HBK: 'From the Vault'

[BionicRedneck]

contested great 'big vs small' battles with both Vader and Sid in 1995 and 1996 and took them to some of the most exciting matches of their lives.

Seriously Vader has had a dozen better matches than that. That Sid match was great for Sid, but not great compared to other great matches.

No-one else can boast of doing this

Doing what? Carrying big slugs to great matches? (although Vader was never that. In fact he was a better wrestler than Shawn, IMO) If so, surely Flair did it even more often than Shawn.

Quite simply, despite his flaws and lack of a traditionalist approach, HBK was the man in the WWF circa the mid-nineties.

I can't see how. Bret had better matches than Shawn did, and was a better Champion.Oh, and this discussion owns~!

[Guest Nigel Law]

I can't see how. Bret had better matches than Shawn did, and was a better Champion.

The discussion has come back full circle and we're now comparing Bret and Shawn yet again. For me, HBK had the better matches of the two on a regular basis, although I will admit that Bret was indeed a superior WWF champion to Michaels in the sense of how he came across and the manner he carried himself. However that isn't relevant at the moment and we're looking at the ring work of both men. The argument has been laid out many, many times in the thread and there is little point re-treading the same ground yet again. From a personal perspective HBK was a notch above Bret both in terms of the all-round package as well as having the ability to put on fantastic matches with any opponent, in any enivornment on any show. Flexability was the key with Michaels and the fact that he worked so many 'firsts' - i.e. Ironman, Hell in a Cell- is testament to this.

Seriously Vader has had a dozen better matches than that. That Sid match was great for Sid, but not great compared to other great matches.

The match was great for Sid and it was the best of his career. Other workers could barely put on something watchable when in the ring with him, but HBK took him to his most enjoyable match and that deserves the upmost credit. I consider the Summerslam 1995 bout with Michaels the best Vader had on U.S. soil, so again HBK deserves kudos for another world class performance and another superb little outing. My quote of 'no one else can boast of doing this' was related to HBK carrying Sid to a solid encounter, although in terms of working with the 'big slugs' and making them look great in the ring, few were as apt at it as Michaels.

Oh, and this discussion owns~! 

Now that is something we agree on.

[BionicRedneck]

Seriously Vader has had a dozen better matches than that. That Sid match was great for Sid, but not great compared to other great matches.

I consider the Summerslam 1995 bout with Michaels the best Vader had on U.S. soil, so again HBK deserves kudos for another world class performance and another superb little outing.

Vader's matches during the feud with Sting were much better, as were Foley series and arguably the match he had with Flair at Starcade 93. In the WWF alone he had a better match at Final Four. I didn't think that the Michaels-Vader match was all that, to be honest.

although in terms of working with the 'big slugs' and making them look great in the ring, few were as apt at it as Michaels.

Flair was better.

[Gossy]

For some reason Nigel, everytime I try to post with a quote I get kicked off UKFF hence my non-quotes I suppose it all comes down to personal taste to me I could say that Flair never had a bad match in a certain period, but then I'm biased towards Flair so that wouldn't really be fair, but then Flair did have a passable match with El Gigante, but by no means was it good, I seriously doubt any of the workers we've mentioned could have a good match with a total bum, like say, Billy Gunn The point i'm making I guess is we're all biased towards certain wrestlers and what others may see as so-so we may see as being quite good, so is the joy of being a fan of a certain grappler.

[Gossy]

I took so long to post, that all these other points came up!I'd have to say that Sting v. Vader Superbrawl 3 was superior to SummerSlam 96, which I think was ruined due to all the re-starts (but we won't go into that lol)I may be alone but I preferred Sid v Hart at In Your House - It's Time (stupid name) to the Survivor Series 96 match. Still we all know Sid's best match was at Wrestle War 91 :laugh:In all seriousness, where do you guys say benoits match with Sid at Souled Out 2000 stands, or maybe even their match at Fall brawl 99?

Edited September 17, 2003 by Gossy

[BionicRedneck]

My favorite Sid match was the Wild Card match at Survivor Series 95. Sure the match was the shits but Sid shouting "SHUT UP! SHUT UP! SHUT UP!" at some little kids was fucking hilarious.That or the one where he snapped his leg.

[Terje Rindal]

Take the Michaels bumps out and he is still better than Hogan, which kills off the logic behind what Terje was saying.

Yeah, I didn't word myself very well there. The Hogan reference came after reading your "larger-than-life personality and extrovert show-boating". Not comparing the two, but merely asking what your thoughts on Hogan were. I agree with your views on him though, I always found him very boring to watch. Can't say he was a bad worker, because he had the formula that his fans wanted, but personally I never liked him.

Hogan could work a crowd like no other, Bret Hart could put on a wrestling clinic in the ring, but how many were able to combine both charisma and the ability to have great matches as seamlessly as HBK?

As Redneck said; Flair, Austin and Bret could. I'd also ad names like Randy Savage, Terry Funk and Ricky Steamboat to that list. HBK was great, but hardly unique. Bret certainly had a lot of charisma, but as Redneck said, it wasn't as obvious as Shawn's. Not as over-the-top in other words.

Hence the Shawn Michaels-Diesel match although both guys worked hard (and taking Vachon's leg was pretty bold) it does seem to have lost some of it's shock value due to the recent plethora of hardcore matches recently, but still as Terje said it is only fair to look at it in it's era.

I actually think this match holds up very well, even today. It was kinda different from the spot-based HBK matches, in that it's strong points were the extraordinary selling and the little man-big man/friends-turned-enemies storyline. It was groundbreaking at the time for the power bomb through the announcers table spot, and some use of other objects, and it even featured the first ever Orihara moonsault in the WWF, but even without the innovations I still think it's an awesome match. The only US matches I'd have above it from 1996 would be Rey/Juvi ECW, Rey/Psicosis WCW, and possibly Hart/Austin Survivor Series. Several Japanese bouts beat it, most notably Liger/Otani, Dragon/Otani and Kawada/Taue-Misawa/Akiyama.

For me, he was the one man out there capable of giving any worker the best match of their career on any given day.

I wouldn't go that far, but his ability to carry mediocre opponents was certainly very good. You just need to see his bouts with the likes of Kama, Sir Mo, Sid and King Kong Bundy to see that. Still, several others also had that same ability, so it doesn't make Shawn unique.

He contested great 'big vs small' battles with both Vader and Sid in 1995 and 1996 and took them to some of the most exciting matches of their lives. No-one else can boast of doing this.

Bret, Owen and Flair all comes to mind for having great matches with both Sid and Vader.

Flexability was the key with Michaels and the fact that he worked so many 'firsts' - i.e. Ironman, Hell in a Cell- is testament to this.

I won't take nothing away from Shawn, but this is faulty on several levels. Iron Man - it wasn't the first; far from it. Also, it's widely known as the match that exposed Shawn of being the greatest worker on the planet. A person called one of the all-time greats should have been able to do any match asked of him (ESPECIALLY with an opponent the caliber of Bret Hart), but Shawn fell on his ass here. Personally I like this match, but I realise it has too many flaws to be called any sort of legendary. HIAC - The Shawn/Undertaker match was a great one, and in my opinion, features Shawn at his very best. But still, I have to question whether he did any sort of innovation that night or not. In many ways it was just a normal match, combined with a cage match. They had the 'normal' match in the ring, and out of it, did a lot of normal cage match spots (using the cage for the battering ram etc). While great, it was hardly innovative. Of course, the spot were they both climbed to the top was, but that could easily have been the idea of Pat Patterson or someone else, so I don't know if Shawn is the person to credit for that. He deserves a tremendous amount of credit for what he did with the ladder match concept though, but in some ways, that have been topped by the Hardys now. While those matches weren't a notch on Shawn's selling wise, they murdered them when it came to spots, which was also a major part of Shawn's ladder matches.

I consider the Summerslam 1995 bout with Michaels the best Vader had on U.S. soil, so again HBK deserves kudos for another world class performance and another superb little outing.

I strongly disagree with that. Vader had better bouts in WCW with the likes of Flair (Starrcade 93), Sting (several, both PPV & UK tours) and Cactus (Havoc 93 and several on TV). I'd also say his final four match blew the Summer Slam match away, and I'd also consider his match with Owen at One Night Only to be better. Obviously it's all a matter of personal opinion, but that's my stand on it. Vader also deserves a tremendous amount of credit for carrying Ken Shamrock in one of his earliest wrestling matches, which to my knowledge, Shawn never did. And Vader probably had 20+ matches in Japan better than the Shawn match.

I may be alone but I preferred Sid v Hart at In Your House - It's Time (stupid name) to the Survivor Series 96 match.

I like the Hart match a lot due to the intelligent work of Bret, pluss the fact that Bret's heel turn slowly but surley had already started, and there's some neat little things in there which makes it an excellent bout. Not sure which one I like the most though.

Shawn's kip-up was sometimes as intelligence insulting as Hogan's "Hulk Up".

In many ways I would agree with that. Shawn's strongest point in my view was his ability to sell. Right up there with the likes of Morton and Steamboat, he did it like no other. While his spots could all be seen in various places in the world in the mid-90's, there were few who could sell like this man, if any. I used to love it when he was being totally beat up by the bigger oponent, only for him to make 3-4 attempts at a comeback, only to be cut off. Not sure if it's the Vader or Nash bout I'm thinking of (or both), but there's one where he uses some really smart work in his comebacks, in using his brain rather than superman comebacks to retaliate. The heel would cut him off once, twice...but Shawn would show the little attempts at coming back, using his brain, and his opponents own momentum against them. To me, that is excellent selling; psychology at it's best. When he did the kip-up that was all blown to hell. The over-the-top, yet realistic, progress of his performance was out the window. I guess you can class it as fighting spirit and all that like they do in Japan, but this was just way overdone. Try going to the gym and kill your legs and abs, and then after a hard workout, do the kip-up. It's practically impossible. I know it got pops and all that, but personally I think it took a lot out of the match.

[Guest Nigel Law]

As Redneck said; Flair, Austin and Bret could. I'd also ad names like Randy Savage, Terry Funk and Ricky Steamboat to that list. HBK was great, but hardly unique. Bret certainly had a lot of charisma, but as Redneck said, it wasn't as obvious as Shawn's. Not as over-the-top in other words.

Not that I disagree with what you have said regarding the other workers listed, it's just that in my eyes Shawn was a better rounded performer than they were. As a worker he was inferior to Flair but in terms of personality and charisma it's a close run race, but for me HBK edges it on the basis that both his heel and face characters were fantastic over the years. To say that Bret's charisma wasn't over-the-top is a contradiction. The dictionary definition of charisma is; 'A rare personal quality attributed to leaders who arouse fervent popular devotion and enthusiasm.' Michaels had that 'rare quality' where Bret hadn't. Yes, he could connect with the fans and he was over with the masses but where was the 'rare personal quality' which HBK, Flair and Austin had in abundance?!

I wouldn't go that far, but his ability to carry mediocre opponents was certainly very good. You just need to see his bouts with the likes of Kama, Sir Mo, Sid and King Kong Bundy to see that. Still, several others also had that same ability, so it doesn't make Shawn unique.

It makes him unique in the sense that during his peak he never had a match which would be considered horrible. Even Flair can't boast of a record without such belmish, as his 1985 match with Kerry Von Erich was painful (through no fault of Flair's though) and thought of to be among his worst ever. Von Erich was drugged beyond all realms of reality but the fact remains that it did happen and it's in the history books. Here's a challenge for you Terje: find me a terrible HBK match and I will find the tape of it (if I don't have it) and re-watch it, then admit that HBK wasn't on the same level as Flair, because I am certain that there are few in circulation, if any.

Iron Man - it wasn't the first; far from it. Also, it's widely known as the match that exposed Shawn of being the greatest worker on the planet. A person called one of the all-time greats should have been able to do any match asked of him (ESPECIALLY with an opponent the caliber of Bret Hart), but Shawn fell on his ass here. Personally I like this match, but I realise it has too many flaws to be called any sort of legendary.

This was the first televised 60:00 minute match in WWF(E) history which is why I referred to it as a 'first', because on the big stage this was the inaugral appearance of such a gimmick. Shawn shouldn't shoulder the blame for the match not living up to expectation. It was his big bumps, desperate offence and super selling which made the last ten or fifteen minutes enjoyable. As the more mat based worker of the two who had done more hour long matches at that stage in his career, surely it was Bret who should have been generalling the contest and making sure that it flowed and was entertaining from start to finish. It wasn't a classic and there were flaws which will prevent it from ever being considered on that level, but to place the blame entirely on HBK is wrong, especially since he had limited experience of doing a match of that length. For a first-timer to that environment I thought he did a fantastic job especially towards the finish where he really upped the ante and got the fans behind him for his near falls.

Of course, the spot were they both climbed to the top was, but that could easily have been the idea of Pat Patterson or someone else, so I don't know if Shawn is the person to credit for that.

In 'From the Vault' Shawn makes reference to the fact that it was himself who had first suggested the idea of going to the top of the cell. So on that stake it was innovative but so too was the whole concept of a cage which engulfed the ring entirely and had a roof on top and the match could have bombed. But HBK entered a typically solid performance and immediately got the gimmick over through his big bumps which were replayed on WWF TV for years.

Obviously it's all a matter of personal opinion, but that's my stand on it. Vader also deserves a tremendous amount of credit for carrying Ken Shamrock in one of his earliest wrestling matches, which to my knowledge, Shawn never did.

As you say it all comes down to personal preference at the end of the time. Having seen a good deal of Vader both in the U.S. and in Japan, my feeling is that his match at Summerslam with Michaels was among the highlights of his career. His brawls with Sting and Cactus Jack were also highly entertaining but not on the same level as what he and HBK pulled off at Summerslam. HBK had a good main-event with Shamrock at the D-Genertation X PPV in December of 1997. As a wrestling match it was better than Vader-Shamrock but as a main-event it didn't cut the mustard due to Shamrock's inexperience at that level.It seems Terje that the arguments both for and against HBK are running out of gas, simply because we have both been round the block in this debate so many times. Again it keeps coming back to the point of personal preference and that's a stumbling block we will never get rid of. Neither of us are right or wrong. We're simply two fans who have conflicting viewpoints but at the same time the discussion and level of debate in this thread has been fantastic and it's an example of how in-depth and intelligent forums can get when the mindless insults and flames are avoided.

[Guest AndyPandy]

As you say it all comes down to personal preference at the end of the time. Having seen a good deal of Vader both in the U.S. and in Japan, my feeling is that his match at Summerslam with Michaels was among the highlights of his career. His brawls with Sting and Cactus Jack were also highly entertaining but not on the same level as what he and HBK pulled off at Summerslam. HBK had a good main-event with Shamrock at the D-Genertation X PPV in December of 1997. As a wrestling match it was better than Vader-Shamrock but as a main-event it didn't cut the mustard due to Shamrock's inexperience at that level.

Yeah. but Nigel the Sslam 96 match was meant to feature Vader going over for the belt, but HBK changed his mind at the last minute. How many times has Shawn lost a title without being pinned, or making references to "not laying down" for anybody.Not even Bret Hart would moan about losing the title. Apart from that "Incident" in Montreal, name me one time when Bret was difficult.Of course, that's another side of Shawn that we really don't need to cover, do we.

[Guest Nigel Law]

Yeah. but Nigel the Sslam 96 match was meant to feature Vader going over for the belt, but HBK changed his mind at the last minute. How many times has Shawn lost a title without being pinned, or making references to "not laying down" for anybody.Not even Bret Hart would moan about losing the title. Apart from that "Incident" in Montreal, name me one time when Bret was difficult.Of course, that's another side of Shawn that we really don't need to cover, do we.

That's not what is being debated here. I will be the first to admit that his behaviour was certainly not that of the model champion, but how different was he to Hogan, Bruiser Brody and other grapplers from years gone by who got consumed by ego. The thread is focusing on Michaels as a performer and has nothing to do with his 'out of ring' antics. He may or may not have been pencilled to drop the strap to Vader, but regardless of that, the match itself was entertaining and that is something which cannot be questioned.Bret being difficult or arsey about wanting to drop the title has nothing to do with this discussion. We're looking at what went on inside the ring and so what happened when they stepped back through the curtain is of little signifigance. I do see the points you are making and as I said, I am no fan of how HBK handled himself within the company, but that is a whole new topic altogether. Judging by the level of discussion in this thread, it is something which I look forward to with great anticipation.

[BionicRedneck]

in my eyes Shawn was a better rounded performer than they were. As a worker he was inferior to Flair but in terms of personality and charisma it's a close run race, but for me HBK edges it on the basis that both his heel and face characters were fantastic over the years.

Flair was a better heel and a better face. Michaels as a face in 96 bombed because many fans found it difficult to cheer someone like Shawn (see the reaction he got a SS 96?). As you say Flair was a better worker. Also, Flair was in a different league to Michaels when it came to cutting a promo. I don't really see anything (that matters) that Shawn has over "Naitch".

It makes him unique in the sense that during his peak he never had a match which would be considered horrible. Even Flair can't boast of a record without such belmish, as his 1985 match with Kerry Von Erich was painful (through no fault of Flair's though) and thought of to be among his worst ever. Von Erich was drugged beyond all realms of reality but the fact remains that it did happen and it's in the history books.

It's not fair to pick that match though is it? Michaels has had plenty of bad uns. His Iron Man match with Bret was hardly great, not to mention some of the shit he had to wrestle during the mid-90s (like Kama) or some of his crappy comeback matches (The three stages of hell vs. HHH was all kinds of stinky dogshit.)

QUOTE  This was the first televised 60:00 minute match in WWF(E) history which is why I referred to it as a 'first', because on the big stage this was the inaugral appearance of such a gimmick.

Depends on what you would call "the big stage" I suppose.

In 'From the Vault' Shawn makes reference to the fact that it was himself who had first suggested the idea of going to the top of the cell.

Yeah, but Shawn has often talked shat to put himself over.

As you say it all comes down to personal preference at the end of the time. Having seen a good deal of Vader both in the U.S. and in Japan, my feeling is that his match at Summerslam with Michaels was among the highlights of his career. His brawls with Sting and Cactus Jack were also highly entertaining but not on the same level as what he and HBK pulled off at Summerslam.

I don't mean to sound like a dick, but I think you should seriously go an watch the Sting matches again. They are much better than the Shawn match. As (I think) Terje said Vader had 20 matches from his time in Japan that were miles ahead of the SummerSlam match.

[Guest Nigel Law]

It's not fair to pick that match though is it? Michaels has had plenty of bad uns. His Iron Man match with Bret was hardly great, not to mention some of the shit he had to wrestle during the mid-90s (like Kama) or some of his crappy comeback matches (The three stages of hell vs. HHH was all kinds of stinky dogshit.)

The matches you have mentioned aren't exactly what you could call bad matches. In each instance they were at the worst, mildly entertaining, and I am still waiting for someone to find me a horrid HBK match. It's a credit to him that he was able to carry the likes of Kama, Sid and others to something worth watching; a task too impossible for so many other great workers at the time.

Yeah, but Shawn has often talked shat to put himself over.

And he's the only performer to ever have done so?

don't mean to sound like a dick, but I think you should seriously go an watch the Sting matches again. They are much better than the Shawn match. As (I think) Terje said Vader had 20 matches from his time in Japan that were miles ahead of the SummerSlam match.

It's all personal opinion at the end of the day. I could go and watch a Sting-Vader match right now but it wouldn't change my mind over the fact that the Summerslam match was superior. Vader himself praised Michaels for the match and considered it one of his best on American soil. He did have better matches in Japan, but I called this his best match in his time in the U.S. and I stick by my comment. At the end of the day though this is just my view on the matter. You disagree with it and that's fine, just don't lower the conversation by getting arsey about 'sounding like a dick' and coming across as patronising.Flair was a better worker than Michaels but he had equally as entertaining matches with a lot less talented workers. Sure, 'Naitch' was exceptional at carrying a match and he did so on many ocassion but there was just that intangible quality with Michaels which meant that whenever he stepped into the ring, regardless of who was in the other corner, you just knew you were going to get a fantastic battle.

[BionicRedneck]

The matches you have mentioned aren't exactly what you could call bad matches. In each instance they were at the worst, mildly entertaining, and I am still waiting for someone to find me a horrid HBK match.

Oh, that Three Stages of Hell match is utterly awful. It's 25 minutes of blow spots, sloppy and light brawling and crappy selling with no flow or little logic.

Yeah, but Shawn has often talked shat to put himself over. And he's the only performer to ever have done so?

Obviously not, but we are talking about Michaels here and his claim that he came up with a certain spot in HITC I.

[Guest Nigel Law]

Oh, that Three Stages of Hell match is utterly awful. It's 25 minutes of blow spots, sloppy and light brawling and crappy selling with no flow or little logic.

I wouldn't say the match is awful and considering that HHH was working injured, it was a decent effort made bearable by a solid HBK performance. This is Michaels years beyond his prime though and comparing him with Flair in this situation is a whole other debate entirely. The fact that he had to carry the match and did a reasonable job at it, after only working four matches in four years is yet further testament to his ability. It wasn't his best match but it certainly wasn't horrible, especially given the circumstances both surrounding himself and 'The Game'.

Obviously not, but we are talking about Michaels here and his claim that he came up with a certain spot in HITC I.

There is nothing which contradicts or undermines what he says, so until we hear otherwise it's a case of assuming that he did come up with the spot. Fair play to him because at the time it was a unique and pretty revolutionary sequence to incorporate into the match and most certainly one which paid off.

[Gossy]

I think in all fairness Nigel, touching on something we've discussed earlier it's just personal taste, as you are really entertained by Shawn michaels you find it difficult to see him in a bad match, I don't blame you for it, but that doesn't mean he's never been in a bad match, in my opinion I totally agree with redneck that match at armageddon was bleeding awful. Yeah, trips was injured but it was still a bad match, as you said earlier Flair had some awful matches with Von Erich who was out of his head on drugs, look at SummerSlam 92, Bret has said that Davey had been taking drugs that day and got totally lost throughout the match and Bret had to guide him through it, but that match is incredible.If you can personally sit through the Kamala match featured on Shawn Michaels - Hits from the heartbreak kid and say it's a good match then good for you, to me it was a pile of crap, ok, kamala did slap his belly and roar but that aside it was an awful match.Again, I think the sesame street magic words for the day are 'personal opinions' and 'entertainment' opinions, we all have them, but sometimes they can make our vision a little blurred to others points of view, i'll admit to doing it with some Flair matches, but again, i've seen some people comparing a 54 yr old Flair to a 38? yr old Michaels, it's not possible to do that when Flair was Michaels age today he was having some of the greatest matches i've ever seen.I mentioned it earlier, but I think i'll repeat it, you say only Shawn could carry Sid to a good match, Benoit did it at Fall Brawl 99, hell, Sting did it at Halloween Havoc 93, Goldberg and Sid had some decent bouts in 99, Vader pulled a good match out of Sid at In Your House - Buried Alive.Also, I thought Michaels made a pretty bad face, and, this is just my opinion, his whole character was based on a male stripper, hence the MSG96 reaction, it's not something that could appeal to a large population of Males, I'm not knocking what he did in the ring, but seeing him dancing and taking his clothes off and fiddling with his hair, could have put a lot of fans off him and they lost interest there. I'm not talking about 'smart' (I hate that word) fans just any fan in general thats flicking through the boob tube with a can of beer in one hand and a porno mag in the other, and unless that porno mag was playgirl I don't think he's gonna be to interested in Michaels, unless he's thinking 'God, I want to see this prick get his ass kicked' that's what i've always seen as being Michaels major flaw as a babyface.Sensible discussions, RULE!