Terje Rindal Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 Match FourNo Holds Barred MatchThis match was more of a testament to Michaels ability than anything else, as he entered a typically flawless performance en route to carrying Diesel to the best match of his career. The 'No Holds Barred' stipulation gave them free reign to brawl around the arena and involve foreign objects and other illegal spots, which undoubtedly added to the interest and aided HBK in his quest to keep it entertaining. Going toe-to-toe with a man who literally dwarfed him, HBK was able to show off his diversity as a performer as he displayed some fantastic brawling skills amidst his typical eccentric, fast paced style. Looking back this was a far from great match but at the time it was made very good both by HBK and the 'No Holds Barred' gimmick, which they used to their advantage. ** I think the ** rating is being very harsh. I remember back when this aired (before Sky showed the IYH PPV's), and Meltzer hyped it as a ****1/2 classic. When I finally got it from Butcher (no five day service on japanese shows in those days~~), I pretty much agree'd with that. Looking back, the work may have many flaws, but in many ways you can credit that very bout as the forerunner of thodays WWF main event style. What Bret & Nash did at Royal Rumble & Survivor Series 95, Shawn & Nash took one step further here. You can probably pick holes in it today, but judged on that day in 1996 it was one fucking great WWF main event. Bionic Redneck's comment about Bret working a much smarter match with Nash is spot on, but to me, this match may be more entertaining none the less. Bret's work was intelligent on a level Shawn could never possibly hope to achieve, but the drama and innovation these guys put on in this match, along with the over-the-top selling by Shawn made this one of the forgotten classics of the 90's WWF. Like with so many ECW bouts of the early & mid-90's, it hasn't aged very well amongst newer fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nigel Law Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 (edited) Few things I need to point out here. First and foremost I had actually scribbled down on my notepad that this was a *** calibre match but when typing the review up I neglected to put in the third snow-flake, so you can attribute the lack of a final star to human error.Secondly I am reviewing each match not on the basis of how I remembered them, but from sitting down last week and watching the DVD from start to finish. Sure back in the day Michaels vs Diesel was a good IYH main-event and it had a tidy finish to boot, however unlike the rest of the matches, it hasn't stood the test of time well. That's the point I want to get across as forcefully as I can: I am reviewing the DVD and the matches from a 2003 stand-point, or simply, what I made of them whilst watching last week and not back in 1996.Out of all the matches on the DVD this came off looking the most dated despite a typically giving and colourful performance from HBK. I still rate this the best match of Nash's career and after re-watching the Survivor Series 1995 match with Bret for comparison, I would now give it a **1/2 in relation to the *** for Diesel vs Michaels. Sure what Bret did with Diesel made sense and the end result was an intelligent, logical match but it just didn't have the excitement or the energy of 'Good Friends, Better Enemies'.This is the one pitfall people (myself included) can get into when reviewing a match from years gone by. What may have been revolutionary at the time has since become archaic and out-dated, with many of the newer fans not appreciating just how much of an impact it made. So in the interest of fairness, I put all previous experiences and ratings out of my mind, I sat down on Wednesday night and I watched 'From the Vault' in its' entirety. From there I wrote my review on the basis of what I had seen and not what I remembered from years ago. The rest of the matches on the card have stood the test of time well and some are even more special than I had first thought -Badd Blood-, but for me, the 'No Holds Barred' battle with Diesel just didn't look the part in 2003.Any thoughts? Edited September 13, 2003 by Nigel Law Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terje Rindal Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 This is the one pitfall people (myself included) can get into when reviewing a match from years gone by. What may have been revolutionary at the time has since become archaic and out-dated, with many of the newer fans not appreciating just how much of an impact it made. So in the interest of fairness, I put all previous experiences and ratings out of my mind, I sat down on Wednesday night and I watched 'From the Vault' in its' entirety. From there I wrote my review on the basis of what I had seen and not what I remembered from years ago. Fair enough. I don't think it's very fair to the wrestlers though, as you have to wrestle to entertain the fans at the present time rather than trying to wrestle a match that would look good in 10 years time. It always cringes me when I see the 70's AJPW tag finals listed as *1/2 on tape sites, simply because they are reviewed by fans not into old style wrestling. But as a recomendation to newer fans looking to get the DVD, I can see the point of basing the review on current standards. I still rate this the best match of Nash's career and after re-watching the Survivor Series 1995 match with Bret for comparison, I would now give it a **1/2 in relation to the *** for Diesel vs Michaels. Sure what Bret did with Diesel made sense and the end result was an intelligent, logical match but it just didn't have the excitement or the energy of 'Good Friends, Better Enemies'.I must disagree strongly with the **1/2 rating for Bret/Nash. While Shawn/Nash might not hold up due to the path wrestling has taken, and the fact that those unique spots can now be seen weekly, Bret/Nash is in a whole different ball game. Here you have the classic intelligent wrestler that was Bret Hart forcing Nash to go down HIS path, rather than do the standard hit & run style that was used in pretty much every good/decent match the likes of Nash, Sid etc were ever involved in. The match gained lot's of hype due to the table spot and Nash swearing, but while those can look outdated, I don't think Bret's work overall in that match can. I haven't watched the match in ages, but I saw their match from King of the Ring 94 not all that long ago, and I remember the Survivor Series match as better, due to them inserting previous spots into the match, as well as for the already mentioned table spot. I guess if you don't like the match as a whole, than fair enough, but would you agree that Bret's performance alone, not taking into consideration other aspects of the match, was a mark of a great wrestler ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BionicRedneck Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 Bret-Diesel at SS 95 is just a much, much better match. It's the basic "Bret Hart vs. Big Slug" match, but it's certainly better than the Shawn match. The two matches are a good example of how much better Bret is than Shawn. Watch the two table spots. The Shawn spot where one minute he's dead and the next it's superman comeback time and the Bret spot where Hart sells it as if he is dead and puts all his effort into one single move to get the victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nigel Law Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 Naturally the importance of working a match is to entertain the fans in the arena and those watching at home, not a generation of new supporters five or ten years down the line. That's just the style I chose to write the review in, seeing as how the matches took place over a span of a decade and so it just seemed like the fairest way to analyse the DVD. Had it been one show from one era then I would have written it in terms of how it came across at the time, but because there are matches on here from 1994, 1996 right the way up to 2002, it just seemed the most objective way of compiling my review.Bret vs Diesel was unique and I take my hat off to Hart for what was a very impressive performance. Again though, from a personal standpoint I didn't like the match as a whole, but I can appreciate the effort from Bret in doing something which was daringly different.Now I'm not saying that Bret wasn't a great wrestler, far from it, and I consider him to be one of the most 'intelligent' performers of all time. The only point I am making here is that his match with Diesel wasn't on the level of the match HBK had with Nash, but again this is just my own personal opinion, which I have backed up thoroughlly so I can't be criticised for it. Bret may have been a better mat-technician than Michaels, his psychology was undoubtedly light years ahead, but in the same vein HBK had some world class matches despite any issues people may have over his ring work.Michaels brought something unique and flashy to the table and it was his colourful, exuberant performances which made him the lasting star he has become. HBK or Bret has been a long-running debate for years now and while each man was special in their own right and had a list of merits anyone could be proud of, I can't look past Michaels ability to have great match night in and night out with any given opponent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BionicRedneck Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 I wouldn't say Shawn's matches were "unique" or even that flashy if you compare them to stuff outside of the WWF. Bret is seriously miles ahead of Shawn from an in-ring standpoint. Michaels gimmick matches are the best matches he had and they don't stand up nowadays because stunt fests lose there appeal over time, especially when more impressive stunts etc. are done these days. That's why Bret vs. Owen at WMX is still considered as great as it ever was and Shawn vs. Razor from the same show doesn't look as impressive. That's why the Bret vs. Diesel match is better than the Shawn vs. Diesel match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stuart Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 "Bret is seriously miles ahead of Shawn from an in-ring standpoint."I couldnt agree more, bret just got in the ring and did his stuff, no silly preening, posing and dancing from my man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nigel Law Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 "Bret is seriously miles ahead of Shawn from an in-ring standpoint."I couldnt agree more, bret just got in the ring and did his stuff, no silly preening, posing and dancing from my man. This had been a really interesting, in-depth and intelligent discussion until you chirped in. Shawn was a showman who played to the crowd, worked them up into a frenzy and delivered the goods whenever the bell sounded. Bret was the antithesis but in his own right was a world-class performer worthy of all the adulation and praise. I respect both men and consider them in the 'WWF Top Ten Workers Of All Time' list, but Stuart just because of what went down in Montreal in 1997 doesn't mean you can have a venegance against HBK.He was given a job to do and he did it, just like Peter Kenyon turned his back on Old Trafford this past week. All United fans were left seething but they still respect the hard work he put in at the club during his time there. It's the same scenario here and I ask that you put the 'screw-job' behind you and think of Michaels for what he was; a fantastic character and a tremendous worker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stuart Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 Nigel, Hbk was a great worker and had loads of charisma, was great on the stick i can never deny that man.But he showed what kind of guy he really was in montreal, on WWS he denies it to bret but years later he gets all brave and comes out with what he really did, he didnt have the balls to say to bret's face that he was in it.Why, cos bret would have(again) punched his lights out.Im not surprised that he did agree to it tho nigel as he just did not like bret.*Phew*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stuart Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 Hbk was one of the best heels i have ever saw as i can attest the times i cursed him big style while watching him yap his trap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terje Rindal Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 This had been a really interesting, in-depth and intelligent discussion until you chirped in. Agreed. Too bad we don't have more on these on here. I may disagree with Nigel's opinion, but he still backs up his points and they are all very valid. Why can't everyone do that instead of always hiding behind 'it's my opinion and I'm entiteled to it' ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nigel Law Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 This had been a really interesting, in-depth and intelligent discussion until you chirped in.Agreed. Too bad we don't have more on these on here. I may disagree with Nigel's opinion, but he still backs up his points and they are all very valid. Why can't everyone do that instead of always hiding behind 'it's my opinion and I'm entiteled to it' ? Spot on Terje. Discussions like this on a regular basis would make for a thriving forum and all involved would undoubtedly benefit from listening and countering the points made by others. As Terje said we disagree over an issue but the argument he is making is backed-up by valid, credible points and his own opinion, which I greatly respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stuart Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 It was sooooo sweet when the canadian fans chanted"WE WANT BRET"(Or something similar) at hbk on raw in montreal not that long ago.NEVER forget nov 9th 97. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nigel Law Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 It was sooooo sweet when the canadian fans chanted"WE WANT BRET"(Or something similar) at hbk on raw in montreal not that long ago.NEVER forget nov 9th 97. Candian fans have been chanting 'We Want Bret' at WWF shows since Novemeber 10th 1997. Please Stuart, no more references to Montreal eh? We know what took place and we know what the fall-out was. There have been an abundance of threads regarding the subject lately (coming off the back of the HBK and Y2J segment on RAW last month) and quite frankly it has been done to death, so let's leave this thread as a forum for discussing Shawn Michaels, his merits, his great matches and not Bret Hart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BionicRedneck Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 OK, lets not allow this to decend into another Montreal thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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