The Dragon Gate thread

[JLM]

Isn't Shiro Koshinaka the hip attack guy? That's probably who I'm thinking of, and I think he actually faced FloBro, so I got that all wrong.

 

On the plus side, I found a folder full of assorted random pictures, so here's TARUltimo Dragon:

 

[Spatular]

Yeah, you're right about it being Koshinaka. Sorry.If that's TARU dressed as Ultimo Dragon, it's the greatest thing I've ever seen. And I thought that even before I spotted the mascara-scar drawn on top of the mask. What show's it from?

[Foley4ever]

Stalker has faced both Yutaka Yoshie and Minoru Suzuki this year.

[JLM]

He was TARUtimo Dragon twice on TV, first time he beat Stalker "Thunder" Ishikawa which is way back on VamoAmi 12 (Feb 2001) and the second time was against Masahiro Stalker on the third anniversary show: (Toryumon SKY PerfecTV! PPV, 7/1/01).

 

He beat Ultimo Dragon-cito in the gimmick too but I don't think it was on TV.

 

The match on that third anniversay PPV goes nearly fifteen minutes, which is epic by Stalker standards, but then we all know TARU is a master of comedy matches too. I'll have to watch some of his matches with Kinya again at some stage.

 

EDIT: I had to check listings for the February TV match there, and noticed Big Fuji, I totally forgot about his annual name changing thing. That was funny stuff, though Don Fuji is clearly the best he's come up with.

[paultravellfan]

The Florida Brothers rule. Enough said

[Gwailofilms]

The match on that third anniversay PPV goes nearly fifteen minutes, which is epic by Stalker standards, but then we all know TARU is a master of comedy matches too.

I watched Stalker Masahiro vs TARUtimo Dragon 3rd Anny match last week. Jesus, it's dull. Funny for about the first three minutes, then they try to wrestle and it's pretty ropey. Beyond Yakuza Kick, STF and blowing up after five minutes, Stalker doesn't seem to find a whole lot to parody Chono on.That said, TARU's Ultimo parody is spot-on, down to the big toothy grin and the funny run. The TARUsaisault is beautiful.

[BurningHammer]

Big HAGE was Hisakatsu Oya (ex FMW).

[BurningHammer]

So Ultimo Dragon has now been booked by Edler in September, and CIMA supposedly coming over in November according to an interview he did a week or so back. Edler has a show in November too.You gotta keep 'em separated eh?

That said, TARU's Ultimo parody is spot-on, down to the big toothy grin and the funny run. The TARUsaisault is beautiful.

That and him gasping for a fag halfway through the match.

[edgecrusher]

Do CIMA and Dragon not like each other?

[alexander]

Do CIMA and Dragon not like each other?

I imagine after everyhting that happened with the Toryumon split, Asai isn't keen to associate with Dragon Gate wrestlers.

[JLM]

Indeed. I think everyone who felt strongly enough about it to fully side with Asai were the ones who left (TARU, SUWA etc.) and everyone else is off his Christmas list.

[edgecrusher]

I don't know anything about this. Would I not be wrong in thinking that Misawa/AJPW is a fair comparison?Or... Sasuke/Delphin? Didn't Sasuke start a promotion, nicking Delphin's talent, much to the latter's ire?I'm not up on Japanese promotion histories and politics, I'm afraid, though it is interesting. Care to fill me in on the CIMA/Dragon and Dragon Gate stuff?

[JLM]

Well, the thing is with DG and all Asaism offshoots is that the most knowledgeable English speaking source (M2J) often consciously avoids speculation and gossip that doesn't have in-ring consequences. If the head office says "personal reasons" or "disciplinary reasons", then that's what's reported, and even then it's only for things that have to be explained, like the sudden dismissal of an entire stable or the much talked about DG/Toryumon split.

 

Toryumon backstage happenings and departures always seem to have been shrouded in secrecy, the amount of guys who have just 'disappeared' from Toryumon (sometimes returning, other times not) is quite staggering. TARU-cito, Hisamaru Tajima (who has resurfaced!), Chocoflake K-Ichi (who vanished for years before showing up again) and so forth. Then there's the fact that the promotion's entire top heel stable was dismissed en masse due to some disciplinary offense, the specifics of which were never disclosed. Compare this to your average American wrestling scandal where we seem to get every grisly detail and you find that information is hard to come by.

 

The basic conclusion to this is that there are still no concrete answers as to what happened in the split. Ultimo Dragon and Takashi Okamura used to run Toryumon together. When Ultimo started wrestling again and went off to 'live the dream' with WWE, Okamura became increasingly involved with running the promotion and clearly had different ideas about what should be done with it. The consensus seems to be that Ultimo was eventually muscled out of his own promotion. I'm sure I read talk of Magnum TOKYO having some involvement in it too.

 

Initially people thought that there were trademark disputes over the Toryumon name and Ultimo decided to bail and take his properties with him. It was also speculated that his "sealing" of the Ultimo Dragon gimmick made him want to distance himself from Toryumon, presumably under the impression that his WWE career would be... erm... moderately successful. Events since the split have led people to become increasingly more convinced that the reasons were more sinister than this.

 

There are a variety of reasons to believe that the split was less than amicable. The Toryumon X group (bar Naoki) and many of the T2P members have either left Dragon Gate or never worked for them in the first place. Whilst you can argue that most of the X'ers wouldn't have been used anyway, there is a clear divide between those who work for DG and those who continue to work with Toryumon Mexico and subsequently dragondoor and the new El Dorado promotion. More telling than this is the fact that SUWA bailed very quickly after the split, and TARU left shortly after, having only stayed on to keep things ticking over after SUWA's departure. It is thought that both of them left almost entirely out of loyalty to Asai, though SUWA had expressed his ambition to work as a freelancer for a year beforehand. Milano Collection AT's departure and subsequent participation on offshoot promotions also suggests that there might have been a choice to make between siding with Okamura and co. or staying loyal to principle Asai. For many members of T2P and X, who had not long finished their training at the Ultimo Dragon gym, their loyalty to Asai would be stronger and their immediate instinct would presumably be to stick with him.

 

Additionally, Dragon Gate since the rebranding has gradually phased out as many of Ultimo's influences as possible. All the Spanish and Mexican themed names have gone, the belts have all been replaced, even the in ring style in main event matches is changing.

 

So, erm, the split wasn't pretty and appears to have been something of a coup, but I don't think i've ever seen the full details disclosed and I doubt they will be.

[BurningHammer]

The WAR reunion show in late July will be very interesting. WAR was the promotion ran in the 1990's by Genichiro Tenryu. Ultimo Dragon was the junior ace of that promotion, and you would figure he would absolutely need to be on any type of show under the WAR banner. Tenryu is employed by Dragon Gate, and has accordingly plenty of Dragon Gate wrestlers have been booked.

and so forth. Then there's the fact that the promotion's entire top heel stable was dismissed en masse due to some disciplinary offense, the specifics of which were never disclosed.

Such a disciplinary offense that two of the stable, including the one you would mostly likely associate with any disciplinary infraction, were hired by All Japan pretty much immediately. And considering All Japan's hard line with Arashi's drug bust just today, if it was anything that major (Kensuke Sasaki, being between DG and AJPW at the time, and specifically TARU, who had just left, would know if there was anything scandalous), they would not have been hired and pushed to the extent they were. I always go by what Jae has more or less said, look at how almost every departure or 'dismissal' has been from the T2P class, and they can be attributed to loyalty to Asai. I also present the rumours surrounding Milano's leaving of ROH being down to him not wanting to work for them with the ever increasing links between ROH and DG.And to end on lurid speculation, I suggest that a percentage of money and merchandise made on Toryumon Japan shows was propping the Mexico school. Okamura wanted the money to stay in Japan (or a larger portion of it to stay in Japan with some going to Mexico) and set up merchandise deals with Banpresto under the name Dragon Gate (this was in early 2004). Split occurs and this could be one of 1001 reasons behind it. Okamura starts Dragon Gate with backing in place. Looking back at the TV going back to Januray 2004 and you can see the phasing in of the change before July. The Dragon Gate merchandising. Magnum's leave of absence after dropping the UDG belt. The Toryumon Japan titles being vacated with no replacement champions announced. Hindsight is awesome!

[BurningHammer]

And again it seems...Dragon Gate departee Milano Collection AT is booked for NJPW's 23/7 WRESTLE LAND show against Hiroshi Tanahashi in a tag match.Dragon Gate star Masaaki Mochizuki is seemingly booked as Minoru Tanaka's tag partner on a NJPW 30/7 show (under the CTU banner, but you get my drift - Minoru used the triangle enzui and Twister to beat Koji Kanemoto today and annouced an "M. M" as his tag partner.