Scottish Football Discussion Thread 2010/11

[Chaka Demus]

Commentators words "Walter Smith, I've never seen him so irate"

 

In all seriousness, have you? He got angry because of the way fat Mixu reacted to the challenge and ran at the referee screaming "RED CARD". A week after Walter refused to comment after he done the same thing in a league game against us.

 

I can count 2 times where I've seen Lennon overcome with rage and square go'ing an official this season and it's his first season in management. I can count the same amount of times Walter Smith has done this in a near 20 year career.

 

Man, the lengths you and seemingly half of Scotland will go to to brownnose this old bitter, pish-stained wank is really quite staggering. I had better get in line before I get "The Stare" .

 

You aren't really making any fresh points. Neil Lennon was a nutter as a player, so it stands to reason that he will be a nutter as a manager. And behave yourself, Lennon isn't "square go'ing" any officials or whatnot.

 

I just think it's funny how Lennon is the AGGRESSIVE, INTIMIDATING YOB on the touchline whereas the Man With No Surname is deified and treated as some sort of laird of the game when he has demonstrated many times in the past that he has serious temper issues when things aren't going his way.

 

Mighty fine delusion. Done your club proud.

[unfitfinlay]

Do any Celtic fans actually think a UEFA investigation will go in their favour? Platini has been very outspoken about respecting the Referees decisions, whether it's right or wrong. There's been far worse decisions in England this season as well, without even close to the same kind of outcry.

 

I think an outsider looking at things after the fact will see things differently than we have at the time too: Lennon continuing to criticise Collum even after he'd been told Collum and his family had suffered death threats, Hooper's non-sensical claim that Refs deliberately have it in for Celtic to get their names in the paper and Reid's thinly veiled attempt to turn it into a religious thing will all look really bad in hindsight. Like a concentrated campaign of intimidation.

 

Even the Dougie McDonald incident could make Celtic look bad. Can anyone honestly say that if he'd admitted that he'd simply changed his mind he would have suffered no reprisals whatsoever? Given that Collum got death threats after the Old Firm game, despite actually doing a decent job, I'd find it very hard to believe.

 

I think if UEFA do get called in, the minimum Celtic can expect is a fine, and maybe even points a deduction. At most I think a ban from Europe might be on the cards.

 

They better hope the SFA can cut a deal with the Refs.

[The Cum Doctor]

Good goals this week come from ...

 

Richie Foran ( Inverness vs. Hibernian )

Rudi Skacel ( Hearts vs. Hamilton )

David Templeton ( Hearts vs. Hamilton )

Nick Blackman ( St. Mirren vs. Motherwell )

 

Don't know why I decided to start doing this again, but we've sure seen a lot of good goals from Hearts recently, haven't we ?

[Daaaaaad!]

Man, the lengths you and seemingly half of Scotland will go to to brownnose this old bitter, pish-stained wank is really quite staggering. I had better get in line before I get "The Stare" .

 

You aren't really making any fresh points. Neil Lennon was a nutter as a player, so it stands to reason that he will be a nutter as a manager. And behave yourself, Lennon isn't "square go'ing" any officials or whatnot.

 

I just think it's funny how Lennon is the AGGRESSIVE, INTIMIDATING YOB on the touchline whereas the Man With No Surname is deified and treated as some sort of laird of the game when he has demonstrated many times in the past that he has serious temper issues when things aren't going his way.

Are you trying to fucking say that Brian Laudrup cannae play in Europe?

 

Joking aside though, I think 'bitter pish-stained wank' is a bit harsh. I'm fairly certain that a lot of Celtic fans brown-nose Tommy Burns in a similar manner, and if he was alive today I think he'd most likely be treated in a similar revered manner to WALTER! (ALL CAPS!)

[sgmilne]

You can only imagine what Lennon would have said had the Majstronovic (or whatever he's called) block on Goodwillie happened the other way.

 

Officials aren't cheats, but they basically scared to give the 'big' decisions against Rangers and Celtic in Glasgow. Any review of refereeing standards can only hurt Celtic.

[InvertedSmiley]

You can only imagine what Lennon would have said had the Majstronovic (or whatever he's called) block on Goodwillie happened the other way.

 

Officials aren't cheats, but they basically scared to give the 'big' decisions against Rangers and Celtic in Glasgow. Any review of refereeing standards can only hurt Celtic.

Nonsense. Did you see the report on Sunday which said that 80% of Scotland's 31 Category One referees failed an SFA test on the laws of the game? How could a review of that level of standards hurt any club? (Incidentally, it must be pure coincidence that the 'strike' was voted for on the evening of a report which damned all but five of our referees!)

 

An independent review of the SFA structure as a whole could only be good for Scottish football. We have Dougie McDonald admitting that he lied to the manager of a member club, in his match report and to the referee's supervisor, and his 'punishment' is decided by a committee of ex-referees. In what other walk of life - in football or elsewhere - would that even happen?

 

Another fine example of this is happening right now. Referees have voted to go on strike, yet who's being trotted out in front of the media, peddling the party line? It isn't Hugh Dallas, the country's head of referees - nope, why should he have to explain himself? - or any single one of those who have voted to take strike action, it's ex-referee's Kenny Clark and Stuart Dougal.

 

EDIT to add: Ewan Murray of The Guardian nails this current fiasco in his article today:

 

There are plenty of serious undertones to the current situation involving Scotland's top-flight referees. It is almost impossible, though, to avoid the element of total farce which surrounds it.

 

If those officials stand by their plan to strike from this weekend's games, will picket lines be in place? Will the foreign referees to which the Scottish FA has turned as a contingency measure be branded "scabs" as they enter SPL grounds? And what on earth happens if said foreigners prove rather good; will moves be afoot to retain them permanently?

 

The SFA has confirmed this morning that it is looking to Ireland and Scandinavia for replacement referees but the Irish have distanced themselves from that possibility. A similar stance seems to have been taken by the Welsh. Presumably those who are to be parachuted in will have to speak English. The SFA could always kidnap Massimo Busacca, who will take charge of Manchester United's visit to Ibrox tomorrow night, and force him to oversee Hamilton v St Mirren on Saturday.

 

The smart money is on all the SPL matches taking place this weekend. The league itself is pretty defiant on that at least. Referees, though, are equally forceful with their position that this withdrawal of labour will happen. It is a drastic move, and a rash one.

 

A contractual obligation between the SFA and the SPL means the former must supply referees to the latter. If matches are not played, with the cost implication to clubs that that involves, there is a genuine potential for legal retribution being sought from the SFA, who in turn could only reasonably seek reimbursement from the referees who have withdrawn their labour. Neil Doncaster, the SPL's chief executive, aimed the following veiled broadside towards the men in black: "We've been left with a major problem that's come about after no prior warning or discussion."

 

Motherwell's manager, Craig Brown, hardly a man known either for castigating referees or flippant remarks, has already said his club can barely afford Sunday's television match against Hearts to be postponed. And therein lies the referees' problem; in seeking sympathy, they are angering the very people within the game whose support they require.

 

Quite what Sky and ESPN make of this

[sgmilne]

I don't think the Dougie McDonald incident has anything to do with standards of refereeing. He got the decision correct. What it started out as was Lennon and Celtic were aghast that he lied about the reason for overturning the initially incorrect decision.

 

Yes, McDonald should have been reprimanded, perhaps more seriously than he has been.

 

But the debate then took the view that Celtic are the victims of 'more than their fair share of bad decisions', which is just crap. Every club gets decisions going against them, and if you were to find that every referee got every decision correct every single time then Celtic - especially at Parkhead - would find a lot more decisions went against them. We live in a footballing society where there is the general belief that 'You don't get those decisions at Ibrox or Parkhead', which is utterly ridiculous.

 

edit: I agree that refereeing standards are poor, but I don't know if that's just a Scottish thing. You hear of poor refs everywhere. You see them in World Cups, in Europe etc etc. And no, I don't really agree with the strike either.

[bAzTNM Fan]

Concerning George Peat's claims that a culture of inference/insinutation/innuendo, whatever you want to call it, has to stop - does he not realise what an absolute numpty he was being when he was clearly making inferences/insinuations/innuendos towards Celtic and specifcally, John Reid?

 

That Ewan Murray article is very well reasoned and articulated. He pretty much sums up my opinions on the matter completely.

[InvertedSmiley]

It's all Celtic and Neil Lennon's fault that our referees are abused:

 

January 1st 2010: Walter Smith was left seething after referee Willie Collum refused to rescind the red card that he dished out to the striker during Rangers

[sgmilne]

I take it you're a Celtic fan then?

 

If you can't see that this current situation is not because of Celtic, you're absolutely deluded. United were totally hard-done by in a game against Rangers at Ibrox a few years ago and Craig Levein spoke out angrily about that referee's performance. He didn't say that Dundee United were fundamentally discrimated against my 'the establishment', like Lennon hinted at and Gary Hooper came out and essentially said.

 

Celtic tried to get Hooper's comments buried because they knew it would cause a stir and it did.

 

John Reid then fanned the flames even more.

 

At the moment referees are fearing for their own safety and the safety of their families because of Celtic. You can try and kid yourselves all you like about that, but it's true.

 

[edit] But it's funny to read that list mainly involves people rightly complaining about not getting decisions against Rangers and Celtic. Who'd have thought it, eh?

[InvertedSmiley]

Ah, the good old "you must be deluded" arguement

 

Neil Lennon isn't the first football manager to criticise a referee and he wont be the last. This farce would never have reached this stage if the appropriate action was taken against Dougie Dougie when he admitted lying to an SPL manager, lying to his supervisor, attempting to convince others to play along with the lie and falsifying a match report. With McDonald still in place the SFA have left themselves wide open to criticism of their and referees integrity.

 

Craig Levein spoke out angrily about that referee's performance. He didn't say that Dundee United were fundamentally discrimated against

 

Didn't he? I guess the Times match report the following Monday must have invented this quote:

 

[Kenny McBride]

You couldn't really have Hugh Dallas trotted out to talk about it. He'd have to explain why he was sending emails that would get you severely reprimanded in ANY job, never mind one where the perception of being anti-Catholic could have literally life-threatening consequences.

 

People are always going to be paranoid that their team is getting a raw deal. Referees are always going to get pelters. That's just the way the game is. However, prior to the last couple of months you could always say "the refs are shite, but at least they're honest." That's gone now. Dougie McDonald was shown to be a liar and he let his assistant take the heat for it. Within weeks, the Hugh Dallas story came out and with still nothing done about Dougie McDonald, Celtic fans, players and management were hardly going to see it as "just one of those things." If the SFA had censured McDonald right away and done something immediately about Dallas, this whole issue would have gone away. Blaming Celtic for being pissed off about an organisation's failure to deal with a self-confessed liar and his boss who did something inconceivably stupid is crazy. If fans are giving referees shit away from the pitch, call the cops, but don't try to blame Celtic for reacting to the SFA's complete failure to address a very real concern.

 

Having said all that, I hope any scab referees get it in the neck from every single fan, player and manager this weekend. In fact, I wish the players of ALL teams, Celtic included, would have the bottle to refuse to cross the picket lines. Whether you agree with the strike or not, it's fucking bad form to scab.

[sgmilne]

He didn't in any way say Dundee United are being discriminated against. He said, like I said, that referees do not give visiting clubs the decisions at Ibrox or Parkhead because of human nature. They bottle it.

 

Here's the interview if you want to actually watch it

 

 

There is a big difference between saying that referees are frightened to give decisions against bigger clubs in their own grounds and saying that as an establishment the SFA is biased against one particular club, which is what Gary Hooper has said.

 

Dougie McDonald HAS been reprimanded. The fact he lied about why a decision was made - while no doubt wrong - isn't necessarily grounds for dismissal. If you and a workmate made a relatively minor mistake but you lied about why that mistake was made to protect your workmate, and were then SACKED for it, you'd be furious.

 

In the interview after the game against Hearts, Neil Lennon also insinuated that referees were essentially all corrupt and all of a low standard. Again, completely different from Levein.

 

And whether or not it's a police matter (and it is if they are doing these things) it won't be Celtic, John Reid or Neil lennon who are charged for it, it'll be the individual. But Celtic should know that they have a large amount of morons supporting them, and that they should be more careful with their remarks.

 

Now, you say 'Oh, the old deluded arguement', but this IS directly related to Celtic. They aren't going on strike because of something Craig Levein said 2 and a half years ago, or what other managers have said recently. It's about Celtic vs Referees. If you don't see that you ARE deluded, because it is 100% not about anyone else.

[sgmilne]

You couldn't really have Hugh Dallas trotted out to talk about it. He'd have to explain why he was sending emails that would get you severely reprimanded in ANY job, never mind one where the perception of being anti-Catholic could have literally life-threatening consequences.

 

People are always going to be paranoid that their team is getting a raw deal. Referees are always going to get pelters. That's just the way the game is. However, prior to the last couple of months you could always say "the refs are shite, but at least they're honest." That's gone now. Dougie McDonald was shown to be a liar and he let his assistant take the heat for it. Within weeks, the Hugh Dallas story came out and with still nothing done about Dougie McDonald, Celtic fans, players and management were hardly going to see it as "just one of those things." If the SFA had censured McDonald right away and done something immediately about Dallas, this whole issue would have gone away. Blaming Celtic for being pissed off about an organisation's failure to deal with a self-confessed liar and his boss who did something inconceivably stupid is crazy. If fans are giving referees shit away from the pitch, call the cops, but don't try to blame Celtic for reacting to the SFA's complete failure to address a very real concern.

 

Having said all that, I hope any scab referees get it in the neck from every single fan, player and manager this weekend. In fact, I wish the players of ALL teams, Celtic included, would have the bottle to refuse to cross the picket lines. Whether you agree with the strike or not, it's fucking bad form to scab.

 

But it's not about the Dougie McDonald incident in particular. The McDonald incident started it, but the debate has grown arms and legs with Lennon's comments after the Rangers game, Hooper's comments, Lennon's comments after the Hearts game (which were the worst of the lot) and John Reid's comments.

 

They have created an environment which makes being a referee in Scotland a thankless and potentially dangerous task.

[InvertedSmiley]

He didn't in any way say Dundee United are being discriminated against. He said, like I said, that referees do not give visiting clubs the decisions at Ibrox or Parkhead because of human nature. They bottle it.

 

Here's the interview if you want to actually watch it

 

Maybe you should try watching the interview. Craig Levein didn't once mention Celtic in it. Nice try though.

 

Now, you say 'Oh, the old deluded arguement', but this IS directly related to Celtic. They aren't going on strike because of something Craig Levein said 2 and a half years ago, or what other managers have said recently. It's about Celtic vs Referees. If you don't see that you ARE deluded, because it is 100% not about anyone else.

Ah, so it's alright for other managers in Scotland to criticise referees - and I've posted links previously in this threat to articles where every other manager in the SPL has criticised a referee - but it isn't alright for Neil Lennon to do it? That's essentially what you are saying?