New Japan & ZERO-One 4.1 discussion thread

[CracktonMoj]

Let me ask you though. How come you went to a Tokyo Dome show having only ever seen 3 tapes? I mean, surely that's got to be massively expensive for something that you only seem to have a passing interest in?

Stew mate - you know how I don't like lucha? If I found myself in Mexico City or Tijuana or (insert lucha hotbed here) and there was a big show, as a wrestling fan, I'd probably go. And then write a thing on the internet saying 'Well that wasn't that good, nobody connected with anything and it seemed like a big bucket of spots'. I assume it's a similar thing with this guy.There, that's the defence over with. And even though Paralyzer's being hugely condescending and mocking this guy's right to an opinion (don't play the innocent game Stew, you used the rolling eyes smiley ), this is the biggest overreaction since I rolled out my 'Drew McDonald Must Get Cancer' theory. I'm probably in tune with the rest of this board when I say 'PJC, you're acting like a prick, and you should probably shut up now'. Yes.And over to the GHC title debate - what's wrong with having Liger drop it to Marufuji, and then Marufuji (who is really over in NOAH and will be even more over by virtue of a victory over Liger) dropping it to KENTA? Feuding tag partners, and all that.

[Terje Rindal]

And over to the GHC title debate - what's wrong with having Liger drop it to Marufuji, and then Marufuji (who is really over in NOAH and will be even more over by virtue of a victory over Liger) dropping it to KENTA? Feuding tag partners, and all that.

I'd having Liger beat Marufuji, then KENTA beat Liger then Marujufji is jealous of his more successful partner and they can feud. Don't know why, but despite being involved in some awesome matches this year, I can't really get into Marufuji at all.

[CracktonMoj]

I'd having Liger beat Marufuji, then KENTA beat Liger then Marujufji is jealous of his more successful partner and they can feud.

That works better actually - Marufuji'd probably be better as a heel. KENTA's all awesome on defence, but his offence is still slightly weak (it's mainly kicks and a Falcon Arrow, unless he's changed lots since I last saw him). Rules though

[ultimo the great]

The only bad to come from Liger winning the GHC Jr belt is he'll probably end up jobbing it to Marufuji hopefully not before he defends against Kanemaru, KENTA, Kikuchi, Hashi, Juvi & Marvin.

I'll go out on my own here and say that Liger will defend the GHC jr belt for a decent 8-10 months and eventually drop it to KENTA, elevating KENTA to a massive status and giving him 2005 to cement himself as the future for jr's in Japan.regards nate holynski

This is what i'd like to see happen but i see Liger dropping the belt to Marufuji at Noah's dome show in April, which makes sense booking wise but i really can't get into Marufuji at all and although i'm a bigger fan of Kanemaru & Hashi i'd be very happy to see KENTA win the belt back for Noah. between now and april i can only see him defending it about three times.

[MoChatra]

Anyway, WW04 is the first puro show in ages to catch my interest to the point I'll find a way of seeing the show.

That comments a good enough point at which to respond to this:

Hypocrite Pick: Mo #2? 2, maybe 1 year ago, maybe - not now. As a poster, he's pretty much devalued into a trool there to wind people up.

Those comments wouldn't have anything to do with me pointing out the entire hypocrisy and bare-faced arrogance that surrounded your launch of SMV-UK, would it? I admit that I contributed more to the board in 2002 than I did in 2003, but for a married man with a full-time job and various other pursuits/interests that take up my time, I felt I made some decent contributions throughout last year.Much of my contributions were posted in threads about puro and MMA, which most people on this board don't tend to read and I largely tended to avoid the more higher-profile threads of last year that often centred around debating the past achievements of WWF/E stars (Austin, Bret, Shawn, etc., that the likes of Terje were very prominent in).Anyway, you'll be glad to know that I made the decision whilst I was unwell recently, that my posts on this and other message boards will be cut way down to the extent you'll very rarely see me contribute to sites like the UKFF and RIM. I've posted hardly anything the last few weeks and I've found that my general enjoyment of pro wrestling is substantially greater when I'm not busy posting away on forums.Instead, I'm just going to sit back and enjoy reading threads like these, rather than contribute to them like I have in the past.Now, I think I'll get back to finishing off Toryumon #62. Goodbye. Edited January 6, 2004 by MoChatra

[Porn Baron]

now now Dave and Mo play nicely please!i very much enjoy what mo has to say has i fellow MMA and Puro more then US indy stuff.

[wilmotd]

I never meant it like that so stop taking one thing and making it another and getting completely off the point.

All I did was read your comment. There's no twisting here. You stated something, and I responded. Not really my fault there.

Your so keen that Tenzan should be pushed to the roof I bet you weren't saying that when he won the title

Errr....yeah, actually I was as it happened.

but of course you always have to moan about something.

Do I indeed, Dr Wilmot? I never realised you made a habit of following every post I make on every single message board on the whole Internet.

Your asking when Chono will do the job himself? Look at past results and you'll see how many big profile matches he lost this year so stop making something seem like it isn't.

Yes, I am questioning why Chono couldn't have jobbed in the match. To me, it made far more sense than to job Tenzan out on the big stage once more. Chono was coming back from a severely injured neck, as BR pointed out, so for him to job here would be plausible and safe booking. Chono could give the old ring rust excuse and Tenzan would at least have avoided another big stage job. But more than that, why in all these "big name inter promotional dream matches" that New Japan do, why do they usually job themselves out? Surely it would have made things a lot more interesting for Tenzan to pin Mutoh, thus setting up Kojima-Tenzan down the line.Just as a point - do you know how many jobs Chono did last (not this, btw) year? I've got better things to do than check, but I bet you he jobbed less than anyone save Nagata. It's the way he books, keeps himself safe. All my point is, is that he should be protecting other people now, not himself.

You said Tenzan has now been reduced to a jobber? That's complete crap, he's been pinned 2 times since the G1 Climax so he's a jobber.

Fair enough. My point, which you missed, was that Tenzan has gone from being company ace to being Chono's lackey once again. No, make that complete-wreck-Chono's lackey.

Your talking about Chono being crippled, that's a little extreme too

Didn't say cripple. Said near cripple. One can walk...just. The other can't.

he's just started his comeback and obviously will push himself

And why the hell does Chono need to push himself again?

which makes sense as he is a draw and having him job to someone who he doesn't need to and wouldn't help him if he's to job to maybe Nakamura later on the year?

Chono is a legend. He has kept himself so well protected job wise that when he jobs, it doesn't matter. He's exactly like Liger, who can job and it wouldn't hurt his drawing ability at all. Unlike Liger, Chono is a bit too stingy on when he jobs.You have a point about Nakamura, if they are going to go that route. But literally, if they are going to seriously do Chono-Nakamura, then they're not going to do it next month, so why would Chono jobbing to Sapp hurt this match?

Keep Chono strong which means when he does lose to someone it'll make them look even stronger instead of what you would do

No, that doesn't need to happen. Chono is a legend, as I've said. He doesn't need to keep himself strong. And, just for the hell of it, what is wrong with having Sapp pin Chono, or Tenzan pin Mutoh? They make a lot more sense than Sapp pinning Tenzan to me.

and job him to everyone because he's old and have Tenzan win every match because he's mistreated and deserves the title.

Where did I say that then? Where did I say Chono should job to everyone? Where did I say Tenzan should beat everyone? I think you'll find I didn't, thank you very much. So, perhaps you'd like to actually read my comments and respond to what they actually mean before coming back with such made up delusional nonsense.I thank you.

I don't really have the time to bitch Lizard King but I'll follow up with a few points.- Your comment about Chono not jobbing and being near crippled are completely stupid and I won't be wasting time on coming up with another argument.- Tenzan being a 'lackey' is the same as above, stupid comment I mean he was booked on the biggest match of the card, so what if he had to job and about Mutoh doing the job you ever wondered why he might of wrestled on the show in the first place? Called buisness.- I'm not 100% sure but I'm guessing Liger did less jobs then Chono last year. - I'm not a Dr. neither but I quite like being called one so that's fine.I thank you.

[Guest LizardKing]

I don't really have the time to bitch Lizard King

I'm so relieved.

- Your comment about Chono not jobbing and being near crippled are completely stupid and I won't be wasting time on coming up with another argument.

Well, when you do "find the time", please extrapolate on how they are stupid. Because the guy in one year has suffered severe injuries that could have stopped a career. He fought through a knee injury and performed against Kobashi when he could hardly walk. And then he darn near had his neck broken. Not exactly a picture of health is it? And please tell me how my comments about Chono's job-a-phobia are stupid? I'm dying to know, I really am.

- Tenzan being a 'lackey' is the same as above, stupid comment I mean he was booked on the biggest match of the card, so what if he had to job and about Mutoh doing the job you ever wondered why he might of wrestled on the show in the first place? Called buisness.

Whoa, that's a real sentence. I'll bullet point my responses:1) Tenzan, when teaming with Chono, is always number two. He is always the weaker. You'd have a real hard time arguing otherwise. (So don't bother).2) Being booked in the biggest match of the card (calling it which, is in itself debatable) does not protect you. Fact is, Tenzan, once again, jobs on the big stage and, once again, it looks like he chokes at said big stage.3) You're right in that Mutoh would want himself protected in order to appear on the card. What I said, which seems to have floated waaaaaay over your head, is that why not use this match to build a bigger match down the line, that will lead to bigger business. Or is that stupid to you as well?4) It's spelt B-U-S-I-N-E-S-S

- I'm not 100% sure but I'm guessing Liger did less jobs then Chono last year.

I'm guessing you're wrong.

- I'm not a Dr. neither but I quite like being called one so that's fine.

I'm so glad.

I thank you.

No, no good sir, pleasure was all mine.

[Guest Dave Pick]

Anyway, WW04 is the first puro show in ages to catch my interest to the point I'll find a way of seeing the show.

That comments a good enough point at which to respond to this:

Hypocrite Pick: Mo #2? 2, maybe 1 year ago, maybe - not now. As a poster, he's pretty much devalued into a trool there to wind people up.

Those comments wouldn't have anything to do with me pointing out the entire hypocrisy and bare-faced arrogance that surrounded your launch of SMV-UK, would it? I admit that I contributed more to the board in 2002 than I did in 2003, but for a married man with a full-time job and various other pursuits/interests that take up my time, I felt I made some decent contributions throughout last year.Much of my contributions were posted in threads about puro and MMA, which most people on this board don't tend to read and I largely tended to avoid the more higher-profile threads of last year that often centred around debating the past achievements of WWF/E stars (Austin, Bret, Shawn, etc., that the likes of Terje were very prominent in).Anyway, you'll be glad to know that I made the decision whilst I was unwell recently, that my posts on this and other message boards will be cut way down to the extent you'll very rarely see me contribute to sites like the UKFF and RIM. I've posted hardly anything the last few weeks and I've found that my general enjoyment of pro wrestling is substantially greater when I'm not busy posting away on forums.Instead, I'm just going to sit back and enjoy reading threads like these, rather than contribute to them like I have in the past.Now, I think I'll get back to finishing off Toryumon #62. Goodbye.

Man, it's by total chance I even came back into this thread considering the bigger NJPW news at the moment.But you see Mo, you bring a point totally irrelevent into a thread is it 5 pages long now? You see?

[wilmotd]

I don't really have the time to bitch Lizard King

I'm so relieved.

- Your comment about Chono not jobbing and being near crippled are completely stupid and I won't be wasting time on coming up with another argument.

Well, when you do "find the time", please extrapolate on how they are stupid. Because the guy in one year has suffered severe injuries that could have stopped a career. He fought through a knee injury and performed against Kobashi when he could hardly walk. And then he darn near had his neck broken. Not exactly a picture of health is it? And please tell me how my comments about Chono's job-a-phobia are stupid? I'm dying to know, I really am.

- Tenzan being a 'lackey' is the same as above, stupid comment I mean he was booked on the biggest match of the card, so what if he had to job and about Mutoh doing the job you ever wondered why he might of wrestled on the show in the first place? Called buisness.

Whoa, that's a real sentence. I'll bullet point my responses:1) Tenzan, when teaming with Chono, is always number two. He is always the weaker. You'd have a real hard time arguing otherwise. (So don't bother).2) Being booked in the biggest match of the card (calling it which, is in itself debatable) does not protect you. Fact is, Tenzan, once again, jobs on the big stage and, once again, it looks like he chokes at said big stage.3) You're right in that Mutoh would want himself protected in order to appear on the card. What I said, which seems to have floated waaaaaay over your head, is that why not use this match to build a bigger match down the line, that will lead to bigger business. Or is that stupid to you as well?4) It's spelt B-U-S-I-N-E-S-S

- I'm not 100% sure but I'm guessing Liger did less jobs then Chono last year.

I'm guessing you're wrong.

- I'm not a Dr. neither but I quite like being called one so that's fine.

I'm so glad.

I thank you.

No, no good sir, pleasure was all mine.

The reason I said I'm not 100% sure is because I haven't checked all the results so I'm not going to sya it'sa defintate when it's not, but it's pretty likely.Thanks for correcting me on the spelling, spelling must be your strong point. You think someone who is 'near crippled' would be able to wrestle? Again that comment is so stupid and I'm sure if you think about it you'll see why.Tenzan has always been the weaker of the two I'll admit that. Over the year they've become pretty much equals though and just because Tenzan doesn't mean you have to have a panic attack, what's the big deal? He was pinned, oh my god he's a wrestler, a wrestler got pinned OH MY FUCKING GOD WHAT WILL WE EVER DO???By the way which other match was bigger then this one? And to close, thank you for letting me argue with you, it really is an honour.

[Guest LizardKing]

The reason I said I'm not 100% sure is because I haven't checked all the results so I'm not going to sya it'sa defintate when it's not, but it's pretty likely.

Well, we'll have to disagree there. I think Liger jobbed a lot more than Chono in 2003. However, part of that is inevitable - whenever Liger fights heavyweights, he is certain to job and, we have to take into account the amount of time Chono missed this year.

Thanks for correcting me on the spelling, spelling must be your strong point.

Thanks. And yes, it is my strong point. Along with judging wrestlers for not jobbing enough.

You think someone who is 'near crippled' would be able to wrestle? Again that comment is so stupid and I'm sure if you think about it you'll see why.

Yes I do. I realised that when I saw Masa Chono, barely able to walk, wrestle against Kenta Kobashi. I'm not knocking the guy, I absolutely am astounded by his passion, desire and commitment to wrestling. I just hate to think of what physically he will be like in ten years time.

Tenzan has always been the weaker of the two I'll admit that. Over the year they've become pretty much equals though and just because Tenzan doesn't mean you have to have a panic attack, what's the big deal? He was pinned, oh my god he's a wrestler, a wrestler got pinned OH MY FUCKING GOD WHAT WILL WE EVER DO???

My problem here is that it reverted to the same old trends that should have changed years ago. Tenzan should be stronger than Chono now. But you have Chono returning from a near broken neck and still not get pinned? In my opinion, that should not be. Contrast to Tenzan, who was coming off winning the IWGP Tag Belts with Nishimura. Surely it would have been best, if the NJPW side had to job, for Chono to do it?

By the way which other match was bigger then this one?

You could argue that the IWGP v/s NWF unification match was "supposed" to be bigger, hence why it was the main event. I probably wouldn't argue that, seeing as the tag match had SAPP power, but I was just saying, you could argue, ya know...

And to close, thank you for letting me argue with you, it really is an honour.

No need, good sir. It's great to have a good argument every now and then.

[MoChatra]

Man, it's by total chance I even came back into this thread considering the bigger NJPW news at the moment.But you see Mo, you bring a point totally irrelevent into a thread is it 5 pages long now? You see?

Erm, what are you saying?Anyway, I don't see why anyone here should forget your hypocrisy. You basically put down every trader, and every trader's customer on this forum a few months back when you launched SMV-UK, and now you're telling us you'll be getting a copy of this show.We all know you're not going to buy the official DVD release from Amazon's Japan site, so that's why I felt it apt to point out your hypocrisy in this case. Just admit that you, like the rest of us, also watch tapes where money doesn't go back to 'the boys' from the money you pay for them, and you'll earn back all the respect you had this time last year. You see?

[wilmotd]

The reason I said I'm not 100% sure is because I haven't checked all the results so I'm not going to sya it'sa defintate when it's not, but it's pretty likely.

Well, we'll have to disagree there. I think Liger jobbed a lot more than Chono in 2003. However, part of that is inevitable - whenever Liger fights heavyweights, he is certain to job and, we have to take into account the amount of time Chono missed this year.

Thanks for correcting me on the spelling, spelling must be your strong point.

Thanks. And yes, it is my strong point. Along with judging wrestlers for not jobbing enough.

You think someone who is 'near crippled' would be able to wrestle? Again that comment is so stupid and I'm sure if you think about it you'll see why.

Yes I do. I realised that when I saw Masa Chono, barely able to walk, wrestle against Kenta Kobashi. I'm not knocking the guy, I absolutely am astounded by his passion, desire and commitment to wrestling. I just hate to think of what physically he will be like in ten years time.

Tenzan has always been the weaker of the two I'll admit that. Over the year they've become pretty much equals though and just because Tenzan doesn't mean you have to have a panic attack, what's the big deal? He was pinned, oh my god he's a wrestler, a wrestler got pinned OH MY FUCKING GOD WHAT WILL WE EVER DO???

My problem here is that it reverted to the same old trends that should have changed years ago. Tenzan should be stronger than Chono now. But you have Chono returning from a near broken neck and still not get pinned? In my opinion, that should not be. Contrast to Tenzan, who was coming off winning the IWGP Tag Belts with Nishimura. Surely it would have been best, if the NJPW side had to job, for Chono to do it?

By the way which other match was bigger then this one?

You could argue that the IWGP v/s NWF unification match was "supposed" to be bigger, hence why it was the main event. I probably wouldn't argue that, seeing as the tag match had SAPP power, but I was just saying, you could argue, ya know...

And to close, thank you for letting me argue with you, it really is an honour.

No need, good sir. It's great to have a good argument every now and then.

Oooooo, im starting to like you and your wit now so the arguments getting weaker.Someone is going to have to do a count to see who jobbed more out of Chono and Liger. Chono was injured at 5/2 not not near crippled, he's alright now.I agree to some extent about the tag match but the ending makes Tenzan seem pretty strong anyway as if I remember correctly he had Mutoh in the Anaconda Vice and they were about to tap before Sapp came in and broke it up and Powerbombed Tenzan. This still makes Tenzan look good and he could of beaten Mutoh if Sapp hadn't of got invovled.And I think your argument about Nakamura/Takayama being the bigger match is very weak. What was the biggest match of WM 18 and what was the main event. Catch my drift?Thank you very much, Dean

[wilmotd]

Man, it's by total chance I even came back into this thread considering the bigger NJPW news at the moment.But you see Mo, you bring a point totally irrelevent into a thread is it 5 pages long now?  You see?

Erm, what are you saying?Anyway, I don't see why anyone here should forget your hypocrisy. You basically put down every trader, and every trader's customer on this forum a few months back when you launched SMV-UK, and now you're telling us you'll be getting a copy of this show.We all know you're not going to buy the official DVD release from Amazon's Japan site, so that's why I felt it apt to point out your hypocrisy in this case. Just admit that you, like the rest of us, also watch tapes where money doesn't go back to 'the boys' from the money you pay for them, and you'll earn back all the respect you had this time last year. You see?

Gotta agree with Mo. It's very hypocritical of you if you do get this tape. But being the fine man you areI'm guessing you'll stand by your word and wait for the commericial release? OR if you want it quicker sign up to IWTV?

[BurningHammer]

Chono first had his neck injured in 1992It was reinjured in 1998Then again in 2003Also in 2003, he completely blew his knee out, and still felt he had to drag his bad leg down the Tokyo Dome ramp for a near half-hour match, and did not let it heal properly.Chono is far from 'all right'. He just has the stubborn pride that drives Yuji Nagata to get his face smashed in during vale tudo fights he has no hope of winning. It's the same stubborn pride that drove him to job Tenzan out to Bob Sapp and thereby defy all business sense.