IronSheik

12 hours ago, Stop the pigeon said:

Anyone mentioned in the speaking out movement is high on the list, with the way they've treated women. Other nods go to Grizzly Smith and Beniot.

Can't argue with that. These guys take it to a different level of depravity. 

Who is the most horrendous person in the wrestling business in your opinion? Not from a wrestling stand point, but on a human level.

For me, it's Sean fucking Morley AKA Val Venis. Have you seen his Twitter? He is one of the most vile, paranoid, dumb, gullible, bigoted idiots walking the face of the planet. He's like a parody of a stereotypical right wing crackpot on steroids.

Is there a more despicable prick than the Big Valbowski? 

Yeah, WWE is a mul-tie-media company really. 

Live event ticket sales have been on decline but they're creaming it with TV deals, licencing, subscription models, Middle East bumper pay deals and other such like.

Can't help but feel the decline of live ticket sales will eventually come home to roost unless its addressed though as that's the core product.

1 hour ago, Michael_3165 said:

Austin didn't act like a face but he was because people were on the journey w him. 

I'd argue he did act like a face once they went with the audience and switched him. Albeit his attitude and language was definitely not typical for a babyface.

He won clean every week like a babyface with his finish. He only got beaten (rarely) if he was fucked over by a heel or heels. He had a moral compass (remember him coming to the aid of Stephanie McMahon and JR saying something along the lines of "Austin doesn't have loyalty to the McMahons but he's doing what's right" which is classic babyface behaviour) and he had positive traits like a babyface such as bravery, honesty, drank beer, stood up to bullies / corrupt authority.

7 hours ago, air_raid said:

Pro wrestling has been presented as just two people settling  a sporting rivalry/competing for wins & titles without “goodie vs baddie” booking in many promotions in several countries over the last fifty years or so, so it’s rather a moot question in terms of “evolution.”

Unless by “the business” you meant “WWE.”

I'm ignorant to anything outside of the US in the past fifty years. So other federations around the globe just have a more reality based athlete v athlete approach? Does that draw big box office sales? 

As someone else said, I'd have just naturally assumed protagonist Vs  antagonist would capture the paying public's imagination more than competitor Vs competitor with minimal polarity. Interesting if different cultures succeed with other styles of presentation.  

I remember watching Wrestling with Shadows on VHS in the late 90s and buying into "the wrestling business has changed, there are no longer good guys or bad guys, it's all shades of grey" hook line and sinker.

But looking back, that was just clever window dressing. The reality was there were still clearly defined heels and babyfaces and all heels pretty much won by classic wrestling cheating, and all babyfaces displayed classic wrestling babyface characteristics when you boiled it down (despite wearing black trunks and swearing). 

So my question is - at it's core, ultimately, does the wrestling business ever truly evolve beyond babyfaces vs heels / good vs evil story telling? 

My immediate reaction to that smarky t-shirt is one of disgust and cringe, but on reflection, AEW's fan base is probably 90% diehard wrestling loyalist and this will appeal to that demographic. 

As has been said, she presided over the meteoric uprise of woman's wrestling when Ronda, Charlotte and Becky deservedly headlined their biggest events. A few years earlier I'd have never thought the women's division would have reached the calibre it has and Steph obviously played a part in giving them the opportunity to shine. 

Some really interesting insight into Warrior's short lived and highly controversial run in Las Vegas' NWC in 1995.

First off, a hilariously daft promo where he says Warrior 7 times in 14 seconds after accidentally saying "Ultimate Warrior" instead of "Warrior" and has to backtrack on himself as he was in litigation with Titan at the time over the rights to the name "Ultimate Warrior".  This promo also mentions TC Martin who was the promoter of the NWC. 

Then below we have TC Martin telling of the experience of working with Warrior during this period and he alleges Warrior actually physically stole money from the venue and fucked off.

8 hours ago, air_raid said:

I’m informed that allusions to the opposition are to make it more real, and as such, timeless.

23 hours ago, LaGoosh said:

- Firstly and perhaps most importantly: that fucking tattoo. The MJF match was a hot feud with great angles (the 10 lashes is an all time great angle) but regardless of how good the build was when he came out for the match with that ridiculous thing on his neck you could feel the air suck out the room. I think a huge portion of the fanbase lost a lot of respect for him as soon as they saw it. I know I did. It's hard to cheer for someone who would do something so stupid.

Beautifully put 👏 🤣 amen, could not agree more. That tattoo is absolutely belting of shit and was the catalyst for his downward spiral.

18 hours ago, air_raid said:

Worked shoot is 10 years past producing anything meaningful or particularly memorable and 20 years past the peak of its intrigue. With the world of Twitter and podcasts there’s plenty of places to hear the workers shoot, on TV people just want them to work.

I take your point but I still think a large proportion of the viewing public are drawn to work that feels real and drawing authentically on real events is timeless. 

Why as fans are a section so annoyed at Punk and MJF referencing a rival promotion and its talent? Does crossing that line not make it seem more real? What harm does it do to anyone's viewing pleasure? 

On 11/11/2021 at 11:50 AM, RancidPunx said:

I wonder genuinely does “Buff” actually know how to be Marcus any more? 

I could see him delivering a “Buff” type promo , complete with flexing, as he is giving the eulogy at his mother’s funeral. 

😆🤣😂😂😆🤣 pahaha... 

That's an interesting phenomenon in wrestling when wrestlers become their gimmick 24/7 and appear to lose touch with who they really are. Wonder if any psychologists have ever looked into it.

I can't find evidence of this on YouTube, but there was a Russo/Ferrara swerve in Dubiya Cee Dubiya which Scott Steiner executed amazingly. He came out in crutches and cut a heart felt promo in the ring, then suddenly turned heel on someone and started beating the shit out of them with his crutches.

The 17 year old me was an absolute mark for that swerve. Haven't seen it in 21 years but remember being blown away by it.

46 minutes ago, air_raid said:

WWE would not present a pro-Trump person as a heel.

Cornette managing in the Mania main event in the 2010s? Really?

Also, WWE would not present an atheist character as a babyface.

Yeah, true on Trump.

Yeah why not, America is so polarised I reckon this could catch fire if it was real and believable and Hellwig and Cornette would both pretty much just have to be themselves.

Yeah, also very true re: athiest babyface.  

To answer the question, I'd have squeezed every bit of nostalgic good will babyface juice out of Warrior post HOF and got all the documentaries and career retrospectives maximised as they did. 

Then I would have brought him into Raw as a manager or authority figure and turned him heel. He could espouse his shoot right wing Trumpian view points mixed in with some tradition heelish behaviour and I think he would have attracted big heat from a modern audience.

I'd have paired him with an up coming monster bodybuilder heel who could squash opponents like he did and have a Jock / wank / proud boys / gym rat attitude.

Then I'd bring back Jim Cornette as a manager and pair him with an up and coming babyface and have Jim spout off his politically left learning, athiest schtick. Culminating in a massive Mania main event after 2 years.

Then after that has ran its course I'd have once again turned Warrior back babyface (dropping the right wing stuff) and retired him with another nostalgia programme and induct Cornette into the HOF.

On 9/10/2021 at 11:58 PM, Bret Hart's Buddy said:

Kevin Nash. 

Great shout. Nash gets heat from some wrestlers and office management for being a low drawing champion. But that was during a recession and I think it's unfair to put all the blame on him.

He was always over with me as Diesel. He was massively over with me as Kevin Nash in Dubiya Cee Dubiya, and he's my number 1 shoot interview go-to guy post retirement. 

Think you've hot shotted the whole angle here. 4 great examples 👏

Undertaker in the dawn of internet forums in the early 2000s used to get absolutely shat on by smarks saying he should retire and he was holding back younger talent from getting spots. But the Big Man was on top for a further 20 years and stole a few Manias in those years.

Until recently I'd have said Roman Reigns was the biggest example of this. But his heel run especially has shown everyone how fucking brilliant he is. 

John Cena and Bray Wyatt's themes got both of them over with me without them having to do anything in the ring.

Moments like this remind me why I love pro wrestling. The emotion in that crowd was off the chain and seeing Punk and the audience feed off each other was just golden.

Punk was misty eyed and so was I. Just a wonderful moment. Maybe the best pop of all time.

Amazing execution by all concerned.

Not a photo but a fucking wonderful clip

That bottle of water looks super cold and refreshing that Vince guzzles before saying "we make movies" with that shit eating grin on his face.

I always liked Jake Roberts talking about rats saying "one at a time, then two at a time, then two at a time with toys, then two at a time I'll just watch" 

Such an entertaining and brilliant documentary capturing all levels of the business in a super hot period. 

So many great characters and moments.

My personal favourite is a bit ironic as it's a moment where Jake Roberts is in an emotional situation with his estranged daughter having just finished a telephone conversation and he breaks the mood inexplicably and hilariously by being distracted by chocolate on his coat :

"I dunno man, I dunno she's just acting real funky.... T'the Hell is this shit? Chocolate or something..."

Hogan v Rock WMX8

Taker's return at Judgement Day 2000 

Debut on WWE of the nWo in 2002