HBK: 'From the Vault'

[BionicRedneck]

I've just dug out the Armeggedon match between Shawn and HHH and sure enough, it fucking reeked. I don't care who was injured and who wasn't that was rank. It was like watching two backyarders at times. Ugh....

[The Wagon Man]

I've just dug out the Armeggedon match between Shawn and HHH and sure enough, it fucking reeked. I don't care who was injured and who wasn't that was rank. It was like watching two backyarders at times. Ugh....

You mean to say that you didn't enjoy the Michaels/HHH match?! Why, Bionic, you do surprise me.Whilst it has been a relatively peaceful discussion, your blind arrogance does make it hard to argue against...

[BrianR]

Just going back to the crowd reaction to Michaels at Survivor Series 96, I dont think that this is an appropriate example to back up the point that people found it hard to get into him as a face. I can think of many occasions when the New York crowd have cheered the heel, Rock vs HHH at SummerSlam 98 for one, and Sid was not a fully fledged heel anyway, thus still had a great deal of fan support regardless.Good discussion.

[Terje Rindal]

As a worker he was inferior to Flair but in terms of personality and charisma it's a close run race, but for me HBK edges it on the basis that both his heel and face characters were fantastic over the years.

I thought Flair was a much better babyface than Shawn was. Looking back at some of Shawn's 1996 work now makes you wonder why they didn't start booing earlier than they did. Sure, his performance as a babyface was great, with the crowd interacting and the selling, but part of being a good babyface is to know your audience and give them what they want, and for a large part, Shawn didn't do that. Not to the extent Austin, Hogan and Flair did. For many fans (as evident in the ratings/buy rates), his character was a complete turn off. The wrestler wasn't but that came in second. It's quite simple; the average man will not stand up and cheer for a ladies man, no matter how talented he is. That's why you don't see many guys at Justin Timberlake concerts. that's why we don't go crazy if Leonardo Di Caprio is doing a new movie. He may be a fantastic actor and all, but it's male nature to be jealous of him; just look at David Beckham. Here's one of Englands best footballers, yet the internet has always been full of guys putting him down. Same with Jeff Hardy. Popular with the ladies = unpopular with the guys. At Survivor Series 96, that became all too evident. After Shawn's fully fledged heel turn in August 97, I thought he was an awesome performer. The interviews, the ring entrances; just the way he conducted himself. He had some classic bouts, including three with Undertaker on PPV, with Bulldog on One Night Only (and this was nothing like your typical Shawn bout -- Shawn was the cocky SOB here, and played to the crowd to perfection) and against Bret Hart in Montreal (take away the double cross thing, and it's an awesome match).During this time, I'm leening forward to saying Shawn was a better heel than Flair ever was, although that's very debatable. Flair was cocky as hell, but Shawn was just an over-the-top asshole.

Michaels had that 'rare quality' where Bret hadn't. Yes, he could connect with the fans and he was over with the masses but where was the 'rare personal quality' which HBK, Flair and Austin had in abundance?!

Bret had the same 'rare personal quality' as Shawn did, it was just on another level. As has been said before, wrestling is like a three-ring-circus; you need you different settings/characters to make it work. Shawn came off as the over-the-top larger than life CHARACTER -- Bret was the larger than life HUMAN. That's why I (and probably Redneck) says Bret had as much charisma as Shawn, and that it wasn't as obvious as Shawns. It's like the old Benoit argument; some people will say he has no personality, others will say he's one of the strongest personalities out there.

Even Flair can't boast of a record without such belmish, as his 1985 match with Kerry Von Erich was painful (through no fault of Flair's though) and thought of to be among his worst ever.

Not sure I have seen that Kerry match. I have around 4-5 Flair-Kerry matches, and all of them are at least very good. Which one is it that you're talking about ? I'm not going to argue that Shawn maybe never had a horrible match (on top of my head, I can't think of any), but if you reverse the situation, I think you'll find that Flair had way more classic/great matches than Shawn did. In my view Bret did too, but that's a closer call.

As the more mat based worker of the two who had done more hour long matches at that stage in his career, surely it was Bret who should have been generalling the contest and making sure that it flowed and was entertaining from start to finish.

My guess here is that Shawn didn't want to put the entire thing in Bret's hands. Not really a critisism when it comes to Shawn, but if you compare him to another of the best workers from the same era, Chris Benoit, you'll see a difference. When Benoit was in the position to be given the spot of top babyface, he put it all in the hands of his opponents; most notably Steve Austin, but also HHH. Shawn could have easily done this in the Iron Man bout, since Bret had the experience that Shawn didn't. Bret was in many 60 minute matches with both Ric Flair and Owen Hart, and they are all considered great. Shawn's ego (as opposed to Benoit's) prevented him from that, and hence the match suffered. Shawn wanted to go out there and prove that he was on the level when it came to a long mat based match, which he clearly wasn't. Note that I said 'my guess', as there is no proof of this.

HBK had a good main-event with Shamrock at the D-Genertation X PPV in December of 1997. As a wrestling match it was better than Vader-Shamrock but as a main-event it didn't cut the mustard due to Shamrock's inexperience at that level.

I found the Vader match better, but they're both around the same level. What made the Vader bout better in my view is that Shamrock had just signed and hadn't done any pro wrestling in years, unless you count Pancrase which in reality is a totally different thing than WWF. The Shawn match came half a year later, and while still inexperienced, at least he had SOME.

That's not what is being debated here. I will be the first to admit that his behaviour was certainly not that of the model champion, but how different was he to Hogan, Bruiser Brody and other grapplers from years gone by who got consumed by ego. The thread is focusing on Michaels as a performer and has nothing to do with his 'out of ring' antics. He may or may not have been pencilled to drop the strap to Vader, but regardless of that, the match itself was entertaining and that is something which cannot be questioned.

Agreed. We're not talking about Shawn's backstage antics, and as FANS, I don't think they should get in the way of our judgement of HBK the performer. Have to say though, that his unprofessionalism shone through in his PPV matches with Vader and Sid in 1996, which in my view drags my opinion of him down slightly. In wrestling you have to be prepared for an opponent being out of possition, and the way Shawn handeled himself in the Vader match was a disgrace.

It's a credit to him that he was able to carry the likes of Kama, Sid and others to something worth watching; a task too impossible for so many other great workers at the time.

To play devil's advocate here; what great workers do you feel couldn't have good matches with Kama or Sid ? From my memory, their matches were for the most part horrible, but that was due to them being in the ring with Undertaker, Mabel, Nash etc. When in there with the likes of Owen and Bret, the matches were always at least watchable, if not very good.

Flair was a better worker than Michaels but he had equally as entertaining matches with a lot less talented workers.

I wouldn't say that HBK had great matches with less talented people than some of the guys Flair carried. Certainly Michaels was never in the ring with anyone as bad as Mike or Chris Von Erich. I'm not even sure Michaels could have had a great match with them, although obviously that's all speculation. I do have a feeling though, that Bret could have, as Flair got the great matches out of them by using his mind, which was a strong point of Bret's, but not Shawn's. Re: Three Stages of Hell:

I wouldn't say the match is awful and considering that HHH was working injured, it was a decent effort made bearable by a solid HBK performance.

I won't say that Shawn didn't do a decent job with an injured wrestler, but Terry Funk wrestled two ****+ matches on consecutive nights in 1989 with Flair and Sting, three weeks after suffering a broken back. Steve Austin carried a one-armed Chris Benoit to the finest WWF/E match so far this century. Kawada carried a clueless Gary Albright to a MOTY. Bret carried British Bulldog when he went blank at Wembley. Again, not taking anything away from Shawn, but carrying an injured wrestler to a watchable match hardly makes him any kind of unique.

[Terje Rindal]

You mean to say that you didn't enjoy the Michaels/HHH match?! Why, Bionic, you do surprise me.Whilst it has been a relatively peaceful discussion, your blind arrogance does make it hard to argue against...

Why ? The match got plenty of bad reviews at the time. Why is it bling arrogance if he didnt like the match ? C'mon, let's not drag the best thread we've had in ages down the drain with comments like that.

[BrianR]

As far as the whole popular with the ladies thing goes, I am not sure if that really holds true. As a heel, Michael rammed it down the fans throats to get heat, but as a face Michaels act was portrayed as being sure of himself and "the embodiment of todays youth in America" (I am sure the announcers used this phrase) As a face, sure Michaels did his act , kissed a girl at ringside etc etc but I have to say his face act never annoyed me as a fan, and you knew you were going to say some great action, and on top of that was put over sky high by Vince at the announce table. Interesting point- Was it a coincidence that Michaels' babyface appeal weaned as Bret Hart made his comeback, rather than the jealousy theory?I certainly agree that his backstage antics should never be considered while assessing Michaels as a performer.

[Pegasus Kid]

Have to say though, that his unprofessionalism shone through in his PPV matches with Vader and Sid in 1996, which in my view drags my opinion of him down slightly. In wrestling you have to be prepared for an opponent being out of possition, and the way Shawn handeled himself in the Vader match was a disgrace.

What was so unprofessional about the way he conducted himself during those matches? I haven't seen either of them so I'd appreciate it if you could fill in the details. Great topic guys, I've learnt a lot from reading this. I haven't seen a great amount of HBK or Bret Hart matches, so I'm not really in a position to add to the debate. Reading this topics has made me want to see a lot more matches from the two though. I'll probably start with the 'From the Vault' DVD. Edited September 19, 2003 by Pegasus Kid

[Terje Rindal]

As far as the whole popular with the ladies thing goes, I am not sure if that really holds true. As a heel, Michael rammed it down the fans throats to get heat, but as a face Michaels act was portrayed as being sure of himself and "the embodiment of todays youth in America" (I am sure the announcers used this phrase) As a face, sure Michaels did his act , kissed a girl at ringside etc etc

I'm not really sure I understand what you mean here. Are you saying Shawn wasn't portrayed as a ladies man, or that he was, but it never hurt him ? If it is one of them, I have to say I strongly disagree though.

but I have to say his face act never annoyed me as a fan, and you knew you were going to say some great action

Yeah, but you're a wrestling fan. You can appreciate the athletisism of Shawn Michaels more than a non-fan could. A non fan could be hooked on wrestling by seeing bad-ass Steve Austin stick it to his boss, or The Rock talking smack cooler than anyone in the world, but you certainly wouldn't be drawn in to see an athletic version of the Backstreet Boys. Comparing ratings may be misleading due to the changes of the industry during the mid-90's, but the fact is that it was the nWo that made wrestling a cool thing again, and this was down to their cool Stone Cold like image, as they definitely didn't have the great matches Shawn had.

[Terje Rindal]

What was so unprofessional about the way he conducted himself during those matches? I haven't seen either of them so I'd appreciate it if you could fill in the details.

Well, in the Vader match, Vader was out of position when Shawn was gonna do the elbow off the top. Shawn instead chose to stomp him 3-4 times as hard as he could right on the face, along with saying every dirty word in the book to him, audible (sp?) on camera.In the Sid match, the crowd booed Shawn and he threw a fit. In the beginning it was just slight boos, but the way Shawn reacted to them, he basically turned the entire place against him. When it happened to The Rock at last years Summer Slam, he basically went with it and played to them, where as Shawn basically through his body language (and words) told them all to fuck off and stop bothering him. You could say it was a great performance to turn heel, but as is wasnt meant as such, it came off totally unprofessional.

[BrianR]

I am not saying he wasnt portrayed as a ladies man, I am saying that his act as a face focussed on the positive aspects rather than the negative aspects of his character, his mannerisms changed and the "ladies man" part of his act was mainly restricted to his entrance. Personally his character i thought was more an underdog than a ladies man while he was face.I 100% agree with you regarding his ability to attract the casual fan, but I do not think the drop in crowd popularity was due to casual fans, because WWF was not really attracting any new fans in this era, they were tuning in to the NWO.

[Terje Rindal]

I am not saying he wasnt portrayed as a ladies man, I am saying that his act as a face focussed on the positive aspects rather than the negative aspects of his character, his mannerisms changed and the "ladies man" part of his act was mainly restricted to his entrance.

If you analyze it down piece by piece, that may be right but I don't think many people would view it like that. The entrance, the sexy boy music, the heartbreak kid nickname, kissing the girls, the striptease routine, the Playgirl magazine....Shawn was portrayed asa ladies man no matter how you twist and turn it.

Personally his character i thought was more an underdog than a ladies man while he was face.

There was certainly a lot of underdog in him, with often giving up in size, and the extraordinary selling, but I don't think those aspects ever overshadowed the ladies man image.

I 100% agree with you regarding his ability to attract the casual fan, but I do not think the drop in crowd popularity was due to casual fans, because WWF was not really attracting any new fans in this era, they were tuning in to the NWO.

Obviously it's all speculation, but it also depends how you describe the different types of fans. I'd say the casual fans not really into wrestling would never turn in to see Shawn Michaels, and only the hardcore wrestling fans would make sure they WOULD turn in to see him. For those in between, it's pretty hit and miss, as many got into his awesome ability, but on the other hand, many got turned off, as evident by the drastic drop in house show attendance at this time.

[Pegasus Kid]

What was so unprofessional about the way he conducted himself during those matches? I haven't seen either of them so I'd appreciate it if you could fill in the details.

Well, in the Vader match, Vader was out of position when Shawn was gonna do the elbow off the top. Shawn instead chose to stomp him 3-4 times as hard as he could right on the face, along with saying every dirty word in the book to him, audible (sp?) on camera.In the Sid match, the crowd booed Shawn and he threw a fit. In the beginning it was just slight boos, but the way Shawn reacted to them, he basically turned the entire place against him. When it happened to The Rock at last years Summer Slam, he basically went with it and played to them, where as Shawn basically through his body language (and words) told them all to fuck off and stop bothering him. You could say it was a great performance to turn heel, but as is wasnt meant as such, it came off totally unprofessional.

Whilst I don't like to judge a wrestler on their supposed backstage influences, it's sometimes hard to do. What HBK did in those matches in my opinion gives a clear indication about the real Michaels, a person who, if he doesn't get his own way, would take his ball home with him. It's very easy to see that HBK was a very talented wrestler, but it seems clear that he was a person who had to have his own way. I know this debate has nothing to do about backstage antics, but when it's brought into the ring it's hard not to see it as a factor.Also, I know many ex-wrestling fans who were in to the whole 'attitude' era. Most of them were huge fans of Austin, but a large proportion also had fond memories of Shawn Michaels. I would say most of them were casual fans as they would only watch it when it was going through a phase of popularity, but many of them were Michaels fans.

[BrianR]

Totally,mate, I cant really speak for any other fans, especially American fans ,regarding their perception of Michaels character.Also the casual fans may have been put off by WCWs attempted burying of WWF at the time"Micheals beats the big guy with a Superkick that wouldnt beat the guy down at the YMCA (or something similar)" This would have caused many to view Michaels with a negative attitude before they have even started watching.

[Gossy]

One of the things that really put me off Michaels was his on-screen tantrums, they just me feel really awkward and uneasy, like a wrestling version of John McEnroe. I can remember first seeing Shawn lose it at SummerSlam 95 when he beat up a ladder, aside from the Sid/Vader matches Terje has mentioned, he was at it again during Mind Games, he was supposed to come off the 2nd rope onto Foley, only Mick wasn't there, so he stormed across the ring after him screamed "COME ON!" and started laying into him until Foley cut him off with a slap to the face. Not to mention the various photographers, camermen etc.. he swore at or flipped off.Didn't Michaels always like to have his matches completely planned out before hand? this could explain his having a fit if something didn't go according to his plans, but isn't a good wrestler supposed to be able to adapt to this sort of thing in a match without throwing a tanturm

[Guest Nigel Law]

Bret had the same 'rare personal quality' as Shawn did, it was just on another level

It may have been 'on another level' but it was certainly far from being a 'rare quality'. As a wrestler Bret was fantastic and he got over on the basis of that he was pushed as a top-notch athlete and great worker. Very similar to a modern day Chris Benoit with the exception that Hart was given a chance at the top and he took it with open arms, unlike 'The Crippler' who is yet to really be given his opportunity to shine. Young children saw Bret as role-model whom they could look up to and idolise (almost like they did with Hogan). Here was someone who was the epitomy of a model human being: straight laced, sensible, self respecting and...plain. There was no 'edge' to Bret and his 1997 heel turn was made only memorable because of how the fans had slowly began to turn on him and favour the anti-hero Stone Cold. A great worker who the fans could look up to and aspire to be, Bret was over but I for one doubt that there was any 'rare personal quality' involved.

Not sure I have seen that Kerry match. I have around 4-5 Flair-Kerry matches, and all of them are at least very good. Which one is it that you're talking about ?

What I'm referring to was a 60:00 match they worked in January 1985 in Fort Worth, Texas. Basically the match was being taped to be shown a few weeks later and it was expected to do good numbers because Kerry was a big star in the territory at the time. Word is that during the day he received a phone call to tell him that his pet Dog had died (apparently run over but that is just folklore) but many people have questioned the sincerity of this story. He disappeared without trace and was found merely ten or fifteen minutes before ring-time, inside his car and totally out of his head. Not knowing what to do he was literally ushered through the curtain and forced to work an hour long match with Flair.

In my view Bret did too, but that's a closer call.

Have to disagree with you here. It does revert back to personal preference yet again and it is a close call, but for me Michaels matches with Mankind, Undertaker and Razor were 'Match of the Year' winners for their respective years. Bret vs Owen at Wrestlemania X was sensational but over-shadowed by the show-stealing Ladder match which really captured the imagination of wrestling fans the world around.

Shawn wanted to go out there and prove that he was on the level when it came to a long mat based match, which he clearly wasn't. Note that I said 'my guess', as there is no proof of this.

As much as I appreciate what you're trying to imply, the lack of anything tangible to even indicate that this was the case means that the theory doesn't carry any weight at all. None of us know what happened but I strongly doubt that this was the reason for the match dragging early on, and if anything I may suspect it was the opposite. Bret as the more experienced in this situation wanted to show his excellence and insisted that he would general and carry the match largely by himself. Makes sense as the match only really got going towards the end when we saw HBK go into big bumping, fast paced mode which had been missing from the earlier exchanges.Seems like the more likely scenario in my opinion but again I have no grounds on which to form the theory so it is mere speculation.

To play devil's advocate here; what great workers do you feel couldn't have good matches with Kama or Sid ? From my memory, their matches were for the most part horrible, but that was due to them being in the ring with Undertaker, Mabel, Nash etc. When in there with the likes of Owen and Bret, the matches were always at least watchable, if not very good.

Bret and Owen did have some good matches with sand-baggers such as Kama and Sid, to say anything to the contrary would both be incorrect. However HBK was able to go one step further and have a very enjoyable match which was maybe just half a snowflake better, but still superior none the less. The only logical explanation for this can be that his fast-paced, slick and 'size' based (changing approach dependant on his opponent) style of working came off better against the big-men who were slow and cumbersome in the ring. He gave Nash (controversial), Undertaker (not so) and Sid (potentially controversial) the best matches of their career, further rubber-stamping the point he was able to go a notch beyond the other great workers in the company.

Again, not taking anything away from Shawn, but carrying an injured wrestler to a watchable match hardly makes him any kind of unique.

The examples you have used here aren't necessarily the best. HBK took HHH to a decent slug-fest last year in only his fourth high profile match since March 1998. To do this despite the ring-rust which built up is impressive and although he looked less sharp than usual, it was a gutsy and hearty performance from Michaels. The Austin vs Benoit match was in 2001 when 'The Rattlesnake' was having the best matches of his career and the Summerslam 1992 epic was as Bret was on the verge of taking the main-event by storm. Neither instance is comparable to Armageddon on the grounds that Michaels had only worked a handful of matches in four years and was then forced to carry an injured HHH in a 30:00 plus battle that was gimmicked to the hilt.Looking back at my review it is fascinating to see how the conversation has progressed but not once has the level of discussion waned. The UKFF needs more threads of this nature and I am sure that Terje will be in full agreeance with this.