HBK: 'From the Vault'

[BionicRedneck]

(Nothing wrong with the nip-up, it's called babyface fire)

It's not called babyface fire when he has had his back worked on for 10+ minutes and then he does the nip-up. Then it's called crappy selling.

[Naitch]

Just thought I would bring up a point that hasn't been mentioned about the work of Michaels and Hart. Whilst Hart always worked a full schedule Michaels, in any given year from about 1993 onwards never worked a full schedule and had more time to prepare for his big matches.

[edgecrusher]

(Nothing wrong with the nip-up, it's called babyface fire)

It's not called babyface fire when he has had his back worked on for 10+ minutes and then he does the nip-up. Then it's called crappy selling.

I'd say otherwise. The whole point of Shawn Michaels' character is that he's capable of going 'that one step further' than everyone else, that he has inner reserves of energy to call upon at the last moment and all that. The psychology behind Shawn's nip up is actually very complex, because the action is given its meaning ENTIRELY through the selling up to that point. By looking like he was about done, that he was spent and finished, he made the fans go ballistic when they realised he wasn't finished, and that he was going to go on for just a little bit more and MAYBE win the match before the andrenaline wore off. In psychological terms, of course. Its called crappy selling by you, because you blankly refuse to see it in any other light. -with a loo brushOther people have used the nip up in a similar fashion, but never to the same kind of results. The Rock used it to, a few times, and while he got a pop, it was never to the kind of meteoric levels that Shawn used to and sometimes still does. Maybe you should work out why people loved it when he did it so much rather than knocking it all the time and adding basically nothing to this discussion. I mean, how many times have you reiterated this exact same point? -in my pants

[Guest Nigel Law]

I'm not sure how much life is left in this discussion, if any, but allow me to make this post as a means of gathering my thoughts and answering all questions thrown in my direction over the last number of posts. What started off as a simple and harmless review of 'From the Vault' has ended up as a fascinating debate over HBK and has branched off into areas such as his selling, his 'rare quality', the best matches of his career and even, quite bizarrely, 'The Undertaker'.Terje raised an issue about what made him 'unique' and for me there isn't just the one area in which he excels: Shawn is the total package. The 'Heartbreak Kid' character did admittedly stem from a 60's Buddy Rogers and an 80's Flair, but Michaels took the gimmick to the next level and to the point where he made it totally individual to himself. This in itself sets him apart from the rest of the pack, but combine this with an innovative style of working (at the time), a cocky and brash demeanour, a catchy entrance theme, bundles of charisma, solid mic skills and the ability to switch between playing a heel or a face with ease. This describes HBK to perfection and he was, quite simply, one of a kind. Whilst Bret may have been a better text-book worker, Michaels still had the more entertaining matches in my opinion and certainly those which have stood the test of time well. Now a common theme in this thread has been calling into question any tangible quality which renders HBK unique; an 'X-factor' of sorts that sets him apart from any other performer to have ever stepped foot inside a wrestling ring. Whilst few believe that such a trait is in existance, I remain firm in the belief that Shawn Michaels truly was special. It may not have shown at the box-office or on PPV (an area that there can be no argument in) but for me, and a generation of fans who grew up idolising HBK, he just had that something extra. Even now at 18 years of age, sat in front of my computer with my increased knoweldge and understanding of the business, I just can't help but remember with fond memory what it felt like to watch HBK in action. Seeing him take a pummeling from his opponent it seemed as though the match was over, only for him to nip-up and come back to life with a flurry of offence. At the time what he did in the ring was awe-inspiring. My wrestling experiences had been limited to the WWF (and WCW) only and his incredible aerial display, big bumps and over-the-top selling made for an all round great contest. Regardless of what cumbersome oaf he was in the ring with, you were guranteed to see something out of this world, because this was Shawn Michaels and he just didn't disappoint. Period.I will be the first to admit that I am incredibly bias in such a situation where it comes to discussing HBK and the influence he had on the business. He introduced thousands of fans like myself to a whole new style of wrestling, and one which would rapidly become the most common and popular in the industry. The one underlying theme in this thread has not been any 'HBK hate', but simply the question of what made him so unique in my eyes. As solid a job as I feel I have done in putting him over, the discussion will always revert back to the fact that is personal opinion alone and nothing more. I hope you all can appreciate the argument I am putting across, even if you don't agree with it, but there is no 'right or wrong' answer in the discussion. Each of us is entitled to a certain point of view, and mine is that HBK was a prodigy of pro-wrestling: an exuberant, larger-than-life character who meshed together his charisma and arrogance to form a hugely entertaining and successful gimmick.On a final note, I have a problem with people nit-picking at things regarding Shawn. The nip-up is something in particular which was a fundamental part of his repetoire yet it is blasted by internet fans on the basis of 'poor selling'. Michaels didn't go out there to get a 'thumbs up' in the psychology column, he went out to have a great match and most importantly of all entertain the masses. Go back and watch some old footage and you will see that as a heel or face, people responded to the nip-up in the desired manner. Why? Because it was fun to watch and it raised the excitment level of a match ten-fold as you never knew what was coming next with HBK. So please stop being a 'smark' for a moment and go back and re-visit what attracted you to wrestling in the first place: the entertainment factor.I hope this post has answered certain outstanding questions and addressed a few key issues which have arisen in the thread. As always I look for feedback and this is no different, and even if you disagree with me, I hope you have enjoyed what I have had to say.

[Guest Stuart]

Hbk's tag match with nash v hall and waltman was really good, was on the"hits from the heartbreak kid vid" good heat and work.

[BionicRedneck]

I'd say otherwise. The whole point of Shawn Michaels' character is that he's capable of going 'that one step further' than everyone else, that he has inner reserves of energy to call upon at the last moment and all that. The psychology behind Shawn's nip up is actually very complex, because the action is given its meaning ENTIRELY through the selling up to that point. By looking like he was about done, that he was spent and finished, he made the fans go ballistic when they realised he wasn't finished, and that he was going to go on for just a little bit more and MAYBE win the match before the andrenaline wore off. In psychological terms, of course. Its called crappy selling by you, because you blankly refuse to see it in any other light. -with a loo brush

How is this different from Hogan's "hulk up" which gets slaughtered. Everyone thinks Hogan's done, then he comes back etc. etc. It's also not just the nip-up, but what comes after it as well. Shawn doesn't nip-up do a couple of moves and collapse due to exhaustion, pain or whatever. He nips-up and runs about hitting highspots as if he is fresh as a daisy. Good selling? not in my book. When RVD does it he gets hammered by the net.

Other people have used the nip up in a similar fashion, but never to the same kind of results. The Rock used it to, a few times, and while he got a pop, it was never to the kind of meteoric levels that Shawn used to and sometimes still does.

Rocky's back was never the main focus of his opponents offense for 10+ minutes of a match when he did the nip-up as far as I can recall.

Maybe you should work out why people loved it when he did it so much rather than knocking it all the time and adding basically nothing to this discussion. I mean, how many times have you reiterated this exact same point? -in my pants

So people loved it. I get that. People loved The Worm. People loved the hulk-up. People loved Rikishi sticking his ass in peoples face in every match. I understand why he was doing it. Because people liked it. People like Limp Bizkit and when Fred Durst spouts his crappy lyrics but does that make their music any less shite?

[cattle mutilation]

What started off as a simple and harmless review of 'From the Vault' has ended up as a fascinating debate over HBK and has branched off into areas such as his selling, his 'rare quality', the best matches of his career and even, quite bizarrely, 'The Undertaker'.

Its like the Eddie Izzard of wrestling threads!Sorry to chime in a bit late, but I'm in agreance with Bionic Redneck on this one. What bothers me about the nip-up was the fact that it spits in the face of everything that went before it. If the match was twenty minutes long, HBK would nip-up at the eighteen minute mark, bounce around the ring like a powerball hit a flying forearm, a superkick and 1-2-3 It'd be over, the finish of the match would totally negate the good work of the bulk. This happened in far too many HBK matches for my liking, especially during his 95/96 babyface run. Take his Good Friends Better Enemies match with Diesel, he gets powerbombed through the table and does he sell it? Briefly. Before running into the ring, kicking Nash's arse and pinning him in rapid order, and then ridiculously dancing around celebrating, when he should be laying dead on the mat selling the after affects of a brutal, gruelling contest. Its almost as though he used the nip-up to make his opponents look weak, after absorbing everything they could throw at him he'd just say 'Fuck that!' and finish them off with the usual. It made his bouts with Owen Hart and the Bulldog amongst others appear to be nothing more than extended squashes when really they wern't. Apologies if I'm covering old ground but its just really annoying watching him do it. Randy Orton you've been warned.

[edgecrusher]

The difference between the nip up and Hulk's 'hulk up' is that Hulk's selling was always awful, IMO. Frankly, I can't explain why or how Hulking up EVER worked. It just did. The nip up I can understand, appreciate, and enjoy. Maybe someone here or elsewhere can explain the hulk up, but I've always thought it looked utterly stupid and usually made no sense. And he didn't always do it when he was nearly out. The other thing is that the nip up is in a different category to the moves you mentioned, redneck. Those moves are 'silly' moves, which the fans like because they're funny. For some bizarre reason, Hulking up doesn't fit into that category, and neither does the nip up. Besides that, its not that people 'like' the nip up. They like the pay off to the psychological build up. That's what the nip up is: A payoff. -in my pantsI've never thought any less of Shawn's opponents because he nipped up. Never. -with a loo brush

[Terje Rindal]

The 'Heartbreak Kid' character did admittedly stem from a 60's Buddy Rogers and an 80's Flair, but Michaels took the gimmick to the next level and to the point where he made it totally individual to himself. This in itself sets him apart from the rest of the pack

Maybe/maybe not, but you still haven't explained what he did that made his character so unique.Like I said before, I don't see any uniquness in his character at all. --------------------------------As far as evreything else you say, you finally admitted to being very biased when it comes to Shawn Michaels. There's nothing wrong with that, as we all favor those we grew up watching. My favourite incarnation of Everton (I'm an Everton fan for those who don't know..) would be the 88-90 version, simply because that's when I started getting into them. Cottee, Sharp, Sheedy, Southall, Nevin & McCall -- I know these weren't the best ever, but like you, I'm biased. If you could see it from others point of view, those of us who watched before HBK became the man, and also had access to other wrestling besides WWF/WCW at that time, you'd understand that Shawn Michaels was nothing unique at all. He was very good, but he never even won Wrestler of the Year in the Observer, and Meltzer hyped him more than anyone. Quite simply, because there were better wrestlers out there. To come to some kind of 'conclusion' to our loooong debate; mine would be that if you take everything into consideration, there's no way Shawn Michaels could be called the greatest wrestler who ever lived. Everything you said he excelled at, someone else has done better. You could say he was the best all rounder, and while you'd have a strong case, that's always very debatable, and one that many would disagree with. Obviously wrestling is based on personal enjoyment, and in that case, Shawn Michaels could of course be described as the greatest wrestler to ever lived, but then again, so could Scott Hall. You've put your points across very well, and there's no doubt most of them are very valid. To sum it up; if this is the end of our debate, I have to say I enjoyed it a hell of a lot, and all the credit in the world to Nigel and Redneck (and all the others who contributed) for keeping it that long without ever being boring, or anyone resorting to stupid name calling and insults. I wish we would have more threads like this on here.

[Guest Fadda]

Great thread - some belated thoughts Nigel says that Shawn Michaels had unique qualities. I think Shawn Michaels was a great worker, and he's one of my favourites, but he was the arrogant showman, and that's not unique or rare in wrestling. Bret Hart DID have the 'rare quality' BECAUSE he was human, genuine, honest and 'normal'. In the crazy world of wrasslin', that stands out, and made him special. He connected with so many different people and had such a wide appeal - the casual fans, the serious fans, the kids, men, women of all age groups and was loved internationally. People were able to sympathise and understand him, and there was something very real about him in an outlandish world. Shawn was flamboyamt, outrageous, a ladies man, and was not exactly a rarity in wrestling, as Terje points out. Both were great, but Bret was better, and it was him who stood out of the pack, not Shawn.

[Guest TheFranchiseera2003]

I Liked the review and got my copy of from the vault last week and i have to say its very good , entertaining but also you see the Cocky HBK in 97 acting like a total tit DVD 1AWA Tag Title Match was pretty good on wrestling but wasnt enough to keep me entertained id say at least ** then there was the Ladder Match Between HBK and Razor for the IC Title which was a pretty dull match in places but picked up towards then end id say ***the iron man match to me is one of the highlights and id say people can say this is a overated match or a match of the year id have to say its a match of the year candidate and give it *****the extras on the first DVD are ok the highlight for me would have to be The Barbershop where the Rockers Split but i also enjoyed the TV Spots on The Ladder match and of course the Iron Man matchDVD 2 a no holes barred match hmm great diesal is in it and its fare to say that HBK carries the match to a ** good but nothing specialMankind v HBK was a great match , and its a suprise that these two could work so well together **** a star is knocked off though for the shite ending HBK V Undertaker not a bad match , shame HBK is on the recieving end for pretty much most of the match id sy about *** and a half good and first of its kind but seen better HBK V Triple H is a overated encounter entertaining and it looked good untill it started going Hardcore over all ** the high light being the Splash through the table my favourite extra would have to be Mankinds will i be a sexy boy promo F'n funny whilst the TV Spots are good on this ase well overall ***** for it as its very entertaining