Chris Benoit dead

[Loligan]

They did not push muscled up roiders. There was zero incentive for hitting the roids and pushing your body far past it's natural weight because Heyman did not push people based on their size.

All the large wrestlers were making big money in WCW or the WWF. Heyman pushed Sid when he briefly came in, Mike Awesome became World Champion, Benoit & Guerrero were given pushes, as were the Pitbulls. Raven & Sandman admitted to being steroid users. I would imagine that as many of the ECW roster were on steroids as in any other promotion.

There's a big difference though. Sandman and Raven were not pushed because they used steroids and got huge. If they chose to do them, that's their call really, but they were not rewarded for doing them and they were not pressured into doing them to secure their' spots.

Exactly it is their call! These guys are fully grown adults and are well aware of the dangers involved. Do you honestly believe Vince McMahon walks around handing out steroids backstage, ordering people to take them or they will be buried? Get real!and while you are correct in stating that Lashley is getting pushed, Chris Masters and Gene Snitsky are nothing more than pin fodder. Your example of The Sandman could be equalled by Mankind. He was fat, yet McMahon pushed him to the moon.

[Kenny McBride]

You don't think that anyone in the company who might have been reconsidering their drug use these past couple of weeks might have looked at the first Raw and Smackdown after Benoit's death and said "hmmmm...Lashley and Batista getting pushed? Well there's an incentive to develop my verbal and in-ring storytelling skills, safe in the knowledge that even if my physique isn't superhuman, I'll still be adequately rewarded for the vast array of skills I do bring to the table?"

 

McMahon doesn't HAVE to tell anyone to take steroids. The culture is so ingrained and so constantly reinforced by the wrestlers he chooses to push that the guys know the score. And in case they forget, they've always got the memory of Vince publically slagging off guys who have lost their physiques on national TV.

[Dirty Eddie]

Your example of The Sandman could be equalled by Mankind. He was fat, yet McMahon pushed him to the moon.

Oh come off it!!ECW was full of guys with less than superman builds (who were allowed to work to their strengths and get over);RavenSandmanCactus JackMikey WhipwreckTommy DreamerJustin CredibleSteve CorinoThe DudleysTajiriReyPsychosisJuviMalenkoSabuRVDNew JackBallsBlah blah blah... Heyman brought guys in because they had shown themselves to have great wrestling ability, a winning gimmick, loads of charisma/mic skills, or a combination of these. Vince hires young, good-looking types with great builds and hopes he can turn them into wrestlers. The fact that Mick Foley both 1) got over a gimmick that could quite easily have bombed and 2) nearly killed himself by taking masses of insane bumps, meant that McMahon had to push him!! I can't fathom how anyone could argue that ECW was as size/build obsessed as WWF/E ???

[Loligan]

So by your logic Vince should not push well build wrestlers to deter other wrestlers out of doing steroids? What would you suggest? Pushing smaller guys? he did that already. In fact in the last 6 years McMahon has made World heavyweight champions out of 3 guys who within the last 10 years had held cruiserweight titles in other companies.

[MRMIdAS]

OK, OFFICIALY WWE does not push wrestlers based on size, however, the last smaller man to get a decent push was mysterio, and they dropped that quicker than an asbestos time bomb.in WWE, SIZE MATTERS, therefore, the wrestlers feel they HAVE to have a massive, superhuman physique to get a push.in ECW, you got pushed if you were over.simple as.

[Loligan]

Your example of The Sandman could be equalled by Mankind. He was fat, yet McMahon pushed him to the moon.

Oh come off it!!ECW was full of guys with less than superman builds (who were allowed to work to their strengths and get over);RavenSandmanCactus JackMikey WhipwreckTommy DreamerJustin CredibleSteve CorinoThe DudleysTajiriReyPsychosisJuviMalenkoSabuRVDNew JackBallsBlah blah blah... Heyman brought guys in because they had shown themselves to have great wrestling ability, a winning gimmick, loads of charisma/mic skills, or a combination of these. Vince hires young, good-looking types with great builds and hopes he can turn them into wrestlers. The fact that Mick Foley both 1) got over a gimmick that could quite easily have bombed and 2) nearly killed himself by taking masses of insane bumps, meant that McMahon had to push him!! I can't fathom how anyone could argue that ECW was as size/build obsessed as WWF/E ???

Well you pretty much listed the entire roster of the old ECW there. I am not saying ECW was size obsessed at all but you mentioned that a fat guy could get over and main event in ECW as if it was exclusive to them. All I'm saying is that WWE has examples of this as well. WWE does hire a lot of big men but its not a pre requisite for making it to the top as history proves. ECW hired misfits and rejects because nobody else wanted them until they got to ECW. They accentuated the positives which is why ECW worked so well (for a while)

[unfitfinlay]

So by your logic Vince should not push well build wrestlers to deter other wrestlers out of doing steroids? What would you suggest? Pushing smaller guys? he did that already. In fact in the last 6 years McMahon has made World heavyweight champions out of 3 guys who within the last 10 years had held cruiserweight titles in other companies.

Right. After they took a massive amount of steroids to get themselves the right "look". Of the three (I'm assuming you mean, Benoit, Mysterio and Guerrero?) two are dead and the other reportedly has serious problems with his heart...I really think you are misunderstanding what people are saying. No one is suggesting that Vince stop pushing well built wrestlers but he certainly needs to stop pushing those who are quite clearly using steroids in order to get that look. Particularly since a LOT of those guys are severly limited in the ring (Chris Masters, Lashley, Batista).There are plenty of guys in WWE who are over despite not having huge, unnatural builds. Why can't they push someone like Matt Hardy as a Main Eventer for a while? It would certainly make more sense than Kane getting a Title shot anyway. Edited July 8, 2007 by unfitfinlay

[thefallenangel]

Your example of The Sandman could be equalled by Mankind. He was fat, yet McMahon pushed him to the moon.

Oh come off it!!ECW was full of guys with less than superman builds (who were allowed to work to their strengths and get over);RavenSandmanCactus JackMikey WhipwreckTommy DreamerJustin CredibleSteve CorinoThe DudleysTajiriReyPsychosisJuviMalenkoSabuRVDNew JackBallsBlah blah blah... Heyman brought guys in because they had shown themselves to have great wrestling ability, a winning gimmick, loads of charisma/mic skills, or a combination of these. Vince hires young, good-looking types with great builds and hopes he can turn them into wrestlers. The fact that Mick Foley both 1) got over a gimmick that could quite easily have bombed and 2) nearly killed himself by taking masses of insane bumps, meant that McMahon had to push him!! I can't fathom how anyone could argue that ECW was as size/build obsessed as WWF/E ???

Well you pretty much listed the entire roster of the old ECW there. I am not saying ECW was size obsessed at all but you mentioned that a fat guy could get over and main event in ECW as if it was exclusive to them. All I'm saying is that WWE has examples of this as well. WWE does hire a lot of big men but its not a pre requisite for making it to the top as history proves. ECW hired misfits and rejects because nobody else wanted them until they got to ECW. They accentuated the positives which is why ECW worked so well (for a while)

ECW for the record would of lasted a lot longer if Heyman didn't try to control ECW by himself and didn't have guys disappearing left, right and center. Anyway on topic WWE doesn't push guys on size then explain to me Khali, Snitsky,Big show? They all were there because of their size only. The biggest guy in ECW was Sal E. who wasn't pushed at all. And wasn't Raven wanted by WWE as Johhny Polo but he left them just like Douglas left WCW? People could get over but WWE couldn't book them properly. In theory signing Paul Heyman would of been a lot easier.

[unfitfinlay]

Anyway on topic WWE doesn't push guys on size then explain to me Khali, Snitsky,Big show? They all were there because of their size only. The biggest guy in ECW was Sal E. who wasn't pushed at all. And wasn't Raven wanted by WWE as Johhny Polo but he left them just like Douglas left WCW? People could get over but WWE couldn't book them properly. In theory signing Paul Heyman would of been a lot easier.

Ironically, the WWF wanted Raven but only as a manager and producer because they thought he was too small to be a wrestler.

[thefallenangel]

Anyway on topic WWE doesn't push guys on size then explain to me Khali, Snitsky,Big show? They all were there because of their size only. The biggest guy in ECW was Sal E. who wasn't pushed at all. And wasn't Raven wanted by WWE as Johhny Polo but he left them just like Douglas left WCW? People could get over but WWE couldn't book them properly. In theory signing Paul Heyman would of been a lot easier.

Ironically, the WWF wanted Raven but only as a manager and producer because they thought he was too small to be a wrestler.

not the point i was trying to make but it's better for the discussion

[Dirty Eddie]

Well you pretty much listed the entire roster of the old ECW there.

Exactly, that was the whole point (smashes self in head with hammer). ECW proved that modern fans (yes I know it was a while ago, but it was still after the WWF's muscle-obsessed 80's) will accept wrestlers who are not 6'4 and 260lbs, if they have talent and are booked well. If WCW had not shown that guys like Jericho and Rey can get over huge, there is no way that Vince would have plucked them from the Indys/Mexico and pushed them - simply because he will never take a chance on smaller wrestlers. Edited July 8, 2007 by Dirty Eddie

[Happ Hazzard]

Well you pretty much listed the entire roster of the old ECW there.

Exactly, that was the whole point (smashes self in head with hammer). ECW proved that modern fans (yes I know it was a while ago, but it was still after the WWF's muscle-obsessed 80's) will accept wrestlers who are not 6'4 and 260lbs, if they have talent and are booked well. If WCW had not shown that guys like Jericho and Rey can get over huge, there is no way that Vince would have plucked them from the Indys/Mexico and pushed them - simply because he will never take a chance on smaller wrestlers.

Bret Hart won the WWF world title in 1992.

[Loligan]

Well you pretty much listed the entire roster of the old ECW there.

Exactly, that was the whole point (smashes self in head with hammer). ECW proved that modern fans (yes I know it was a while ago, but it was still after the WWF's muscle-obsessed 80's) will accept wrestlers who are not 6'4 and 260lbs, if they have talent and are booked well. If WCW had not shown that guys like Jericho and Rey can get over huge, there is no way that Vince would have plucked them from the Indys/Mexico and pushed them - simply because he will never take a chance on smaller wrestlers.

Bret Hart won the WWF world title in 1992.

Beat me to it. Shawn Michaels (who was smaller) won the same title in 1996. These 2 are held responsable for opening the doors for guys like Chris Jericho and Chris Benoit and Eddy Guerrero and Rey Mysterio. Doors they have since walked through and made it to the top. Regardless of how well they did or how they were booked, they were all at one point given the main stage of the WWE.

[Dirty Eddie]

Well you pretty much listed the entire roster of the old ECW there.

Exactly, that was the whole point (smashes self in head with hammer). ECW proved that modern fans (yes I know it was a while ago, but it was still after the WWF's muscle-obsessed 80's) will accept wrestlers who are not 6'4 and 260lbs, if they have talent and are booked well. If WCW had not shown that guys like Jericho and Rey can get over huge, there is no way that Vince would have plucked them from the Indys/Mexico and pushed them - simply because he will never take a chance on smaller wrestlers.

Bret Hart won the WWF world title in 1992.

That's correct. There was a massive steroid scandal (you may have read about it!!!!!) that led to them getting rid of the LOD, Hulk Hogan, Bulldog and others, and they put the belt on a far more normal looking guy to try and divert some of the heat.and???They did that because they had to, not due to a change in tactics that Vince just decided on. The fucking Feds were on their case. So, yes, they focused on Hart and Michaels for a bit, then when things settled down again they re-hired Hogan, Sid, Bulldog, LOD and many others.

[Happ Hazzard]

Does anyone know exactly when the Larry King Live show is shown on our version of CNN? It's tomorrow night at 9pm in the US, is it actually live over here, or does it go out on a days delay or something? Chris Jericho, Bret Hart and John Cena are the guests tomorrow night, it is a full 1 hour show all about the Benoit tragedy.