential. It's always one or the other. And then by the time they do want to it it's way, way too late and that guy's already been pigeon holed as a chump who's done nothing for the past five years.

If The Rock and Stone Cold came round today then they'd first be introduced in NXT challenges that made them look like twats, then they'd be forced to spend a decade feuding over the Intercontinental Title in opening matches on Smackdown, then they'd be given a push for about a month, then it'd be pulled out from under them, rinse and repeat.

UFC is red hot right now. They have the pick of the best athletes after pro-football, a position Wrestling used to be in. They have a massive fanbase who will purchase PPV's regardless of the content and a big casual audience who will buy the big shows. Making stars is easy in a real sport. if you beat the other guys, you are the star. There's no difference between Joe Rogan telling us Paul Daley (or whoever) is the next big thing and Jerry Lawler telling us John Morrison (or whoever) is the next big thing. In theory. In reality, Rogan is legit, the sport is legit and Daley's record is legit. It's way easier. Anderson Silva is a massive star because he's a brilliant fighter. He doesn't even speak the lingo. In pro-wrestling, you will never get a guy like that over.

You're completely wrong here, giving the guys in the UFC nowhere near the credit they deserve for their TV product that surrounds the fights. It's not that easy at all and simply winning fights or having an impressive record doesn't make anyone a star in UFC or MMA in general. It raises their profile, sure, but it doesn't make them a star. There's a shit load of examples of this. Lyoto Machida, for example, was beating people left, right and centre, but the majority of the fans thought he was a boring goon until that one Countdown special when they portrayed him as the Karate Kid, with his dad playing the part of Mr. Miyagi. Next night he was a megastar. Same goes for Rashad Evans. He had a fantastic record, he'd just beaten Chuck Liddell, the biggest star in the sport, then Forrest Griffin for the Light Heavyweight Title, but he still wasn't a true, genuine star until almost a year later when they built a season of the Ultimate Fighter around him and Rampage, fleshing out his character and getting him over. Chael Sonnen's another guy. He kept climbing his way up the ladder, he even got as far as getting a title shot against Anderson Silva, and yet none of my casual fan friends even knew who the fuck he was until a couple of weeks before that fight when the UFC did that brilliant, "He's the most interesting man on the planet," internet campaign, coupled with that month's Countdown Special. He went from almost completely unknown to one of the most famous men in the sport. Sure, his mic skills certainly helped, but in the space of about two weeks they managed to make Chael into more of a star than WWE had made anyone into in years and years. Similarly, Frankie Edgar has beaten BJ Penn twice now, and yet he's not a star yet and he won't be a star until UFC's production team manage to create a character or an angle for their promotional machine to go with in order to truly get him over with the masses. Just winning fights doesn't cut it one bit.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Making stars in legit sports isn't easier than in scripted ones at all. In scripted sports you get to pick who you want to make a star out of. You can handpick the super charismatic guy, you can single out the incredibly likable or hatable bloke who'll connect on a certain level with the fans, you can have all your criteria checked and alligned before puling the trigger. You can't do any of that in a legit sport. You get what you're given. I mean, Christ, who'd have wanted to be left with the task of making Machida a star?. He was a boring fighter with a boring style who had absolutely nothing of interest to say. He was the worst candidate possible. And yet in the WWE you've got a guy like Daniel Bryan, who'd be easy to make a star out of in comparison, yet they go out of their way to make him look stupid and book him to constantly lose.

Fuck, in recent months it's been a bonus for the UFC if the guys they needed to make a star out of could even speak English! And you're telling me it's easier for them? Bollocks.

It'll be interesting to see whther the popularity of the UFC drops. I'm absolutely sure that if they were a pro-wrestling company, the fact that their PPV's are identical in terms of the theme, the format, the commentary, etc would be criticised as being the same old formula. Main Events like ones Anderson Silva had prior to his last outing would go down like a fart in a lift. And can you imagine the reaction to a headliner as dominant as George St. Pierre? "Spoiler: St. Pierre wins."

Again, Anderson Silva's recent performances and super dominant champions like GSP are just another two examples of how it's much harder to promote fights and make stars in MMA. You get into situations like this, where either the guy takes the piss in his fights like Anderson has done, or you get a guy nobody can beat like GSP, and from that point forward you have to get creative in how you manage to continue selling their fights in order to make money. These aren't problems in a scripted sport. You'll never get a guy purposely having a bad performance, and if somebody's been on top too long then you can script him to lose the belt. You can't do either in MMA. You have to accept what's happened and do your best to turn it into a postive. In Anderson's case they cleverly made his bad performances part of the storyline, with Chael constantly talking about how he was going to force Anderson to finally step up and have a proper fight, and in the case of St. Pierre they've gone out of their way to constantly make new stars for him to face, in order to keep his fights fresh. Dan Hardy was a nobody and everyone knew he didn't have a chance. But then they did a Prime Time special on him and made him into a star who people genuinely believed could win. That shot of him cackling with Matt Serra like a pair of Batman villains who had the secret formular for beating GSP? Fucking incredible, and at least two hundred thousand buys right there. Seriously, when that fight eventually happened one of my mates was genuinely gutted when St. Pierre mauled Dan Hardy. He honestly thought that Hardy had a chance! That's how good that Prime Time series was at convincing people that Hardy was a worthy contender and that's just another example of how the UFC is light years ahead in knowing how to create interest and build stars.

Now watch on Wednesday, when they do it all over again with Josh Koscheck. They've got an unbeatable champion in George St. Pierre, everyone pretty much knows at this point that bar a fluke there's a very good chance he's going to eventually retire as the champion, it should result in people getting bored with him and his fights, and yet I bet my bollocks that after this season of the Ultimate Fighter people will be super excited for that fight. The fact that it's going to be in Montreal already gives me goosebumps. It's going to be utterly amazing.

I can't remember the last time I was that excited about pro-wrestling. Actually, to bring it full circle; it was probably when I was tricked into caring about Randy Orton for seven days. Before Shane McMahon beat him up, along with any passion I had left for their product.

If Vinny Mac was scripting UFC then Brock Lesnar as we know him now would've been jobbed out to someone like Heath Herring and Chael Sonnen, far from becoming a massive star thanks to his talents on the microphone, would've been punished for being better than they wanted him to be, and probably booked to look like a tit on NXT.

Isn't Brock Lesnar the most stupid example you could possibly use to make that point, considering he was pushed as an unstoppable monster pretty much from his debut and for the entire two years he was in WWE? Wrestling wasn't a shoot in 2002 either, like.

Not really, no. My point was that in the past two to three years the UFC has made a tonne of new stars that they can healine pay per views with, primarilly because the shoot aspect of their product all but forces them to. If somebody goes on a winning streak, or somebody boring like Rashad Evans or Lyoto Machida happens to secure a title, they're practically left with no alternative but to invent and create ways in which to portray them as a star and make money out of them. Things naturally progress like in any sport, with guys surpassing what's came before them and taking the slots once held by guys who're now past it.

WWE on the other hand doesn't have that type of motivation to keep making new stars, they can pick and choose whoever they want whenever they want, and as such they choose no-one whatsoever. Nothing progresses, nothing gets refreshed, everyone stays in the same slot forever. My point wasn't that Vince McMahon wouldn't notice Brock Lesnar's potential, it's that since they pushed Brock in 2002 and then I guess Cena and Batista in 2005, there's been absolutely no new main event stars worth getting genuinely excited about. Three in a decade. Fucking hell. UFC usually creates the same amount in about six months. They allow people to make stars out of themselves and then work with what they have. WWE does everything in their power to stop people becoming stars and works directly against everything they have. It's absolutely retarded. Chris Leben's had the personality of a star for almost five years, but unfortunately for the UFC it wasn't until recently that he's put enough wins together that they can start focussing on him and putting him in featured fights. WWE doesn't have that problem, they pick whoerver they want, hopefully the most talented guys or those with the most potential, give them the win streak required and then push them concurrently. They don't, though. They pick the most talented or guys with the most potential and do everything in their power to make them look like twats on NXT, just so they can chuckle backstage. Meanwhile their roster, particularly on top, is the most stale pile of shit known to man. Even Shaumus and Nexus, who're the supposed, "new stars," still can't catch a break and aren't pushed anywhere near the level they could and should be. They booked Nexus to lose at Summerslam, for fuck's sake. It was mind blowing.

Sure, if Brock was just getting into the WWE today there's still a chance, given his size and athleticism, that Vince would give him the same monster push he did back then. But if he did, it'd be a huge rarity in today's climate and that's the problem. New stars coming through should be the norm and they should come in all shapes and sizes. They shouldn't happen about once every five years and always feature identical gigantic guys. That's when it becomes a boring pile of wank.

The Orton push/burial of early 2009 typified this trend better than any other single thing I can think of. A character and angle that really did have that feel of Austin in early 97 all over it, thrown away because of the insistence that every big PPV these days has to have a 'happy ending', regardless of whether it actually makes the fans happy or not (regardez the blank faces in the picture). It's ironic that the man who proved a heel can go over at Wrestlemania and still make the company shitloads of money in the aftermath refused to acknowledge that by putting over the most promising heel to come along since him nearly a full decade later.

Do you seriously think that the problem with that match was the result?

 

Oh, it was a shit match, but yeah, in the context of this thread the result is all that matters. Austin/Michaels at Wrestlemania 14 was pretty shit considering the hype, but all that anyone remembers is the cool ending, Tyson twatting Michaels and Austin getting the torch passed to him.

Orton's potential had already fizzled out weeks before his Mania bout with Triple H though. Neither the quality of that match, nor the result, could've salvaged him by that point.

That's the real point of reference that's required when discussing Orton's botched push. Right there and then was the last time I was ever duped into being excited about professional wrestling. I allowed myself to think they were actually going to make something out of Randy, I genuinely believed he was set to be the next Stone Cold, and then in twenty seconds everything turned to shit and I haven't cared about anything they've done since. Even when Nexus tore shit up, deep down inside I knew they'd eventually fuck it, which they did.

Here's the deal. If the UFC was scripted, and the people in charge of it had the same mentality of those in WWE, then Tim fucking Sylvia would still be the World Heavyweight Champion, Matt Hughes would still be Welterweight Champion, Rich Franklin would be still Middleweight Champ and Tito Ortiz would still be Light Heavyweight Champion. But luckilly, because it's a shoot, other guys have won those belts and the UFC has been forced to make stars out of them. That's the greatest discrepancy of the two, and why I've all but given up on professional wrestling these days. The fact that it's scripted means they will always stop anyone new from ever getting over, meaning they'll never be any new stars, and everything will forever stay the same. If Vinny Mac was scripting UFC then Brock Lesnar as we know him now would've been jobbed out to someone like Heath Herring and Chael Sonnen, far from becoming a massive star thanks to his talents on the microphone, would've been punished for being better than they wanted him to be, and probably booked to look like a tit on NXT.

Wrestling is proper shit.

Perhaps its how you do it?

 

Like how some people do that "reaching a natural conclusion" bit you speak of by keep going until every one agrees with them (or pretends to at least), because if they didn't they must be stupid. Arrogant I know but some people get a right kick from being some one on a forum.

I couldn't give a shit about being a, "someone," on a forum. It's a discussion forum, and as such I use it to discuss. Everything else is hogwash. If people like my posts then that's great, but if they don't then I'm not exactly going to lose sleep over it. If you enjoy my delivery, awesome, and if you don't then feel free to skip my contributions entirely. That's what I do if I don't enjoy someone's posts. And I don't "go until everyone agrees with me" because I don't care whether people agree with me or not. In fact, it's much better when people don't agree with me, since that's the very basis of discussion and you can then engage in a debate and therefore further elaborate. Here's the deal; I go until the area of discussion has been discussed. If I think you're wrong I'll explain why, and I'd love for the same thing to happen to me. It's not my fault if I'm more confident in my opinions than others might be, and it's not my fault if I'm better at backing up my opinion than others are either. The last thing I'd want is for someone to, "pretend," to agree with me. By all means, if you think I'm wrong then explain how and why. Grow a set of balls and provide evidence as to why you're right. It's not exactly hard. It's your opinion after all, so you must have based it on something.

The fact that you still haven't realised that I wasn't actually debating with you at all is laughable. Much like you in general.

 

I never took that debate seriously after I realised it was much more fun to watch you type up mini-novels in an attempt to make yourself look like you were right.

 

Anyone with a shred of sense would have realised what was happening and walked away much earlier. But not you.

 

You were clouded by trying to live up to your silly little moniker of "best poster", and by trying to make me see that you were "right" you kept on and on, making yourself look like a total tit in the process.

 

Your a joke, mate. You've even managed to accomplish becoming a joke in your little on-line world as well now, and have been shown up by forum members other than myself in the past few months.

I don't know how using the forum as it was intended to be used is any worse than admitting to being a troll. That's why this forum's a massive pile of shit these days. There's less and less of the former and more and more of the latter.

Forgive me though, but for someone who wasn't debating seriously, you were putting a fucking awful lot of effort in, until you came unstuck, anyway.

Why are you bringing that up as if it portrays you in some type of favourable light? It doesn't at all. I kept hitting you with cold hard facts that proved you were talking absolute shit, you kept ignoring my points because the only logical comeback was to admit you didn't have a fucking clue about what you were attempting to argue, and so accordingly I was forced to keep repeating myself.

 

You could have just not said anything, it wouldn't be the end of the world if you didn't "win", well not to any one beside you any way.

By your own admission above you were getting no where, and yet you persisted to go on and on .

Actually, I did give up once it became apparent it was futile. I tried to discuss the issue as best as I could, but once it became obvious that he was never going to address anything with any actual substance, I decided it simply wasn't worth it any more. I really couldn't give a shit about, "winning," though, whatever that means. I simply discuss the topics at hand, like you're supposed to do on a discussion forum, in the hope of reaching a natural conclusion. It's not my fault if that conclusion is never reached because someone else prefers to dance around the issue, ducking and diving whenever they're faced with something that challenges or disproves their viewpoint. And I'm baffled as to how trying to steer things back on track can be seen as anything but a positive.

make Supremo repeat himself 176 times in an amusing Brock Lesnar "debate"

Why are you bringing that up as if it portrays you in some type of favourable light? It doesn't at all. I kept hitting you with cold hard facts that proved you were talking absolute shit, you kept ignoring my points because the only logical comeback was to admit you didn't have a fucking clue about what you were attempting to argue, and so accordingly I was forced to keep repeating myself.

Yeah, well done there. Good work.

Thanks to anyone who nominated or voted for me.

It was between JLM and Seven, but I eventually went with JLM. Both are still excellent, though, doing a very good job of representing the EHS in the off-topic section.

I don't understand. Vickie Guerrero saying, "excuse me," is considered comedic? I don't think so. The only thing funny about it is how, when saying those two words, she can often generate more heel heat than anyone of the past five to ten years.

I went for Santino doing Melina's entrance, but as long as something involving Santino wins then I'll be happy. He's fantastic.

d-d-d-daz for me. With Legend Killer as a close second.

Santino delivers a few good lines and has been a hoot at times, but fundementally, he's a pro-wrestler and a shit one, so I coldn't possibly vote for him.

Alot of great candidates. It was between him and purplemonkey, but I eventually went with d-d-d-dAz.

Jeff Hardy. I used to hate the guy but there's no denying his improvements. Now if only they'd do a proper job of putting him over and making him a true main event star, they might actually be on to something. Getting smacked around by Triple H, fluking a pin and then getting LOL'd at before Mr. H completely forgets you twenty four hours later hardly cuts the mustard.But yeah, Jeff's my pick. Hopefully they restart his feud with Umaga after the Rumble. I'd be more than happy if they feuded constantly for the next six to ten years.

Santino selling the stunner, saluting in mid air. Awesome. Probably the best pay off to any angle produced by WWE or TNA this year. Depressing and funny at the same time. Dichotomous greatness.

Santino.Sure, he's shit in the ring and his babyface run was a bag of bollocks, but since turning heel he's become one of the few guys who, when his music hits, I'm able to put the remote down and forget about fast fowarding because he's pretty much guaranteed to say or do something hilarious. Cody Rhodes and co. on other hand get 30x skippage on a regular basis. Sky Plus~!I'd much rather we had more Brock Lesnars coming out of developmental but we don't, so being able to cut a funny promo is now more than enough to be considered the cream of the OVW crop in my book. I should write a book.

Christian Coalition vs. Angle Alliance (TNA) Save Us Campaign Who Killed Vince?

A pair of diamonds in an otherwise lump of shit, I'm going with the Motor City Machine Guns.Give it a year however and they'll be the next LAX, going from smoking hot and awesome to ice cold and simply existing.

Kennedy getting busted. Couldn't have happened to a slimier, lying prick. Just a shame he didn't get the sack.

Some amazing fights this year. I voted Randy Couture vs. Tim Sylvia. Whilst it wasn't the most exciting or technical fight, the emotion was off the charts. Easily one of the greatest things I've ever see. And when the final found ends and the crowd fucking ERUPTS? Goosebumps.

ROH Man Up. An incredible show that convinced me to follow ROH regularly in 2008.