The British wrestling business

[CracktonMoj]

Take someone like Fadda; he doesn't have any ulterior motives in criticising the more US indy based style that guys like Johnny Storm and Jody Fleisch (and I'm sure countless others too) have been using. His criticism is that the modern style, as we're calling it, places too much emphasis on superficial reactions and thus misses the essence of wrestling - the storytelling and the emotion that can be generated through that.

Yeah, but he's like that about every other style of wrestling - it's not an exclusively British thing.

So people like him, and wrestlers like McDonald (I seriously doubt that his only motives in criticising some of the new breed are selfish) want to see a move back to the more methodical, deliberate style that used to define British wrestling.

That never used to define British wrestling. The thing that defines British wrestling to everybody except hardcore wrestling fans is 'Daddy and Haystacks', which goes far beyond 'methodical and deliberate'.These people who moan about British Wrestling being Americanised are the same people who, if they are workers, are happy to work on shows advertised as American Wrestling, work with ex WWF stars in the knowledge that they will attract more kids to the show (and therefore unless the promoter fucks off, more money for them), and in some cases work as or against tributes to American characters, be they wrestling or otherwise. They also tend to be the ones that if the landscape of the UK scene changed and it did become more fast paced in general rather than one or two promotions, they would quickly find themselves struggling to be booked, as they either don't have the physical ability to work that style or are just not motivated enough to work that style.The promoters who rail against the modernisation/Americanisation of the British scene are the ones who promote or book all the above. It's very hypocritical to my eyes. To on one hand say 'I hate all this Yank shit that the FWA are doing, bring back traditional British wrestling' while on the other accepting bookings to wrestle Gangrel and Spidermask on shows advertised to the general public as 'American Wrestling' is slightly too hypocritical for my taste.The sad thing is that in an American product, there's more options for these people, which I don't think they realise... Drew McDonald as a heel manager cutting effective promos, Ricky Knight cheering his son on at ringside and working the occasional built-up-with-a-story-behind-it tag bout or legends match, Klondyke Kate working the Bertha Faye angle with Robbie Brookside, and so on and so forth.

Another argument in favour of the older style is the reduced risk of injury.

Yes. All these old style workers are injury and pain free and don't walk with limps. Oh wait...If the promoters put as much energy into booking a product that people want to see as they do conning and lying and tricking people through doors, Britwres would be the best in the world. As it stands, it's a lot easier for the lazy booker to advertise someone who's not going to be there to draw a crowd for one night who then go home feeling tricked, than putting on three months' worth of good wrestling that would draw crowds who buzz and are positive about what they've just seen on the way out. Edited October 3, 2003 by NewportMoj

[bobbins]

Yes. All these old style workers are injury and pain free and don't walk with limps. Oh wait...

I'm not sure how many of them retired at 23 though.

[Guest Chris32]

Yeah, but he's like that about every other style of wrestling - it's not an exclusively British thing.

I just used Fadda as an example. The point is that there are fans who would rather not see the Americanisation of British wrestling, particularly as relates to matches taken straight out of the US indy scene in terms of stunt-shows and WWE in terms of storyline and character philosophies.

That never used to define British wrestling.  The thing that defines British wrestling to everybody except hardcore wrestling fans is 'Daddy and Haystacks', which goes far beyond 'methodical and deliberate'.

That's true, but that kind of style could be progressed in the right direction. An example of this is a wrestler like Doug Williams who incorporates aspects of all sorts of styles into his work, but who is eminently British nonetheless. That is the kind of modernisation that stays true to its roots but also moves with the times (more New Labour nonsense - it's unintentional, honest).

These people who moan about British Wrestling being Americanised are the same people who, if they are workers, are happy to work on shows advertised as American Wrestling, work with ex WWF stars in the knowledge that they will attract more kids to the show (and therefore unless the promoter fucks off, more money for them), and in some cases work as or against tributes to American characters, be they wrestling or otherwise.

That's a fair point. This is an example of the clash between what the fans of wrestling (who are really fans of American wrestling, but just happen to live in Britain) in Britain expect out of wrestling, and the disparity between that expectation and what British wrestling has been equipped to provide. The promoters can't provide American wrestling since they are largely working with British wrestlers who have eminated from a different tradition, but they can advertise it and they do - it's the only way they're going to make a profit. This hypocrisy doesn't negate the validity of their animosity towards American wrestling entirely. It's a matter of necessity.

They also tend to be the ones that if the landscape of the UK scene changed and it did become more fast paced in general rather than one or two promotions, they would quickly find themselves struggling to be booked, as they either don't have the physical ability to work that style or are just not motivated enough to work that style.

I agree that a lot of the criticism will be fuelled by self-interest. Still, there is something to be said for saving the unique British style and incoperating its values into a new generation of wrestlers, as opposed to completely forgetting the legacy and copying forms of American wrestling that have became popular.

Yes.  All these old style workers are injury and pain free and don't walk with limps.  Oh wait...

I never claimed that working a slower style prevented injury. Nor did I claim that working for 40 years won't have a terrible effect on a wrestlers body. The point I'm making is that the more methodical style involving little high-flying is more conducive to longer careers and less serious injuries. I don't see how that point can be argued.

If the promoters put as much energy into booking a product that people want to see as they do conning and lying and tricking people through doors, Britwres would be the best in the world.  As it stands, it's a lot easier for the lazy booker to advertise someone who's not going to be there to draw a crowd for one night who then go home feeling tricked, than putting on three months' worth of good wrestling that would draw crowds who buzz and are positive about what they've just seen on the way out.

Promoters should concentrate on their product, that is clear. But they must decide what kind of product they want to deliver, and delivering a US indy or WWE based product might not be the way to go. There are other options for a promoter if he wants to modernise.

[Terje Rindal]

There are some great points brought up here.Alex Shane makes a great point when talking about several fans stepping over the line. Obviously you are in full right to be pissed when people call you at home three o'clock at night to tell you you suck; I don't think anyone will deny that. But still, the point I was originally trying to make is that many wrestlers will be quick to tell you you haven't got a clue if you criticise them, even if you do so in a nice respectable manner. Obvioulsy, as someone mentioned, nobody likes to be criticised, but especially for younger workers, it's the only way to learn. It seems that the wrestlers posting in this thread agree's with that anyway, which Ithink is cool.

I read fans criticising the 'modernisation' (nice New Labour word there) of wrestling in Britain too. Take someone like Fadda; he doesn't have any ulterior motives in criticising the more US indy based style that guys like Johnny Storm and Jody Fleisch (and I'm sure countless others too) have been using. His criticism is that the modern style, as we're calling it, places too much emphasis on superficial reactions and thus misses the essence of wrestling - the storytelling and the emotion that can be generated through that.

That is true, but like MOJ says; it's not limited to just British wrestling. The longer you watch wrestling, the more you develop your own opinion on what it 'should' be. I agree with Fadda more than probably anyone else I read opinions of on the net, and have a very similar view to his. I can watch any style of wrestling and appreciate it, but it's much easier for me to get into a match which has 'meaning', rather than your average US indy match.

[alex shane's selling ability]

By your standards ASSellingA, the WWE show would have been better than the FWA show as there were better workers on the card, despite them not actually putting on good performances. To me, that's idiotic, but it does enable me to see how you rate All Star shows over everything else - because a typical All Star show could have Jonny Storm, Doug Williams, James Mason, Robbie Brookside, Robbie Dynamite, American Dragon, PN News, Julio Torres and Skull Murphy as the wrestlers, which is altogether a strong lineup on paper. The fact that only one or two of them will perform to their best ability on the night is irrelevant, because they have the potential and the ability ( in some cases long gone, but meh) to be brilliant. Or have I got the wrong end of the stick here?

I'd argue with your points about workers performing to the best of their ability. By your standards this means that wrestlers work harder in the FWA ring than they would in All Star, WAW or whoever elses. This is blatently untrue Doug, Jonny, Robbie, etc perform at more or less the same level whoever they wrestle for. merican Dragon's match against Doug in FWA whilst being good was not of the same standard as the one in Croydon a month or so before for example, you pays your money and takes your choice.As far as the WWE goes I saw the Smackdown show at London Arena earlier in the year and would argue that Benoit, Mysterio, Noble, Spanky or whoever in third gear are arguably better than the likes of the majority of the FWA or any other British promoters roster at the top of their game.

Also the people in Safeways are doing their job for money. Most people in the wrestling business in England are doing it for a love of the game or just to entertain the crowd. With this being the case I think that it's alot harder for a wrestler to except such harsh views than someone who is being paid a full time wage for making their customer's happy.

Whilst it would easy to quote you out of context and suggest you think money's the important issue for a wrestler, i'm not going to. However I would suggest that a fan paying

[Guest Chris32]

That is true, but like MOJ says; it's not limited to just British wrestling. The longer you watch wrestling, the more you develop your own opinion on what it 'should' be. I agree with Fadda more than probably anyone else I read opinions of on the net, and have a very similar view to his. I can watch any style of wrestling and appreciate it, but it's much easier for me to get into a match which has 'meaning', rather than your average US indy match.

But in the case of British wrestling you have the situation where the fans want American wrestling and the promoters are starting to give them something resembling the style they want. But the problem is whether that style is worth-while, even if it popular. MOJ made suggestion that those opposing Americanisation are bitter and self-serving; I'm simply suggesting that there are objective reasons for opposing the change of direction. Fadda was just an example of someone who opposes the change for valid reasons. I'm not completely rejecting Americanisation, I'm just pointing out that there are major negatives as well as major positives in moving in that direction and that the negatives are more than just the redundancy of Drew McDonald.

[Guest Alex Shanes smelling ability]

The fact is that at FOH certain UK guys got paid almost 5 times what they get payed elsewhere for working for us that night. We did this and continue to because we can afford it just ask any of our guys. Sadly five times what they normally get payed is still fuck all compared to what they deserve. You do try your best to twist my words but sadly my point is the same. Wrestling fans do have a right to be critical just that wrestlers don't have to like it. They don't get paid to be judged on forums but to entertain people on the night. Infact I'd betr that when most of the current UK/FWA wrestlers got into the business fan forums were not even in exsistence.As for the

[Terje Rindal]

But in the case of British wrestling you have the situation where the fans want American wrestling and the promoters are starting to give them something resembling the style they want.

Obviously you have to give your fans what they want, or they'll lose interest in your product. I doubt an Americanisation is the best solution for any company, as it will always be seen as a copy. If you're copying the WWF, you (probably) can never compete financially, and thus will be seen as second rate. Looking at the final years of FMW tells you this, and even AJPW is going down that path now.

[Guest alanhill]

As for the

Edited October 3, 2003 by alanhill

[Guest Chris32]

But in the case of British wrestling you have the situation where the fans want American wrestling and the promoters are starting to give them something resembling the style they want.

Obviously you have to give your fans what they want, or they'll lose interest in your product. I doubt an Americanisation is the best solution for any company, as it will always be seen as a copy. If you're copying the WWF, you (probably) can never compete financially, and thus will be seen as second rate. Looking at the final years of FMW tells you this, and even AJPW is going down that path now.

I'm thinking about the US indies too, in terms of the way the wrestlers choose to execute matches. The dangerous and lazy high-flying style that has became popular in the US and has consequently found its way into the British market via the process I tried to explain in my initial post. I don't think it's true that you necessarily have to give the fans exactly what they want. The downside of replicating the high-flying style might be too great. Such an approach to wrestling might never work on a long-term basis - too many injuries, too little true emotion and a situation where the stunts become more and more dangerous. A product that has elements of the US alternative in it (for example, fairly flashy productions, the odd run-in) but that revolves round a distinctly British style with strong elements of American and Japanese wrestling to give a sense of familiarity and excitement - could work. Something like this isn't what the fans demand, but if it was presented well then the fans could learn to like it. It's a case of building something serious for the long-term rather than exploiting the new fashion in search of an audience or two before it becomes outdated or boring. It's about evolving, not mutating.

[alex shane's selling ability]

The fact is that at FOH certain UK guys got paid almost 5 times what they get payed elsewhere for working for us that night. We did this and continue to because we can afford it just ask any of our guys. Sadly five times what they normally get payed is still fuck all compared to what they deserve

I've never suggested that they didn't and I agree with you that a lot of UK-based guys don't get paid what they deserve

Wrestling fans do have a right to be critical just that wrestlers don't have to like it. They don't get paid to be judged on forums but to entertain people on the night. Infact I'd bet that when most of the current UK/FWA wrestlers got into the business fan forums were not even in exsistence.

True, forums have given a public voice to people whose criticism would previously have been isolated to the venue bar at the interval or the bus home. Equally it has helped put companies such as the FWA in a position to put on big shows like Uprising and also give them feedback which influences booking decisions and storylines. I appreciate that if someone is critical of me in my job for whatever reason, or Moj's for not smiling when he hands them a Big Issue then its not going to be heard/read by hundreds of people but its part and parcel of every sphere of the entertainment business if thats where you choose to go.

I did this for ten years (five of which for free) until it became financially worth while but at some point money does become a big issue and if you disagree then you are no where near as smart as you seem to think you are on this issue. You have your right to your opinion it doesn't mean I have to like it!

Obviously money is an issue, otherwise how who it be that half the US Indie workers spend week days doing work other than wrestling. I'd be the first to say that the top workers in the UK deserve to be paid a lot more than i'd imagine they earn. However, as i'm sure you're aware wrestling has never been a quick or easy way to make money in the UK for most of the people who work in the industry. Yes, i'd agree that FWA are trying to do at least a little to try and change that, but it will need a whole lot more change in the business worldwide for wrestlers outside of the WWE to make anything near what they're worth.

[Terje Rindal]

I'm thinking about the US indies too, in terms of the way the wrestlers choose to execute matches. The dangerous and lazy high-flying style that has became popular in the US and has consequently found its way into the British market via the process I tried to explain in my initial post. I don't think it's true that you necessarily have to give the fans exactly what they want. The downside of replicating the high-flying style might be too great. Such an approach to wrestling might never work on a long-term basis - too many injuries, too little true emotion and a situation where the stunts become more and more dangerous. A product that has elements of the US alternative in it (for example, fairly flashy productions, the odd run-in) but that revolves round a distinctly British style with strong elements of American and Japanese wrestling to give a sense of familiarity and excitement - could work. Something like this isn't what the fans demand, but if it was presented well then the fans could learn to like it. It's a case of building something serious for the long-term rather than exploiting the new fashion in search of an audience or two before it becomes outdated or boring. It's about evolving, not mutating.

That's some great points there. I'd agree with the style thing. I've said many times that I'm not a fan of ROH, and I don't think their style (and therefore the promotion) could ever make it big. The problem with targeting the smart mark community as your audience is that it's simply not big enough to grow to any significant level. They might get praise on the internet and in the Observer for putting on great shows, but I personally can't see the mainstream ever caring enough. Of course, I can be wrong, but that's my take on it. The mainstream watch wrestling for the characters and storylines, in addition to the in-ring action, as has been proven in the past. I've said before that the biggest downside of all this is that it's very repedative. I've been watching some TNA X-Division stuff lately, and to me, it basically looks all the same. Exciting as it may be at first, eventually people will tire, and as has been said so many times before, there IS a limit on how far the human body will allow to take the high flying moves. What will happen when people get tired of them ? If the wrestlers don't know any other way to put on a match, the fans will go away. I don't get to see enough British wrestling to know if it's starting to effect them, but it's a trap better avoided.

[SpursRiot2012]

I have a question...It is OK for me to look at the results of a show and think, "That looks shit" and then not buy it?

[MoChatra]

That is true, but like MOJ says; it's not limited to just British wrestling. The longer you watch wrestling, the more you develop your own opinion on what it 'should' be. I agree with Fadda more than probably anyone else I read opinions of on the net, and have a very similar view to his. I can watch any style of wrestling and appreciate it, but it's much easier for me to get into a match which has 'meaning', rather than your average US indy match.

But in the case of British wrestling you have the situation where the fans want American wrestling and the promoters are starting to give them something resembling the style they want.

I don't agree with this 'starting to' point. British promoters started to go in an Americanised direction after WWF hit our screens in 1987. If anything, British promotions are taking greater steps to bring back that distinctive British style, albeit with a modernist slant.

[Foley4ever]

As for the