General politics discussion thread

[David]

I think it's fair enough to pick their battles, so long as they aren't saying that they are not, in principle, ideologically opposed to all those other fascist groups that you've mentioned.

Have they ever actually addressed groups such as MAC or I4UK? I don't think I've ever seen or heard them say anything about those groups, much less condemning them for their deplorable views.

 

A quick look at the UAF website would suggest to me that they don't really oppose any fascist groups except the BNP & EDL.

 

I think a difference is for the most part MAC believe in what they are doing is right (in a twisted way) whereas a lot of the EDL just do it for a punch up and in reality don't give a flying fig about England.

You think so? I believe that there are plenty of EDL members who believe that what they're doing is right as well (in just as twisted a way).

 

Edited September 12, 2011 by David

[Smeg_&_The_Heads]

You think so? I believe that there are plenty of EDL members who believe that what they're doing is right as well (in just as twisted a way).

 

I think some have been brain washed (the same way a lot of MAC have been ) but I think a lot of them are football hooligans who have to find something to do now they've been banned from going to matches.

 

[Kiffy]

Thank you.

 

 

Of course it doesn't, but it does raise the question of why UAF aren't united against all forms of fascism.

 

Possibly, but it's something of a red herring in so far as alot of the times when I've been highly critical of the EDL you've countered with points relating to the UAF. I don't have a big UAF sig, I'm not on here to promote the UAF, I have no doubt that there are things within the UAF I'd disagree with or do differently.

And I'm sure they're not perfect, and I do take on board your point that they could highlight their ideological opposition to the cause of I4UK and all the rest more strongly.

However, as chest so rightly pointed out, one has to look at these things contextually. If you're part of the UAF you're actively trying to fight against facism, so you have to look at where your actions can do most good. If the tabloid press, the secret service, the government and the USA are all actively involved in combating muslim extremism, and the muslim extremist demo's are absoloutely tiny. You may think that they represent a poor usage of your time and efforts.

If you then see that the BNP have euro mp's, local mp's and at one time looked like they might get a seat in the houses of parliament. Then you further see that the EDL is causing havoc in muslim areas, can get over a 1,000 people at their demonstrations, and is growing in popularity without the same amount of clamping down by the auuthorities. It would seem obvious to focus on them.

[Smeg_&_The_Heads]

I wonder if the media not covering MAC or I4UK as much recently is they have realized that the rise of the EDL is in part down to them and they have created a monster they can no longer control so they don't want to throw any more fuel on the all ready out of control fire.

 

[David]

Possibly, but it's something of a red herring in so far as alot of the times when I've been highly critical of the EDL you've countered with points relating to the UAF.

I'm not trying to counter anything, especially when it comes to the EDL. Trust me, as an independence-supporting Scottish Socialist the EDL (or the SDL up here) are pretty far down my Christmas card list.

 

I just question UAF as well, that's all.

[Kiffy]

You think so? I believe that there are plenty of EDL members who believe that what they're doing is right as well (in just as twisted a way).

 

I'm sure the vast majority do, one doesn't like to engage with him (one shouldn't in fact, but it is important to the point) but take big mickey. Now I don't think he'd like to think of himself as racist or against somebody based on their religion, that's why he wouldn't vote BNP, but I do think he needs something in his life to give it a bit of meaning.

Now his ego would never accept he goes out to give muslims a hard time because left to his own devices he's lonely and depressed and needs something to give himself some self of importance and belonging. So he'll post quite happily that he believes sharia law could happen, and that the EDL is only against extremism.

I think he may be one of the sadder examples, there's no doubt being involved with the EDL will bring in some excitment and comraderie and sense of belonging, of fightiing an important fight and all the rest. And if he can convince himself it's a worthy and noble thing to do, then there's no sense of guilt to go with it. Then he's a soldier, marching to defend England, and it's important and right and proper, and it gives him a sense of self worth he just didn't have before.

The adrenalin, the friendship, the excitment, the being part of a cause. He can't accept it's all for nothing because his self worth is rapped up in it. It's why he was accusiing me earlier of just going along to cause trouble and not caring about Muslims. Not because that's actually why I'm politically active against far right organisations. But because that's why he is part of a far right organisation, and some part of him recognises that, even if it's only to then judge others by his own standards.

And nothing I say to him on here, nothing anyone says, will get through. Because without it he has nothing, so it must be right.

Now there's variations of that story throughout far right politics, be they EDL I4UK or whatever it might be, most of these people will have convinced themselves that what they are doing is right.

And to be fair I have no doubt you'll find examples of it in the left as well.

 

[Kiffy]

I'm not trying to counter anything, especially when it comes to the EDL. Trust me, as an independence-supporting Scottish Socialist the EDL (or the SDL up here) are pretty far down my Christmas card list.

 

I just question UAF as well, that's all.

 

Didn't I read on here you voted for the BNP? If it wasn't you my apologies.

[Chris B]

I'm not trying to counter anything, especially when it comes to the EDL. Trust me, as an independence-supporting Scottish Socialist the EDL (or the SDL up here) are pretty far down my Christmas card list.

 

I just question UAF as well, that's all.

 

As well?

 

To be honest, you don't seem to question the EDL or the SDL very much in these kind of threads. I'm not saying you do support them, but you seem to come across as far more anti-UAF than anti-EDL.

[David]

To be honest, you don't seem to question the EDL or the SDL very much in these kind of threads. I'm not saying you do support them, but you seem to come across as far more anti-UAF than anti-EDL.

What is there to question though, really? Isn't it pretty plain what they stand for and what they do? Or is that still up for debate?

[big mickey]

Possibly, but it's something of a red herring in so far as alot of the times when I've been highly critical of the EDL you've countered with points relating to the UAF. I don't have a big UAF sig, I'm not on here to promote the UAF, I have no doubt that there are things within the UAF I'd disagree with or do differently.

And I'm sure they're not perfect, and I do take on board your point that they could highlight their ideological opposition to the cause of I4UK and all the rest more strongly.

However, as chest so rightly pointed out, one has to look at these things contextually. If you're part of the UAF you're actively trying to fight against facism, so you have to look at where your actions can do most good. If the tabloid press, the secret service, the government and the USA are all actively involved in combating muslim extremism, and the muslim extremist demo's are absoloutely tiny. You may think that they represent a poor usage of your time and efforts.

If you then see that the BNP have euro mp's, local mp's and at one time looked like they might get a seat in the houses of parliament. Then you further see that the EDL is causing havoc in muslim areas, can get over a 1,000 people at their demonstrations, and is growing in popularity without the same amount of clamping down by the auuthorities. It would seem obvious to focus on them.

 

No offence mate, but don't give up your day job mate, Psychology really isn't for you.

 

Also a very simple reason people don't want to oppose MAC or suchlike is they don't want to be classed or percieved as a racist.

 

[Kiffy]

In other news, banking reforms are going through. Essentially the trading floors and public banking will be split up. Which I think is fantastic.

Won't kick in till 2019 though, and that could be a massive problem, the issue with various european bonds, particularly Italy's but many others is likely to blow up long before that. And if that happens, there may not be much left of the banking system in 2019.

[David]

In other news, banking reforms are going through. Essentially the trading floors and public banking will be split up. Which I think is fantastic.

Won't kick in till 2019 though, and that could be a massive problem, the issue with various european bonds, particularly Italy's but many others is likely to blow up long before that. And if that happens, there may not be much left of the banking system in 2019.

Is there any particular reason why it won't kick in until 2019 Kiffy?

[Kiffy]

No offence mate, but don't give up your day job mate, Psychology really isn't for you.

 

Also a very simple reason people don't want to oppose MAC or suchlike is they don't want to be classed or percieved as a racist.

 

With the exception of the UAF, who I don't really keep up with so will take your word for it. Whon doesn't oppose them? Pretty sure they're as universally unpopular as your lot!

 

Is there any particular reason why it won't kick in until 2019 Kiffy?

 

That's the time scale given to the banks by the government, the banks don't want this, so I imagine that's how long they'll make it take to happen.

[Smeg_&_The_Heads]

There's been much written in today's newspapers about the rival clashes between equally obnoxious extremist groups outside of the American Embassy in London yesterday.

 

Muslims Against Crusades (MAC) and the EDL clashed on a number of occasions at separate locations around central London resulting in dozens of arrests.

 

While the MAC were outside of the American embassy in a provocative and tasteless demonstration, a ceremony was taking place to remember the 67 British victims of the 9/11 terrorist attacks in 2001.

 

Not to be outdone, the EDL turned up swigging cans of lager and shouting racist abuse. This was, apparently, their attempt to restore dignity to the solemnity of the ceremony and to "defend" the memory of those people who died.

 

Hope Not Hate has long said that MAC & EDL are exactly the same disease as each other. We condemn them both. Neither represents either the religions or the flags or the communities who they claim to speak for, represent or defend.

 

What is interesting however, is the claim that two EDL members were stabbed by Muslims. It managed to make quite a few of the reports of the event as the EDL-having further disgraced themselves and their country's national flag-went for some kind of martyrdom of their own, possibly to match even the supposed hunger strike of their mini-Fuhrer Tommy Robinson.

 

The truth however is far more interesting. There would appear to be an actual absence of the two victims. Their stabbings have been reported in newspapers, but apparently not to either the police or indeed, hospitals.

 

The EDL of course, never let truth get in the way of their constant campaign of violence and lies directed against the Muslim community. Serial racist and moron Bill Baker of Essex is already writing that it is now "open season on all Muslims". No doubt that was the real intent behind the news of the mysterious stabbings.

 

The EDL were led in London yesterday by UDA run-away Leon McCreery, the man who once covered his face to threaten to burn down Hope Not Hate's offices.

 

It looks like Leon has had to move to the south of England having upset some members of the Infidels, the EDL break away group. He's just been named by members of the group as their "most wanted".

Credit> http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/article...-missing-knives

Edited September 12, 2011 by Smeg_&_The_Heads

[big mickey]

Oh look, HNH shifting the focus to suit them as usual

 

Is anyone shocked? I ain't