Official ROH Discussion Thread

[The Cum Doctor]

This seems to be where a lot of the Dragon Gate USA talk has been going. Anyone seen the latest PPV, Enter the Dragon 2010 ?

 

<-- click on 'spoiler' to show/hide the spoiler

 

I was really disappointed in the Kamikaze USA vs. CHIKARA match, although considering that almost every match in the fued was either disappointing or poor, I shouldn't have been surprised. Am I the only one who thinks that the likes of Hallowicked and Jigsaw just aren't very good ?

 

The showcase four way match was great fun however. Ricochet came off looking like someone who could excel in Dragon Gate USA.

 

I was expecting a better match from Mochizuki and BxB Hulk, but their match was still really good. I just didn't think Mochizuki had a chance of winning and that's probably why I didn't enjoy the match as much as I thought I might.

 

It was probably the worst DG:USA show yet, but still, that says more about their PPVs than it does about this PPV.

 

 

[close spoiler]

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[Dearly Devoted Dexter]

Gadge - yes, I read that about an hour after I'd posted - typical!!!

 

I doubt it will happen. They had a big fallout over airfare and talent bills from their last tour. The expenses were supposed to be shared over the two companies but Dragon Gate picked up the bill and ROH never paid them back.

 

I'd heard this too - from what I can gather Pearce was egging Silkin on to go for it, on the basis that he was going to get loads of U.S. guys over so ROH wouldn't need to use Japanese fly-ins like they had been.

[mickfan]

Anyone else think Necro Butcher's significantly softened his style since pretty much working full time for ROH. Call me fickle but I find it harder to like the guy when he's not killing himself.

[Wrestlingsnob]

Gadge - yes, I read that about an hour after I'd posted - typical!!!

 

I doubt it will happen. They had a big fallout over airfare and talent bills from their last tour. The expenses were supposed to be shared over the two companies but Dragon Gate picked up the bill and ROH never paid them back.

 

I'd heard this too - from what I can gather Pearce was egging Silkin on to go for it, on the basis that he was going to get loads of U.S. guys over so ROH wouldn't need to use Japanese fly-ins like they had been.

 

I was under the impression that the heat/fallout from the last ROH tour in Japan was aimed more towards Dragongate rather than ROH. I am sure I have read somewhere there is massive heat between DG & NOAH over the expenses & promotion of ROHs last visit. Sure it was something to do with both NOAH & ROH claiming/thinking that DG had not lived upto their end of the deal when it came to promoting the tour at the time (which in some ways ties in with whats written above in the sense of ROH not paying them I guess).

[Dearly Devoted Dexter]

Until someone somewhere spills the beans I guess we'll never know. I can't be alone though, in thinking that if ROH had teamed up with DG for the DG:USA thing, it could have been something really special.

[Dearly Devoted Dexter]

I was going to wait until I'd seen DBD8 to post this, but the way things are going that could take another month, so here's what I thought were the best ROH matches for the first half of 2010 :

 

American Wolves vs. The Young Bucks

[gadge]

TV reviews? I guess I can do that...

 

ROH on HDNet taping #15- 8/01/10

 

New year, briefer recap...

 

Episode 44 (airdate 25/01/10) deals quickly with the fallout of the World Title match at Final Battle as Jim Cornette sets up Aries vs Black with three judges at ringside for the 8th Anniversary Show... New World Tag Team Champions The Briscoes give Cheech & Cloudy a few hope spots in a five minute, strictly fit-for-TV affair before Jay uses his military press into Death Valley Driver for the pin... The Briscoes then call out the Kings of Wrestling, only for the American Wolves to come out instead and request their rematch. The Dark City Fight Club come out as well for a three-way pull-apart.. Skullkrusher Rasche Brown, slap the porpoise, next... El Generico vs Kenny King is a decent main event in the end, once they get past Generico not having his head in the game due to Kevin Steen double crossing him at Final Battle, and King's generic mid-match offense. King wins clean with the Coronation at 12:33 to retain his Pick Six spot.

 

Episode 45 (airdate 01/02/10) starts with recap of the picking of the judges for our 8th Anniversary Show main event - and then the inexplicable announcement that Tyler Black vs his choice of judge Roderick Strong is our main event. This can't bode well... Delirious vs Rhett Titus isn't exactly fresh matchmaking for 2010, but this family friendly version of their prior bouts is watchable enough. Delirious wins with the Bizarro Driver in 7:44... Steve Corino and Kevin Steen appear together for the first time in a backstage segment... Colt Cabana beats Sonjay Dutt with the Colt 45 in a dull, heat free 7:15... Eddie Kingston is jumped by the Embassy in an angle. That's a step backwards from feuding with Chris Hero. Necro Butcher makes the save... Tyler beats Roderick with a superkick in the main event in 16:00. This was good for the most part, but had shenanigans from Austin Aries in the early going and Aries came back out for the finish where an accidental collision with Aries possibly costs Roderick the decision. Both Strong and Black beat up on Aries to close the show...

 

As the final episode to air before the 8th Anniversary Show, Episode 46 (airdate 08/02/10) opens with Jim Cornette and Tyler Black once again... Roderick Strong interrupts Tyler's promo and they end on a tense note... Steve Corino & Kevin Steen's six minute victory over Alex Payne & Bobby Dempsey is notable for Corino and 'Sugarfoot' looking completely awful out there... Dark City Fight Club, slap the porpoise, next... Austin Aries gets stuck with Kyle Durden for his World Title match hyping promo, and makes no bones in complaining about it... The Young Bucks beat the American Wolves in by far the best match of the tapings so far, an encounter that also gets a lot more time than their bout from episode 35 at 21:00 even. Matt Jackson rolls up Davey Richards for the pin to earn the Bucks a tag title shot at some point...

 

At this point I've decided that even though taping #16 was the next night, the way this leads directly into the 8th Anniversary Show means the TVs can wait until I've seen that show on DVD. DGUSA Fearless review coming next..

 

Once again featuring cobystag in the front row, heeeeere's the next night's taping...

 

ROH on HDNet taping #16- 09/01/10

 

Episode 47 (airdate 15/02/10) nicely builds it's Erick Stevens & Joey Ryan vs Necro Butcher & Eddie Kingston opener with comments cut together from Stevens & Necro expressing their motivations going into the match. The match itself starts with a watchable brawling at ringside segment, then settles fairly well into the Embassy working over Kingston, then Necro makes the tag and the Embassy end up bailing (albeit with Nana and Ryan holding back Stevens) for a countout loss at 10:20. That's a lame finish to drag the feud out... A freshly shaved but pasty white Kevin Steen cuts a good promo on El Generico and his opponent in the main event, Delirious... Skullkrusher Rasche Brown, slap the porpoise, next... Highlights of The Young Bucks victory last week are followed by the announcement they get their title shot next week.... Staying on the subject of tag teams, a promo by the Kings of Wrestling airs over footage of their reformation at Final Battle... Sonjay Dutt gets some heat teaming with Andy Ridge vs Cheech & Cloudy, but it's not clear if it's good heat or X-Pac 'go away' heat. Cheech & Cloudy get their first win, pinning Ridge of course, in 5:16... Kevin Steen retains his Pick Six spot by submission with a crossface in a solid match but unspectacular main event in 13:57.

 

Episode 48 (airdate 22/02/10) only has three matches, including a squash, but also makes the most out of some footage of Tyler Black's title win in NYC nine days earlier... Rhett Titus upsets El Generico with an inside cradle in 7:30 because Generico's head isn't in the game... Colt Cabana embarasses jobber Bobby Shields for a couple of minutes before getting a tap out win with the Billy Goat's Curse. Afterwards, Steve Corino comes out to warn Cabana to watch out who he sticks up for... Necro Butcher and Erick Stevens have a fight in the parking lot that somehow spills into The Arena. Don't brawls like this usually go the other way?... The Briscoes vs The Young Bucks for the World Tag Team Titles takes a while to get the crowd into it with both teams being favourites. The action is solid and the build to the closing stages is steady, and by the time the big moves begin flowing the crowd are well into it. The Briscoes retain with the Doomsday Device in 15:50. Two really good main events in three episodes, thank you Young Bucks.

 

Episode 49 (airdate 01/03/10) opens with The American Wolves vs The Dark City Fight Club. In the abscence of a clear fan favourite, both teams get the crowd involved by being aggressive throughout. DCFC score the mild upset with Project Mayhem on Eddie Edwards in 10:34. A good start to the show, another loss for the Wolves who argue afterwards... Why do we have to keep watching ROH students vs Steve Corino? Bobby Dempsey actually looks alright in there with Corino, who only wins with a rollup in 2:57. Dempsey attacks afterwards, but that only brings out Kevin Steen for a beatdown of Dempsey and Alex Payne. No-one cares about Sugarfoot... He may have got a pre-taped promo earlier in the show, and he may have two opponents in The Set, but when it comes to Skullkrusher Rasche Brown in the ring, it's still a case of Slap the Porpoise, next... Sara Del Rey's victory over Portia Perez is too one sided and too short at 3:35 to be considered good. Del Rey's piledriver looks nasty though... The World Title changing hands after the match was taped means the Austin Aries and Kenny King vs Tyler Black and Roderick Strong main event starts with all four men already in the ring... As per usual for this kind of match, Aries leaves Kenny King to do most of the work as he tries to avoid Tyler in particular. Of course, in time the heels isolate Roderick, and the crowd are hot for Tyler when he eventually makes the tag. It's not to be for the new champ and his chosen judge though, as Roderick is pinned by Kenny King after an errant Tyler superkick in 12:17. A shoving match ensues, referees seperate them, and that's our taping done...

 

Overall, I thought this set of tapings did a pretty good job of building up Aries vs Black for the 8th Anniversary Show, and also setting Roderick Strong up for his addition to the feud after the title change. In the ring, the top tag teams saved the tapings, as the Briscoes, Young Bucks, American Wolves and even Dark City Fight Club brought the goods and were matched up well, whereas there was barely a decent singles match to be seen. The TV title tournament starts on the next taping though, so here's hoping that'll change...

[Dearly Devoted Dexter]

My copy of Buffalo Stampede 2/DBD 8 finally arrived today, hopefully a review will be up soon. I was quite looking forward to the NOAHesque single challenge series - until I found out the dreadful Andy "Right Leg" Ridge was to be the first one to undertake it. I have no problem with ROH trying to use their wrestling school guys, but at least invest effort in guys that actually have a chance of getting over, instead of guys like Ridge and the Bravado Brothers who have no chance of getting over.

[Dearly Devoted Dexter]

Eeek, double post

Edited September 25, 2010 by Dearly Devoted Dexter

[air_raid]

Better Ridge than Sugartits.

[Dearly Devoted Dexter]

I fear that will happen once he gets back from his NOAH jaunt....

[gadge]

They have those guys they've just signed to contracts that this gimmick is made for, surely? Cole and Bennett?

 

I was going to wait to post this until I'd done the Feb 5th TV taping, but what the heck...

 

8th Anniversary Show - New York, NY - 13/2/10

 

When ROH ran their first show in 2002, I'd never attended a live wrestling event, and it was still six months before I was to join the UKFF. Still, I remember going to a mates house to watch a video(!) of the debut show once the company behind early ROH finally shipped it out, and being totally hooked by the main event in particular. For awhile, my ROH following consisted mostly of dodgy copies, especially once I started attending live shows (FWA, mostly) which usually had one of the now defunct tape traders in attendance with a table of tapes. I feel much better for buying the official DVDs now, I promise. Anyway, a full-ish house appears to be in place in the Manhattan Center here for the 8th Anniversary Show, and they are hot hot hot. We start with a pre-taped Tyler Black promo that, to be honest, isn't very good. He's not going to rely on anyone else to help him win the title tonight, he's going to be the ideal Tyler Black, is the gist of it...

 

Brian Kendrick vs Roderick Strong - This turns out to be a one-off return to ROH for Kendrick, courtesy of him signing for TNA. Thankfully this is a level above most of what he's done in that promotion since. Roderick comes out in aggressive mode, which doesn't give Kendrick the option of going easy as he gets his chest chopped to shreds in a fashion not seen since Strong vs Danielson. There's one awkward bit when they are brawling on the floor and Kendrick doesn't seem to want to play ball but otherwise this is a really good opening match. Strong picks up the win with a torture rack backbreaker-big boot-Gibson Driver combo at 10:25.

 

The Kings of Wrestling vs The Bravado Brothers - The Bravados get a pre-taped promo before this one for some reason. Unfortunately for the obvious jobbers, their opportunity to prove themselves is a miserable failure as the NYC crowd eat up everything the Kings of Wrestling do and boo the hell out of their small comeback. KRS-One and this is done at 5:22. Roll on the Kings vs anyone else...

 

Necro Butcher & Eddie Kingston vs Erick Stevens & Joey Ryan - At just 8:06, this no-rules tag match is shorter than the TV version of the match that just ended in a countout. There isn't really time to make it jump out over your average Necro brawl of any time recently. Necro and Joey bleed, and outside help from Gypsy Joe on Necro's side and Prince Nana and Ernesto Osiris for the Embassy provide some attention-distracting shortcuts. Despite Erick Stevens powerbombing Eddie Kingston through the timekeepers table, Necro still finds time to choke Joey Ryan out with a plastic bag for the finish. Sadly that doesn't appear to be the end of Joey in ROH, as predictably Necro gets beat down afterwards for a bit. Yawn.

 

Davey Richards vs El Generico - Now, this is just the kind of thing you could say ROH has been missing in the DVD shows in last 18 months or so - a cracking match in the middle of the DVD just because. This one takes a little while to really get going as Generico requires a bit of motivation from Colt Cabana, and Davey gets a bit obsessed by shouting "American Wolves!" and abusing some guy in the front row. It's well in the flow by the ten minute mark though, as Generico and Richards show their usual chemistry. There's a ton of counters based on their familiarity with each other, and a bunch of headdrops right at the end just for fun. In the past, Richards vs Generico in ROH has meant brainbuster on the turnbuckles and a Generico win, but it's a sign of Richards' momentum and Generico having a feud to go into that Richards gets the clean win by submission with a cross armbreaker at 21:15. Generico declines a handshake afterwards and slaps Richards across the face with an elbow pad! Richards applauds his effort anyway. Maybe Generico is now mentally ready to get aggressive with Kevin Steen... more on this later.

 

ROH World Tag Team Title Match: The Briscoes vs The Dark City Fight Club - Lots of clubbering here, and very little wrestling. The crowd are absolutely dead for this, as the Dark City Fight Club have absolutely no momentum outside of squash matches on HDNet and aren't viable contenders at all. For the second straight time in NYC, The Briscoes don't get massive reactions either, certainly not compared to their incoming competition the Kings of Wrestling. A totally below par tag title defense, the Briscoes retain with the Spike Jay Driller at 9:57. The KOW do a run-in again after the finish, followed by a few randoms from the locker room, but the Briscoes are the last team standing in the three-way brawl with the DCFC and KOW here too.

 

Pick 6 Series: Kenny King (4) vs Delirious vs Steve Corino vs Rasche Brown - This looks like it's going to do a reasonable job of showcasing the characteristics of everyone in the match, as Delirious goes nuts at the start, King shows his cockiness and athleticism until he feels some power offense from Skullkrusher, and Corino shows he can be entertaining when he can rely on psychology instead of athleticism (because he is nothing like in shape). Unfortunately, from there Corino and King double team Delirious in very uninspiring fashion while keeping Brown on the floor to total silence. After that, when Brown makes it in to clean house it's not long at all until Delirious follows up his spear on King with Shadows Over Hell to claim King's Pick Six spot at 9:10. This certainly feels like the post-intermission filler match...

 

Kevin Steen vs Colt Cabana - This is really more of an angle than a match. So, all I can do is recap really: Cabana confronts Steen about the Generico situation and an open letter from Steen to Cabana that was posted on ROHwrestling.com. Cabana apologises, which Steen says he appreciates, but then attacks him anyway to start the match. Technical wrestling doesn't come into it as they exchange punches and chops, mostly, with Steen controlling for awhile, then grabbing his knee after a Cabana comeback sees him dumped out on the floor at about the six minute mark. Rather than be drawn out to the floor, Cabana starts questioning Steen again, which draws out Steve Corino. Corino ends up getting Steen back in the ring, but Cabana continues with the mic work. Just as Cabana seems to be getting into Steen's head, El Generico arrrives, Corino attacks Cabana drawing a DQ end to the match at 9:13, Generico saves Cabana and grabs a chair from him, but Steen gets between them. Generico isn't prepared to attack Steen though, and Steen makes him pay, blasting his hurt arm from earlier with the chair and putting him in the crossface until Cabana makes the save. The crowd didn't seem that into Steen vs Cabana - other than a bizarre game of capture the gum - but didn't crap on things either. Importantly, the two moments where Generico and Steen faced off were particularly effective. A good angle, but more development is required...

 

ROH World Title Match: Austin Aries vs Tyler Black - One wonders why the ROH braintrust bothered with the 60 minute draw at Final Battle, especially considering that was on iPPV, when a match like this at 22:25 - and of course a title change - is what had been built to the entire Aries vs Black feud. Still, the live fans in New York are rewarded with the right match this time, and the judges at ringside enable the beginning of a finishing sequence reminiscent of Aries dethroning Samoa Joe at Final Battle 2004. This is a comparable match to that one, actually, as when Aries takes control of the match after the opening period, there's a fairly long middle section with not that much heat as Aries works over Tyler in methodical fashion, not helped by him spending his time between spots jawing with the crowd and the judges.

 

Tyler begins his big comeback with a superplex followed by an F5, Aries reprises the heat seeking missile into the barrier spot from the Liger match in California, and Tyler does a Danielson-esque dive onto Aries and into the crowd. Of course, the judges aren't there to judge really, they are there to interject, and Kenny King has seen enough when Tyler reverses an Aries brainbuster into God's Last Gift and jumps on the apron to try and prevent the following Phoenix Splash. Roderick Strong breaks that up with a kick to King which inadvertently knocks Tyler off the top, but Tyler is the ideal Tyler Black and isn't relying on anyone else, and nails a superkick on Roderick, another on Jim Cornette when he then jumps on the apron, then polishes off Aries with a spectacular combo of superkicks, the Buckle Bomb and finally the Phoenix Splash for the pin and the title. Much like Aries/Joe, it's that concluding minute which makes the match, and while what went before was certainly good, it wasn't really great. Tyler finally winning the title is certainly a must-see moment, however. Post-match, Tyler celebrates with the emptying (face) locker room, then Roderick reminds him Tyler now owes him a shot at the title.

 

Overall, the title change and excellent Richards vs Generico match make an otherwise largely average show worth seeking out. DVD run time is 2 hours, 35 minutes with no bonus matches.

 

So that's the end of Austin Aries second reign as ROH World Champion. While I feel he was deserving of being the first man to get a second reign, and also liked his radical change of character in 2009, the main problem with Aries reign was that 'A-Double' as champion was never going to generate must-see matches. There were some matches that turned out really good, like Aries vs Richards, but it seemed difficult for ROH to generate buzz around Aries defenses ahead of time.

 

The problem with 'A-Double' matches during his reign often stemmed from his moveset. Most of his trademarks are prime moves for a fan favourite - the heat seeking missile, the explosive dropkicks, the combinations into the 450 - so Aries dropped the 450, which did lead to him using the brainbuster as a finish effectively, and used slower, methodical offense, that just made the bulk of his matches not that exciting. Then, when he did use the heat seeking missile etc, the crowd would react favourably, and it was uncommon for Aries to completely get the crowd against him, with plenty of support for him even in the match with Tyler here where he finally drops the belt.

 

ROH World Champion 'A-Double' did form a pretty good unit with Kenny King and Rhett Titus. Their faction was most effective on the HDNet TV series, and probably helped elevate King and Titus, but tag matches with King and Titus only helped Aries as a heel in the sense that he could do even less, so again his matches were probably not the thing you'd be looking to see most. Without the belt, Aries seems destined to have the spotlight come off him somewhat, and he'll settle into the midcard for awhile. Whether there is ever any clamour for a third reign as ROH World Champion seems unlikely at this point.

 

Now, roll on some Tyler Black title defenses, as so far in 2010 ROH has been more enjoyable than it has for some time...

Edited September 25, 2010 by gadge

[Dearly Devoted Dexter]

Hard to disagree with that assessment of Aries title reign. It very much typified the Pearce regime, with Aries by and large more worried about getting heat than actually having good matches. The weekend where he had matches with Richards and Omega showed what he could have done, but it seemed like they never bothered to give him any sort of program with anyone prior to his feud with Tyler Black - which had been occuring on-and-off for much of 2009 anyway. The fact that he never bothers to turn up during tag matches didn't really help either. He's a tremendous talent, but I think Aries is at the point in ROH where he's done everything he can pretty much.

 

They have those guys they've just signed to contracts that this gimmick is made for, surely? Cole and Bennett?

 

That's what everyone assumed, which is why it was somewhat frustrating to see fucking "Right Leg" Ridge announced as the first candidate. I'm assuming that Delirious trained the guy, so maybe this is Hunter flexing his muscles for the first time since becoming booker?

Edited September 26, 2010 by Dearly Devoted Dexter

[gadge]

On a final note about Aries, he'll still be in the main event picture for me when I watch DVDs of the Phoenix shows and The Big Bang. I'm interested to see how he fits there...

 

- Recent ROH signings Adam Cole and Kyle O

[gadge]

So, I've just purchased my (group of) tickets to ROH's shows in Atlanta on April 1 and 2, 2011. Hopefully I've secured front row for April 1, as I was done within 2 minutes of on-sale, have gone for cheaper tickets for April 2...