Kiffy

Take off the tinfoil, pick up a copy of Private Eye and join the real world. The X Files was a great show, but it's not a substitute for an actual life.

That's a very, very good point.

Here's a conspiracy for ya all, 5% of the population currently control half of all wealth, the last I don't know how many but many many prime ministers come from that 5%, and do more to protect it than they'll ever do to protect the other 95% of people they represent.

And another one, we only go to war to liberate countries with an oil supply.

You don't need an illuminati holding you down, you've got an obvious answer right in front of you.

Sure there's more but one glaring bit of bullshit was the point that

"It is a principle of Islam, common to all four schools of the religion, that there can be no secular authority that takes precedence over Islamic law."

Which is all very good fuel to the fire of the EDL and various others but, actually, it's bollocks. The Muslim faith specifically states that when living in someone else's country, you should respect and adhere to the laws of their land.

Now of course the muslim faith will say it's laws are to be obeyed, in the same way the christian and jewish and all the other religions do. But it's only the Muslim faith that specifies adherring to the laws of the land you are in.

Although facts like that, and no doubt many others destroying any worth contained in that article, would ruin the enjoyment for big Mickey. Because he needs muslims to be the bad guys to justify his actions.

Not so much, no. It was BNP members who had grown disillusioned with the party and wanted something alternative to the BNP.

I realise you probably have to believe that, not even gonna do the whole angry thing. Just feel sorry for you.

Well maybe not the BNP with a new name but whoever starts up next will get a lot of the old BNP members involved maybe even get Nick Griffin to work with them so it may as well be BNP mark 2.

Griffins fucked, he's hated by the moderates who don't wanna be nazi's and hated by the nazi's for selling out, he'll be out of british politics within the next five years.

UKIP would, I'd imagine, take alot of the floating political support of the BNP, cos they're a bit mental and little england, but the link with the national front will get broken and they'll be alot more moderate.

S progress there.

Thankfully the National Front have become a sad relic with no political footing whatsoever & the news that the BNP are facing the end does bode pretty well for the EDL, as we've never classed ourselves as an "all White" movement, nor should we and hopefully we can take advantage and stop being linked with them & have no part of whoever inevitably replace them.

 

Believe it or not there are many members of the EDL who want no part of any BNP or NF association.

Which is ridicously ironic, as the EDL was created by BNP activists to help create racial tensions and further their cause.

But to be fair the EDL BNP and other white racist groups are all linked and now the EDL are classed as a terrorist group if the EDL did get banned they would just restart under a new name.

 

The BNP is getting closed down soon and I expect them to return with a new name.

Ya think? I have to say I think the reaason they've run out of cash and lost most of their councillors and generally got shut down is more of a problem than just a name change can sort out. What griffin did very well was sell the BNP as an alternative to mainstream political parties while underplaying it's links to the national front. That ended up splitting it apart when he got exposed on newsnight while alienating alot of his key support. I'd say they're done as a political force, under any more, and I'm very pleased about that.

But the flipside is the EDL will pick up alot of what the BNP had, so while politics will be a little less repgugnant, the street movement of the far right will pick up some steam.

Of course we've yet to see where the economy goes, and how bad the current crisis is going to become. If it goes as badly as I fear it might, a rise in the EDL and a new version of the BNP is quite plausable, worryingly.

No offence mate, but don't give up your day job mate, Psychology really isn't for you.

 

Also a very simple reason people don't want to oppose MAC or suchlike is they don't want to be classed or percieved as a racist.

With the exception of the UAF, who I don't really keep up with so will take your word for it. Whon doesn't oppose them? Pretty sure they're as universally unpopular as your lot!

Is there any particular reason why it won't kick in until 2019 Kiffy?

That's the time scale given to the banks by the government, the banks don't want this, so I imagine that's how long they'll make it take to happen.

In other news, banking reforms are going through. Essentially the trading floors and public banking will be split up. Which I think is fantastic.

Won't kick in till 2019 though, and that could be a massive problem, the issue with various european bonds, particularly Italy's but many others is likely to blow up long before that. And if that happens, there may not be much left of the banking system in 2019.

I'm not trying to counter anything, especially when it comes to the EDL. Trust me, as an independence-supporting Scottish Socialist the EDL (or the SDL up here) are pretty far down my Christmas card list.

 

I just question UAF as well, that's all.

Didn't I read on here you voted for the BNP? If it wasn't you my apologies.

You think so? I believe that there are plenty of EDL members who believe that what they're doing is right as well (in just as twisted a way).

I'm sure the vast majority do, one doesn't like to engage with him (one shouldn't in fact, but it is important to the point) but take big mickey. Now I don't think he'd like to think of himself as racist or against somebody based on their religion, that's why he wouldn't vote BNP, but I do think he needs something in his life to give it a bit of meaning.

Now his ego would never accept he goes out to give muslims a hard time because left to his own devices he's lonely and depressed and needs something to give himself some self of importance and belonging. So he'll post quite happily that he believes sharia law could happen, and that the EDL is only against extremism.

I think he may be one of the sadder examples, there's no doubt being involved with the EDL will bring in some excitment and comraderie and sense of belonging, of fightiing an important fight and all the rest. And if he can convince himself it's a worthy and noble thing to do, then there's no sense of guilt to go with it. Then he's a soldier, marching to defend England, and it's important and right and proper, and it gives him a sense of self worth he just didn't have before.

The adrenalin, the friendship, the excitment, the being part of a cause. He can't accept it's all for nothing because his self worth is rapped up in it. It's why he was accusiing me earlier of just going along to cause trouble and not caring about Muslims. Not because that's actually why I'm politically active against far right organisations. But because that's why he is part of a far right organisation, and some part of him recognises that, even if it's only to then judge others by his own standards.

And nothing I say to him on here, nothing anyone says, will get through. Because without it he has nothing, so it must be right.

Now there's variations of that story throughout far right politics, be they EDL I4UK or whatever it might be, most of these people will have convinced themselves that what they are doing is right.

And to be fair I have no doubt you'll find examples of it in the left as well.

Thank you.

 

 

Of course it doesn't, but it does raise the question of why UAF aren't united against all forms of fascism.

Possibly, but it's something of a red herring in so far as alot of the times when I've been highly critical of the EDL you've countered with points relating to the UAF. I don't have a big UAF sig, I'm not on here to promote the UAF, I have no doubt that there are things within the UAF I'd disagree with or do differently.

And I'm sure they're not perfect, and I do take on board your point that they could highlight their ideological opposition to the cause of I4UK and all the rest more strongly.

However, as chest so rightly pointed out, one has to look at these things contextually. If you're part of the UAF you're actively trying to fight against facism, so you have to look at where your actions can do most good. If the tabloid press, the secret service, the government and the USA are all actively involved in combating muslim extremism, and the muslim extremist demo's are absoloutely tiny. You may think that they represent a poor usage of your time and efforts.

If you then see that the BNP have euro mp's, local mp's and at one time looked like they might get a seat in the houses of parliament. Then you further see that the EDL is causing havoc in muslim areas, can get over a 1,000 people at their demonstrations, and is growing in popularity without the same amount of clamping down by the auuthorities. It would seem obvious to focus on them.

I'm not talking about the media though, I'm talking about groups such as UAF. Surely groups like MAC & Islam4UK can be considered fascist in their beliefs, no?

 

If the answer is yes, then surely their name implies that they would be against such organisations just as much as they are against the BNP/EDL?

 

 

The definition of fascist as far as I can see is "Extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice", which would mean that such groups as MAC & I4UK should be grouped with the EDL/BNP.

That's a fair point, they should be.

But it's largely irrelevant to the greater debate in regards to the EDL. Even if uaf should be doing more to counter these forms of facism, it doesn't in anyway justify or excuse the actions of the EDL.

One could be forgiven for getting the impression that UAF should really be called Unite Against White Fascism, couldn't they? What's good for one bunch of cunts is surely good enough for another?

Not sure that you could really call I4UK fascists, religous extremists certainly but I don't think they actually qualify as fascists.

And the counter to that argument would be that the only fascism that could possibly come to pass in this country is white facism, as the vast majority in the country are still white.

But again, not part of the UAF meself, and would be quite happy to hear that both sets of cunts had been wiped off the face of the planet, while I have a fair few sympathies with the UAF I'm not posting on behalf of the UAF, simply against the EDL. So no matter what the general theory is in regards to the UAF, it doesn't really affect my arguments against the EDL.

Hee, yeah that was a bit wordy, tried to give a bit more understanding into what groups like the UAF are, and the reasoning behind it.

But no, no they don't, quite frankly I think they should speak out against it more, but I don't see alot of point in them counter demonstrating I4UK at the moment.

Before you go, Kiffy, maybe you can answer a quick question.

 

I've seen plenty of Facebook events for the UAF and organising against the EDL/SDL, but do those same groups stage counter-protests against such groups as MAC & Islam4UK?

Happy too, I should point out though that I'm not a member of UAF and don't know a huge amount about them. I have done work with the hope not hate campaign involving flyering against the BNP and obviously still get their newsletters and such so I can offer more in terms of them than the UAF.

But, without pretending I'm part of them or can speak for them, the UAF exist to fight facism, they originally formed to fight the national front (as I understand it, could be wrong). Then the bnp gained in popularity while the national front very nearly died, so they shifted their focus.

Fast forward to now and the BNP are dying but there's a massive rise in a new street protest group called the EDL, who originally counter protested against the MAC, I4UK etc. But very quickly the EDL's protests moved away from protesting only the extremisits, and moved into protesting in heavily muslim areas just because they had large numbers of muslims. In addition to this they started to protest at the opening of mosques, it very quickly became clear that the EDL as a group was an anti-muslim organisation, funded and created by BNP activists to allow racial intimidation and attacks not seen in this country for many years. So they went after that, cos that's what they do.

MAC and I4UK are alot smaller than the EDL or the BNP, or the national front of old. They don't represent anything like the threat to equality that the EDL do. They're religous extremists, of course, but attacking religous extremism was never the aim of the UAF. As an example mary whitehouse was a mental religous extremist, and if her views had been made law we'd live in a much more repressive and boring society. Just as if sharia law came in, we'd live in a much more repressive and boring society, but neither could happen, so it's not entirely worth worrying about.

As offensive as I4UK is, it's not turning up en mass in white areas and racially abusing people for being white. If it did I'd say we would be more likely to see UAF protest against it.

So that's (what I know of) the history. However, I said on the page before, it's not how I'd do it. I think I4UK should be linked on the hope not hate's homepage as a hate group, I think the same about MAC.

Would counter protesting by the UAF against muslims extremists make sense? Before the EDL existed it might have done, at this point it would do more harm than good. I'm against I4UK, but if I'm standing next to a guy with "Fuck allah," written on a placard next to me I'm equally against him. It would be a knightmare to police, it would kick off worse than it already does, and honestly, groups like I4UK are so small, and so heavily monitored by the authorites, that they're increasinly unlikely to ever manage to do any harm.

Whereas the EDL does harm on every march and static demonstration it puts on.

Didn't we already have a thread that consisted of Big Mickey talking shit, and then having Kiffy respond with "You hate pakis and niggers", "You hate pakis and niggers", "You hate pakis and niggers", over and over again, for 50 pages?.

 

 

 

Do we really need another?.

Fair point, I'm clearly not doing well with the self restraint here, I'll move on.

Well no, not really, the sun reported the MAC lot today, in the same way it reported your lot.

And if not, really, you've only got yourselves to blame. No matter how foul the cause of the MAC and islam4uk is, they manage to have their stupid little protests and march's without the need for 100's of thousands of pounds to police them, and they're pretty much always non-violent. But when the media did give them loads of attention it was exactly what they were looking for, it made a tiny number of insane muslims look like a serious far reaching problem, it gave them more publicity than they could ever have dreamed of.

And what happened? People as stupid as you and yours ended up fucking believing it, and now every few weekends we've got a few hundred drunk skinheads marching under the banner of EDL to protect a country that's 94% non-muslim from being taken over by Sharia law.

There was a huge media bias against Muslims in the tabloids for years. Cos it sold papers, but then it created idiots like you who couldn't see past the headlines and understand what was actually happening.

But the media bias against the EDL, isn't part of some huge conspiracy, you're just a bunch of cunts, and it's nigh on impossible for the media to report on you without highlighting you're a bunch of cunts. And when you assault and set fire to the media that come out to cover your static protests, you really don't do anything to change that.

There's no conspiracy, no media cover ups, there's just a bunch of cunts (you) and another bunch of cunts (the extremist muslim types) and the reason everyone hates both of you, is that you're a bunch of cunts.

Really can't be any clearer than that.

If I walked around peckham tomorrow with a big ol placard saying "Fuck niggers," and I got fucked up, I'd have it coming.

And the irony here old boy, is that the EDL was set up to oppose, violently in most cases, extremist muslims point of view. You can't have it both ways, if you're pro people being allowed to do and say what they want, you can't then violently protest people for doing just that.

Sooo, it's ok to stab people, maybe even kill them because you don't like what they say?

 

So saying "Fuck Allah" in a Muslim area gives the people of the area freedom to commit violent acts?

 

Clown.

No of course it's not, don't be silly. It's illegal and rightly so.

But if you insist on being a cunt, chances are at some point someone will take exception, and quite frankly you'll have had it coming. That's not legal, but it is life fella.

By the same token, if a couple of UAF members got in the faces of some EDL members and they got stabbed, they'd deserve it too?

Well no, the other side of the EDL coin is not the UAF, much as they'd like to paint it as such. The other side is the MAC or islam4uk or any of those bunch of twats. And yeah, if during them trying to fuck up a rememberance day for a tragedy which saw 1,000's killed they got sliced for their troubles, they'd fucking deserve it, and I've already said that.

While I wouldn't necessarily condone every action of every member of the UAF, they are fighting the bad guys, which is a pretty reasonable thing to be doing, and doesn't mean they deserve stabbing.

Unless of course a couple of UAF members decided to walk round muslim areas with big signs saying fuck allah, or something equally pleasant, in which case - by the same token - they'd probaly have it coming.

Out of interest, how does one become a member of the EDL? Is it a case of paying a membership fee and filling out forms? Or do you just turn up to a march/protest?

Mickey could probably tell you better than I, but as far as I'm aware it's just find your local branch and join up on facebook or whatever it might be, or know someone who'll take you along if you want to be part of the coachtrips and all that jazz.

Or you can just turn up and join in.

Alot of their support comes from football firms, so if you're well known for beating the shit out of people who follow a different team you'll have a bit of a leg up.

Yesterday is what the EDL do, it's what they were set up to do, it's what they do every town they go to, it's what they are. If you didn't agree with it, you don't really agree with the EDL. And that's where the intelligence/sanity debate comes in. If you support them, you support what they are, yesterday is what they are. And quite frankly, yeah, the two who got stabbed had it coming, and so would the MAC twats if they'd got cut too.

Where exactly have I supported anything that happened yesterday?

 

Who can be happy about people getting stabbed? What the fuck??

 

Oh and look someone else on the intelligence kick..

Where did you support what happened yesterday? You may not be aware of this, but just underneath the words you write on here, a big sig saying "EDL" comes up. This kind of thing may just be related to the questionning of your intelligence, or it may be another example of a media and government conspiracy to bring in Sharia law, it's very tricky to know for sure.

It was in the sun, today, unusually well balanced report actually. They mentioned a group of muslim extremists tried to fuck the whole thing up, and a far right extremist group did much the same.

They also mentioned a seperate protest by Muslims a way away, protesting against the actions of the extremists who don't represent their religion. Needless to say the group that came out best of the three was the moderate Muslims, who by all accounts conducted a non-violent non inflamatory protest which did them and their religion great credit.

I wouldn't have an issue with that, but the problem I have is that the same people who attend the anti-EDL/SDL marches that would agree with you are usually the first to stand up and start wringing their hands when a kiddie fiddler gets fucked up in prison or gets a doing in the street.

What are you actually basing that on? Not entirely sure there's a provable link with being anti racist scum and fighting for the rights of paedophiles.

In fact I'd go so far as to say you're talking ill informed bollocks.

But let's say it's true, so what? I'm just me, I'm not speaking for every person that's anti-edl. I know there are people who disagree with the EDL who are not so violently opposed to them, and feel there are lines one shouldn't cross. I see people who are keen to educate and help EDL members as they see them as products of society and their own mental illness's and might well be as sympathetic to paedophiles in the same way.

But I'm not one, and most aren't from what I've seen.