GeronimoJacksBeard

2 hours ago, PunkStep said:

I liked the Owen/Bret finish because at the time it looked like he got lucky, which is what you wanted from a clean finish with Bret going for the big one later.

Disagree with the Bret/Bulldog finish, though. Even as a kid I wondered why Bulldog got a lucky win rather than using his big running powerslam. To protect Bret of course, who would then be catapulted into the WWF title picture straight after, but would it have mattered?

Interesting that your take on both of those is that they are lucky victories. I think that's perhaps the conditioning of the past 20+ years of finisher heavy wrestling. If your're treating a wrestling match as a sporting contest where the goal is to pin your opponents shoulders to the mat for 3 seconds, neither Owen or Bulldog were lucky, they out-countered Bret with difficult to escape pinning moves. You could say they got lucky in that it's unlike Bret, the excellence of execution, a technical master to give his opponents any kind of opening and that either match could have gone the other way on any other day, but that's the story, few would know Bret and his ways better than these two.I  felt they were both perfect finishes that had everyone looking good coming out of it. But i do love a finish like that where it's different to your standard finishing move fare.

Bret was the king of those kind of finishes (and finishes in general for me). The aforementioned Piper WM8, also loved how all 3 of his KOTR '93 victories were with pinfall counters, but different ones! Also his playing possum small package finish on Diesel. Even when it did come to his actual finisher though, he was a master there too with finding different, creative ways into the sharpshooter.

Saw the thread title and came in to mention the SummerSlam '97 main event finish. Probably my favourite ever finish for the reasons already mentioned. A finish that actually pays off the story leading into the match, the whole match leads up to and creates further story developments coming out of it.

In a similar vein - big fan of the storyline heavy finish of Austin vs Kane, First Blood at KOTR '98. Another one that seemed like they'd booked themselves into a corner with all the added stips, but turned out to be a creative finish that made total sense with where they were going leading into SummerSlam. Everyone is thinking how can Kane bleed, when he's covered head to toe in attire, yet also how can Austin win and Kane set himself on fire!? And would they put the belt on Kane over Austin? There's hints and questions simmering as to whether Undertaker is in-cahoots with Kane. For the first time it's made to look as though he could well be, with more questions on that front coming out of the finish. Mankind has run-in to help Kane - noteworthy in itself that somehow the mad bastard is back out there for this spot after what he's just been through, something not often mentioned when talking about that night. Undertaker hates Mankind and obviously isn't pleased he didn't manage to kill him earlier, so comes out to finish him off. He's been half helping Austin/on his side over the past previous months, but there's brewing tensions there and Austin doesn't ever want help from anyone. Kane beat Undertaker for the title shot and that's where the in-cahoots murmurs soon started after. Austin and Undertaker seem to have common enemies, Austin doesn't trust anybody, but can he trust Undertaker? Or is Vince fueling these in-cahoots talks to fuck with them. Mankind comes out, Undertaker follows. Mankind is centre of the ring and Austin comes in with a chair to take care of him, at the very same time Undertaker comes in the other side of him with a chair of his own. They both swing for Mankind at the same time, Mankind ducks and Undertakers chair connects with Austins which then connects with his face and busts him wide, WIDE open as Austin has a hell of a blade job. Hebner sees the blood and calls it, Kane is your new champ and Austin is pissed, knowing he didn't lose fairly and that Undertaker cost him. Presented and all played well enough to not be completely clear if it was meant to be accidental or if it was Takers intention all along. The timing of everyone involved being spot on.

Watched the Benoit one last night. Fuck, part 2 is heavy. I had entirely forgotten that he hadn't killed himself immediately after, but 2 days later. Going to bed with their dead bodies in his house where he killed them, calling Chavo, contemplating taking a flight and wrestling. Fuck.

Have to feel for David, what a tragic situation. Nancy's sister seems lovely and very level headed on everything. Her summary of what happened to Benoit, being no one thing but a combination of grief, CTE, steroid abuse is probably bang on. Just in a downward spiral that was never going to have a good ending.

Never mind Benoit for the Hall of Fame, Chris Nowinksi for the Hall of Fame!

5 hours ago, RedRooster said:

 Poor Reigns though, I'm glad he didn't take any chances with this. I hope others who perhaps didn't feel comfortable speaking up now do. 

Roman Reigns no longer a part of WrestleMania!

Apparently not comfortable being at the PC with his previous health conditions and with the current pandemic. Good on him. 

3 hours ago, WyattSheepMask said:

While I want to agree with you, I can’t help but feel like once things get relaxed (whenever that may be), the wider population will just go back to how we were before things escalated. We’ve seen plenty of people who either just don’t get the seriousness of it all or just blatantly flout what they’re being told to do

Something i've not really seen discussed a whole lot currently, but i'm fascinated that may change (and surely has to) our lives in the future is the positive affects this could have on climate change. A month or so back, when i was still working and this was all really starting to kick off - just to make some interesting conversation on the subject as Covid was all anyone was talking about and to play a bit of devils advocate i was being all tinfoil hat theory and would say something along the lines of "It's interesting how everything this seems to affect are things that are issues contributing to climate change - overpopulation, fuel emissions, big events with huge mass gatherings, etc".

Now, i don't actually think this is a man-made virus or government conspiracy to solve climate change or anything like that before anyone jumps on me. As i said, was merely creating some interesting debate/conversation. My main point being that, the big measures that the world knows it's needed to address and change to combat climate change, not nearly enough people would. People just wouldn't be willing to change their way of lives, even with the fear and knowledge of the long term affects, presumably because it just doesn't affect us enough immediately for us to take real action. Earlier in the year it was being said that we were basically to the point of no return on the matter, if DRASTIC action wasn't taken, we are basically fucked. Even with that knowledge, it wouldn't truly change how we live. A very sudden, immediate, very real fear that does affect us RIGHT NOW has caused us to drastically change our way of life immediately. If this does all continue for a number of months and the evidence continues to suggest the actions taken are having a positive impact on climate change, i'm interested to see if once COVID-19 issues have settled, whether we do just go completely back to normal and our usual way of life, or the climate change evidence is too strong to be ignored any more that periods like this could be enforced every so often in future or whether they even could. Whether the fear of the impact on global economy is too great for that to be a reality, but if we manage to live like this for an extended period now and get through it and the evidence suggests it's what we need to do to stop the rapid rate of climate change, could we live like this for short periods every so often in the future? 

Pulling back lapsed fans from a decade ago? Don’t see it myself. I‘ve personally found pro-wrestling presented in this manner exposes it for the nonsense it really is to be honest. Not enjoyable at all, not even from a morbid curiosity point of view (maybe the first time), but as has been mentioned it really serves as the bleakest of reminders and far from any kind of escapism.
 

I’d rather a shit-storm was kicked off on the socials, like has started to happen regarding the Olympics not being postponed or rather, like when they had the Moolah battle royal and that forced them to change. I understand they’ve got these big money contracts and all that, but these are completely unprecedented times and circumstances. Literally everything else is being postponed/cancelled. Surely there’ll be some leeway with that, considering. Even so, they can still produce “original” content to fill these hours without having to resort to old stuff can’t they? They must have hours of footage they’ve already filmed for the network they can sub for Raw, Smackdown, etc no? Sure there’s contract issues with that as well, but again, unique circumstances - meet in the middle to provide a much more suitable, safer solution for all involved.

Covid-19 could well be what finally gets Vince.

Brock vs Rock

Two of the biggest stars and attractions ever. And it happened just once. It was quite the passing of the torch moment. The arrival proper of Brock Fucking Lesnar, the next big thing. I see it as a point of the ending of an era and dawning of a new one. Rock was about to take hiatus to start to give Hollywood a go proper. Austin was gone. Hogan was gone. 2002 had been a right mess, a bizarre year, struggling to let the “attitude era” go even though it was long time. Struggling to find a new identity, before finally, seemingly settling on “the future” and this new breed of genetic super freaks and unbelievable athletes coming up from a class in OVW. With the most insane athlete of the lot, Brock Lesnar thrust right to the top in the prominent position. The match was awesome and topped an absolutely electric card. One of the best PPVs ever with a worthy main event to top such a card and the dawning of a new age and direction.
 

SummerSlam 2002 gets talked about, but Brocks first title win and true arrival, going over The Rock never really gets talked about. Nor Lesnars celebration, which I love.

That’s pretty much it. The Progress run was a lot of right time, right place, right company, right crowd, killer angle. They complimented each other in creating a true identity. Especially as they’d just moved into the ballroom. And running with Havoc as a dominant champion in a long, storyline driven fashion really further differentiated Progress from anyone else, in a good way.

He’s heralded as some as being really strong creatively and having great psychology, etc. I’ve witnessed this, as well as some fucking awful ideas. But on that front he certainly seems to have ran dry for a while now. As evidenced by the near recycling with that promo, referencing his character from his Progress highs and seemingly living off those past glories when he’s in a very different environment now when, yeah there’s a bunch of others doing not entirely dissimilar.

Thoroughly enjoyed both of this years Rumbles. Felt both were put together really well. I like Drew, but thinking about it since...as they seem to have actually used the match this year to properly elevate someone, I wish that person had been Big E. Mentioned many times before that I think they should strap a rocket to the fella and looking back on it feel the Rumble would have made for the perfect moment to do so. Pretty much just taking Drew’s spot. I’d give Kofi a bit of stronger hope spot on his own and/or with Rey. But have them be eliminated and E arrives and gets the redemption on Kofis behalf, gets serious, has the stare down and goes all the way. Feels like could have been an ideal opportunity to provide some sort of follow up on the Kofi story without having felt it was all for nothing and creating a logical new top guy in the process.

On 2/10/2020 at 6:45 PM, Magnum Milano said:

Mikey Whipwreck & Tajiri

This was mine. To reference another recent topic - a “storyline tool” I enjoy is an odd couple pairing coming together and unexpectedly turning out to really compliment each other, gel and work as a super fluid team. These lads together being one of my favourite examples. I haven’t seen them since, but remember loving their matches in that tag tourney and all their tag offence. WCW had a tag title tourney that put Raven and Saturn together and enjoyed them too. Always had a soft spot for Tajjers and Saturn, mind.

Also actually really liked the WWE version of FBI. There was a period where Nunzio and Stamboli were tearing it up on Velocity each week in cracking little matches with Stamboli making an awesome hot tag.

Others have been mentioned, echoing Rick really. Will always love big, tough Samoan and Tongan bastards. Always thought the Headshrinkers were underrated. Haku and Barbarian are just a boss pairing though. Big fan of the WM7 opener with The Rockers.

Rick beat me to it, but Miz Girl and Brock Lesnar guy were long before streak guy. They’ve been doing that shit for years.

I’ve barely even watched highlights of WWE lately, just keeping tabs on what’s going on. It barely felt like there was any real hype to these Rumbles, so i wasn’t particularly fussed about watching the Rumble for the first time ever. But last minute I decided to, I was suckered in and intrigued by the Brock at number 1 factor. Really glad I did. That Brock factor really went exactly as I hoped. Holy shit Brock is just the absolute bollocks. He was fucking perfect here. The mutants who get up in arms about him and his performances were proved wrong in a big way here. His reactions, to Kieth Lee in particular, were just wonderful. Brock gets it. He wouldn’t have ever watched NXT is definitely the narrative with been led to believe. Being shocked by the sheer mass of “this motherfucker”, beautiful! He’s probably the best ever, to be honest.

I love the Rumble concept. So much can be done with it, near limitless options and to reference another topic, such a great storytelling tool. So it’s so deflating when it’s lazily booked and nothing really happens or progresses. Loved both of them here though and with both much more the first half. Really strong booking in both, be interested to know who was behind the majority of that.

Honestly forgot their even was a Women’s Rumble, such was the build. When it started I had very little expectations, but sometimes that’s the best way. Right from the off was really into it. Loved the Bliss/Belair stuff. Bianca Belair. Man! Awesome strong booking for her and she absolutely owned it. Total star making performance. Great reactions from her too, class in everything she did really. And just dripping with star aura and charisma. Her and Lesnar gave me two of my favourite Rumble performances ever.

Beth Phoenix getting such a stint was quite surprising, but I thought she really shone as well. Almost mirrored Edges run in a way. Wonder if they’re both back for a bit? Despite the rumours, really didn’t think Edge would be back. But that was mostly wishful thinking. I really like the bloke and felt there’s no reason for him to come back...and I fear him fucking himself up proper and he’d seemed perfectly happy and content being away...and he’s got a family damn it! Yet, I loved his return, totally got me on the shock factor, he looked thrilled to be there and he really hasn’t missed a beat! He looked great and a total star. He’d actually fit in really well with a load of the current crop. Just hope he is healthy along with it. Orton was also a riot here, looked he was having the time of his life being back in there with Edge.

That Santina spot was dreadful. But that Mandy/Otis spot was tremendous. Feels like WWE have gone back in a time a bit with some of the scantily clad eye candy on display. Alexa, Liv and Mandy. Good lord. Probably played a part in me being so keen on the first half actually come to think of it. Like most, wasn’t a fan of the finish. Shayna could have been made here and her challenging Becky seems such an interesting, obvious feud/route that would be worthy of ‘Mania. Feels a little like it’s done the opposite. Charlotte winning here though makes it all the more frustrating and baffling that she was shoehorned in last year. Perhaps Ronda is back for ‘Mania.

Good surprises this year, besides Santina and Kelly Kelly. For years on previous Rumbles I’ve had hunches of Morrison, MVP and Carlito returning as surprises. Year I don’t think it, two of them are in it. Know Morrison was already back, but still. 
 

Rollins and his crew were used well. Looks as though their setting up Murphy & AOP vs Joe, Owens and Black which could be very tasty. 

That PAC promo was class. He’s so fucking good. Ever since the “King of the Cruiserweights” gimmick and nailing all his promo stuff he’s been the very best around for my money. He’s right, he’s a good country mile away from anyone else in AEW.

Hold up, that photo hasn’t been fucked with!? Jesus. That’s a physique that would have made Rick Rude proud.

5 hours ago, Supremo said:

People thinking Marty Scurll or Luke Harper are going to be revealed as some type of Higher Power figure behind Dark Order are probably the same people who were convinced Charlotte wasn’t going to be in the main event of Wrestlemania and that Baron Corbin wouldn’t really be facing Kurt Angle in his retirement match.

Of no real relevance to discussion, but this has reminded me of it - Marty Scurll was originally meant to be the leader of and man behind The Faceless faction in Progress several years back, a gimmick not entirely dissimilar to The Dark Order. It made absolute fuck all sense and the gimmick was getting shit on before any reveal had occurred so he wisely bailed on it and the whole thing got confusingly retconned.

Anyway, as you were.

1. Steve Blackman 

It’s party-time!

2. Black Steveman

Kieth Lee gets the call up and repackaged with an ill-judged new name and gimmick. He has the big man face-off/showdown spot with Braun Strowman. They tussle towards the rope and get double eliminated by Spud. The next night on Raw Tony Atlas is revealed as the manager of Big Black Steveman.

Has Jake ever been seen without a mo’?

I’ve thought from the start the win/loss records and rankings stuff should be simply be used leading into a PPV, then clean slated ready for the next one each time. Keep the overall records, but just reference that when you need to for a storyline tool and focus on the “mini-season” period between PPVs. AEW don’t have PPVs so ridiculously frequently that it should be an issue and is short enough to keep viewers interest and attention on the records without them being ridiculous.

Gimmick it up however, like you earn extra points for beating a top 10/top 5 whatever ranked wrestler rather than simply beating a bunch of jobbers or extra points for winning matches in sub 10/sub 5 mins or something. This gives reason and incentive for wrestlers to request matches with high ranking wrestlers if there’s no actual beef. Or for someone like MJF to dodge big matches, pick up easy wins and cheat to win matches quickly (Wardlow interference/attacking pre-match, etc). Someone like PAC to have a moan and calling bullshit that his overall record is being ignored for someone like Darby Allin suddenly being on a hot streak. Someone like Kenny Omega constantly being the nearly-man, always finishes just shy of the top spot to earn a title shot in a manner in which the audience feels he deserves the top spot. Do this for long enough, simply earning the top spot and title shot into the next PPV could be as meaningful as winning the title itself.

I guess a problem with being leading into each PPV is not having your big match set in time, but again their PPVs are generally far enough apart that you could have the cut off 2 weeks or whatever before the PPV, with the TV being clear where you’re heading. “Darby Allin and Dustin Rhodes are eligible to challenge for the title, Dustin needs to beat a top 5 overall ranked star to secure his spot. Tonight he takes on Pac!” sort of thing. The post cut-off could create further storyline opportunities.

It could be a great story-telling tool, giving reason and purpose to a load of matches, wins and losses actually mattering. They’re currently using it pretty poorly though and it means fuck nothing really.

4 hours ago, Yakashi said:

You forgot the guy that sexual assaults people but it’s funny because he’s gay fella.

🤨 Jack Sexsmith is in AEW?

On 12/17/2019 at 6:08 PM, Supremo said:

The only thing I want for Cesaro is new kecks. He looks a right twat in his current outfit.

He’s always trying weird new little things seemingly in attempt to make something interesting about himself. They’re always shit. A few years back, for a phase of all of about 2 weeks he started creeping to the ring Tajiri style for his entrance. So odd it almost seemed like a rib or as though he was trying to pop someone behind the scenes or something.

 On the subject of WrestleMania, I’d quite like that not to be 8 weeks long in 2020. As far as the card goes, no idea what it could be at this stage. With Daniel Bryan reverting back to face and old look, I’d be up for him winning the Rumble and challenging Lesnar at ‘Mania. Can’t see a great deal of options for Lesnar. This is one I always fancied happening at ‘Mania before and get the impression it’s what D-Bry wanted himself. And reckon Lesnar would fancy it at the big stage too. Bryan winning the Rumble and having that match at WrestleMania would hopefully prevent either being shat on by the live crowd too. Doubt it will happen though, as it’s probably Bryan/Fiend at the Rimble.

I’d also be up for Roman joining up with The Usos to go against Seth and AOP.

That’s a common one. Holly had an angle some point in ‘95 where he won the title from Jarrett, but the decision got reversed later in the night (or something similar), a bit like the Jericho/Triple H WWF title angle. So the visual of Holly winning and leaving with the IC title is very real.

This is long before he was Hardcore Holly though and still Racecar Bob, so whether it’s the root of your confusion I don’t know, but I reckon it’s the cause of Jim’s.

I guess Jimmy can finally afford to move out of his Mums gaff now then.

I was going to put this in the Unpopular Opinion thread, but I’m not so sure it is an unpopular opinion. Maybe not here anyway.

The Jon Moxley squash that opened this weeks Dynamite show and then the rest of the show that followed made me think how much I’ve come to enjoy squash matches and short sprints to the 15 min+ forced “epic”. Over the last 5-10 years there’s been a million of the latter and very few of them (if any really) have had much of a lasting impact on me. Whereas I almost always enjoy a mental all out sprint or dominating squash.

Matches under 10 mins are better than matches over 10 minutes. Discuss.

Bret thought it was the shits judging by him post-match!

On Excalibur commentating with a mask on, I agree with BomberPat and BomberCar that pro-wrestling should have (more of) this eclectic mix of weird and wonderful characters including the likes of ones that wear masks and that this sort of behaviour is perfectly acceptable existing purely within pro-wrestling’s barmy little world. But, they are having a right laugh comparing it to Sasuke, Lucha in general and Jerry Lawler in full King garb. The history and traditions of Japan and Mexico, a wrestling legend known as the King of Memphis is the same as some American bloke that used to wrestle on the indies, wearing a shit Lucha mask just to do play by play, that has no relevance...or relevant history to anything, for a new wrestling company that reckons it presents itself as more sports based than its big rival company (that hires people for similar roles that do similar jobs for actual sports) is it? Is it fuck.
 

It’s fair enough saying explain why it’s more weird or embarrassing than any other shit in wrestling. But explain why he’s wearing it to commentate to begin with? There’s literally no reason beyond perhaps appealing to some PWG fans. There’s no grand history, tradition, mystique or wrestling legend behind it and it adds nothing to what he does or any semblance of character performance being portrayed. If any of those things applied, as it has with Lawler, Gorilla, Ventura, Savage, etc, fair enough. As it doesn’t, he may as well be wearing a fucking replica title belt while he’s at it.

1 hour ago, Merzbow said:

I don't see why they wouldn't trust him, what's he likely to do?

Shag underage girls?