The British wrestling business

[Terje Rindal]

This was inspired by reading Alex Shane's signature a while back;

How many British wrestling fans does it take to change a light bulb? 1 to change the light bulb2 to argue if it was a work or not1 to say it had no psychology or build1 to say the light bulb sucks2 to argue if advertising a dead light bulb is bad for the businessand atleast 10 to say that the house the light bulb is in in isn't as good as the house next door which use exactly the same light bulbsAnd people wonder why British wrestling is still in the dark!

It's no secret that a lot of people in the business are pissed off at the so-called smart mark community for their negative views on wrestling, but isn't it a tad naive to blame the poor state of the business on the group that they're actually targeting ?! Personally I find it kinda laughable that people will blame the internet on their bad business (as has been done on this place, and 1stopwrestling, from day one). This isn't just related to the UK, as just last week, a Norwegian wrestler called a person an 'introvert' for writing a negative review about one of his matches. The Finnish promoter telling Jussican to edit his posts on here certainly fits that bill too.Critics exists in all forms of life, yet the only ones to believe it actually hurts them to any kind of great lenght seems to be the people in the wrestling business. I've yet to hear a restaurant owner blame his bad business on a bad internet review. Ditto for movies. Or TV shows. Or a clothing company. Yet it happens all the time in wrestling. Why ? You hardly see musicians tell their fans to go fuck themselves for being negative, and that they couldn't write a song if their life depended on it, do you ? Yet, if you criticise a wrestling match, the wrestler in question will be very quick to point out how you've never been in the ring, and thus your opinion doesn't matter. Again, why is that ? I'd love to hear some input here, both from fans, wrestlers, or others in the business.

[Guest Elisar Cabrera]

I think you're misguided. We love smarts - we just dont like smartasses. There's a difference (the overly critical smartasses generally don't go to the shows anyway they just criticise from afar).My own personal belief is that there's far too much emphasis on differentiating between internet and non-internet fans. Fans are just that fans - so what if some fans communicate on the net - its no difference from fans discussing their favourite sport between themselves in a pub.The internet is another form of communication and advertising - a lot of people these days use it to book flights, see whats on in the cinema etc etc - so to say wrestling fans who use the internet are different to any other fan is increasingly becoming more ridiculous a theory (maybe a few years ago it could be true but these days internet access is so widespread that its just a normal thing).If the FWA were afraid of its critics why would we have such an public forum on the UKFF?

Edited October 2, 2003 by Elisar Cabrera

[MoChatra]

Just out of interest, Terje, have you ever attended a British wrestling show?

[MackemMan]

Just out of interest, Terje, have you ever attended a British wrestling show?

Is that a new qualifier then? Thou shalt not criticise British wrestling unless thou hast attended a British wrestling show?

[MoChatra]

Just out of interest, Terje, have you ever attended a British wrestling show?

Is that a new qualifier then? Thou shalt not criticise British wrestling unless thou hast attended a British wrestling show?

I'm not really saying that. IIRC, Terje has been quite critical of British wrestling in the past (I'm not saying that I disagree with all of his opinions), and I just wondered what he based those criticisms on.In saying that, thouugh, criticising the FWA when you (not you in particular, MM) haven't attended one of their shows is a bit lame, in my view.

[Terje Rindal]

I think you're misguided.  We love smarts - we just dont like smartasses. There's a difference (the overly critical smartasses generally don't go to the shows anyway they just criticise from afar).

Of course there is a difference. But at the same time, I don't think you can deny the fact that there is a lot of people involved in British wrestling who will criticise the smark marks whenever they write something negative. With smarks probably being 0.0000000001% of Britains total population, and smart asses being only a small percentage of that, it's pretty far out there when people will blame them for the state of the business.

My own personal belief is that there's far too much emphasis on differentiating between internet and non-internet fans.  Fans are just that fans - so what if some fans communicate on the net - its no difference from fans discussing their favourite sport between themselves in a pub.The internet is another form of communication and advertising - a lot of people these days use it to book flights, see whats on in the cinema etc etc - so to say wrestling fans who use the internet are different to any other fan is increasingly becoming more ridiculous a theory (maybe a few years ago it could be true but these days internet access is so widespread that its just a normal thing).

I agree with that to some extent, but at the same time there's a big difference in what websites people will visit. Pretty much 'everyone' is online these days, but only a small percentage will go to a wrestling website for gossip/news/reviews. I like football, but I don't think I've ever been to an online site, even for my favourite teams. I'm a big Simpsons nerd, but I haven't even seen their official site. So yeah, there's a lot of wrestling fans who go online, I don't think too many of them actually go there to discuss/read wrestling stuff. Not to any great lenght anyway.

If the FWA were afraid of its critics why would we have such an public forum on the UKFF?

Obviously not. I haven't mentioned any names in this thread, and the quoting of Alex Shane's sig was just because it made me think about this whole issue, which has been around since day one. From what I've read of you personally, I think you sound like a very bright guy, and I even wrote a big review on the first 12 episodes of the FWA TV show a year or two back. For all the negative points I made in that post, you responded to them in a respectable manner, agreeing with some, disagreeing with others, saying you were working on a way to improve yourself. So if you take my post as an attack on you, that wasn't my intention at all. But my original point remains, that whenever a wrestler is criticised, people are usually very quick to tell that fan that "you've never been in the ring", and how all the negativity is what's ruining British wrestling. And Mo -- no, I've never been to a British show. Although outside of your own personal interest, I fail to see how this is relevant to this thread.

[Guest vanhalen]

First of all, I'm a bit nervous about posting into a thread with so many heavyweights lol, but I think people just piss and moan about everything in life, not just wrestling, as someone mentioned before, its really no different then saying, "Pires had a shit game last Saturday", the difference being, is that unlike Pires being discussed in the pub, the views would be up on here for Pires to read, and maybe he would respond with saying that they'd never played football at the highest level so they didn't really have a right to criticise. I think more people than not love the product, and will make sacrifices to either watch, or partake in it. For instance, Im coming all the way down from Carlisle to watch an FWA show, thats how strongly I feel about the product, but conversly someone who might have it on their doorstep, living in London for example, may become a bit blase about the situation, and get used to it, almost expecting to be blown away every time.

[Midnight Zeus]

In saying that, thouugh, criticising the FWA when you (not you in particular, MM) haven't attended one of their shows is a bit lame, in my view.

On that basis we should disregard 99% of people's views on Japanese or Mexican wrestling when they are less than favourable opinions. Why is an opinion of the UK scene based on video footage any different to the usually uncontested opinions of other counties' wrestling scenes also based on video footage?

[Terje Rindal]

......as someone mentioned before, its really no different then saying, "Pires had a shit game last Saturday", the difference being, is that unlike Pires being discussed in the pub, the views would be up on here for Pires to read, and maybe he would respond with saying that they'd never played football at the highest level so they didn't really have a right to criticise.

Yeah, but of course there are forums out there for football fans where people sometimes say that Pires had a terrible game. This is out there for Pires to read, but either A - he doesn't read it, or B - he reads it, but doesn't feel the need to tell people to fuck off. The fact remains that a lot of wrestlers WILL respond to it, when pretty much the entire entertianment world chooses not to.

[MoChatra]

The point I'm making is that you, Terje, have called this thread 'the British wrestling business', yet you've talked about problems with two Scandinavian promotions, and similarly, I don't see what relevance that has to British wrestling. And furthermore, your original post is a knock on British promotions, and I know you've been vocal in criticising British wrestling in the past, and I was just trying to find out how you've formed your opinions on British wrestling.

[Terje Rindal]

On that basis we should disregard 99% of people's views on Japanese or Mexican wrestling when they are less than favourable opinions. Why is an opinion of the UK scene based on video footage any different to the usually uncontested opinions of other counties' wrestling scenes also based on video footage?

Exactly. Well said.

[Majik]

My own personal belief is that there's far too much emphasis on differentiating between internet and non-internet fans. Fans are just that fans - so what if some fans communicate on the net - its no difference from fans discussing their favourite sport between themselves in a pub.

*Applauds* Well said sir. Have been preaching that for some time now.Some fans aren't fans in my opinion - too busy picking holes and justifying their own intelligence with negativity. But 99.9 percent of fans are the absolute business - constructively critical and appreciative.If a fan doesn't like what they see, then they have every right to voice their opinion - its when this opinion is stated as fact that the line is crossed for me.Majik

[MoChatra]

......as someone mentioned before, its really no different then saying, "Pires had a shit game last Saturday", the difference being, is that unlike Pires being discussed in the pub, the views would be up on here for Pires to read, and maybe he would respond with saying that they'd never played football at the highest level so they didn't really have a right to criticise.

Yeah, but of course there are forums out there for football fans where people sometimes say that Pires had a terrible game. This is out there for Pires to read, but either A - he doesn't read it, or B - he reads it, but doesn't feel the need to tell people to fuck off. The fact remains that a lot of wrestlers WILL respond to it, when pretty much the entire entertianment world chooses not to.

I think you have to look at this in relative terms. You won't find movie stars or millionaire footballers responding to criticism on football message boards or footie magazine letters pages because a) they're established performers and b) it would be seen as petty for them to respond to criticism.The internet is a far bigger factor in the wrestling business than it is in other forms of entertainment. In that respect, reputations can be made or broken by opinion on the internet. For example, it only takes one or two influential internet writers to come out with 'Wrestler A doesn't know how to work, blah, blah, blah', then loads of smartasses follow like little sheep and come out with the same criticisms (whether those criticisms are right or wrong is irrelevant). This could then sway promoters from booking those names, so in that regard, criticism can have a real impact on pro wrestlers' (many of whom are really, when it comes down to it, fans who wrestle at weekends) careers. Edited October 2, 2003 by MoChatra

[MoChatra]

In saying that, thouugh, criticising the FWA when you (not you in particular, MM) haven't attended one of their shows is a bit lame, in my view.

On that basis we should disregard 99% of people's views on Japanese or Mexican wrestling when they are less than favourable opinions. Why is an opinion of the UK scene based on video footage any different to the usually uncontested opinions of other counties' wrestling scenes also based on video footage?

Sorry, I should've phrased that better. I should've included people who've watched them on tape, too.

[Terje Rindal]

The point I'm making is that you, Terje, have called this thread 'the British wrestling business',

Yes, because this is a Bristish board, read by British wrestlers, British promoters, and fans of British wrestling.

yet you've talked about problems with two Scandinavian promotions,

I gave releated examples, which releates to the British wrestling business, as well as Scandinavian.

and similarly, I don't see what relevance that has to British wrestling.

Small time companies going online to blast smart marks/negative reviews, in a not always respectable manner. Saying I can't use them as an example is like saying you can't compare Kawada/Muto to Misawa/Kobashi like you did last week, as they're two different things.

And furthermore, your original post is a knock on British promotions, and I know you've been vocal in criticising British wrestling in the past

Yes it is a knock, but in contrast to many others I'm never negative for the sake of being negative. If I knock a promotion, I always makes valid points, whether you personally agree with them or not. The fact that Elisar told me that he agreed with some of the negatvie (as well as positive) things I said about FWA when I wrote those reviews tells you that I do form an objective opinion when criticising somebody, as opposed to many others on here. If I was negative for the sake of being negative, I wouldn't be a wrestling fan.

and I was just trying to find out how you've formed your opinions on British wrestling.

The same way you form your opinions on Japanese wrestling. To my knowledge, you've never even been to Japan, let alone a Japanese wrestling show. That doesn't mean you shouldn't be allowed to criticise them. Edited October 2, 2003 by Terje Rindal