WU LYF 4 LYF

Cheers for the Gillingham tip back in the thread, put

West Ham, are reasonable odds away at Doncaster, maybe Southampton at Barnsley as well. Otherwise I don't think there's a whole lot of value, most of the games are hard to call although the odds mostly reflect that.

Question Time was pretty good, I thought John Prescott and the Archbishop of Canterbury came across especially well, and were very fair in their balancing of firm authoritative action against the perpetrators and proper rehabilitation of them, combined with action taken to combat social inequalities and moral ills that lead to such events.

May have missed this argument today but how many people disagree with Cameron when he says we dont have to spend more money on the Police and we can just remove paperwork and back office work to ensure we actually get Police Officers on the street?

I touched on this earlier in the thread. It's more that the police need to rethink the distribution of resources rather than needing more resources per-se. Special Support Officers were meant to provide a cost effective method of getting a more visible law enforcement presence on the street, but this has proved wholly unsuccessful. They are seemingly under-trained, with few powers and high levels of incompetence that have led them to become laughing stocks. Since their only powers seem to include on the spot fines for parking discrepancies or cycling on the pavement, they are also often hated as well as ridiculed.

In the light of this, I would rather abandon the entire force of specials and replace them with even a quarter of their number in real officers with real training and real powers.

I also think police need to be allowed to show more common sense. I'm unsure whether they're hamstrung by their orders or if the actual constables themselves have little room for maneuver; either way, I think they need to be given/to show a greater level of interpretation powers, so they do not simply enforce legislation rigidly and without any thought for personal circumstance. They need to be able to react to a certain situation and to act in a flexible manner. This would give them the opportunity to connect more with real people and to enforce law according to the values of society not simply due to the book of legislature.

Won

Yeah, the Cameron love-in is bizarre if it's occurring. He was on holiday, delayed his return as long as possible until it was clear it would look utterly ridiculous if it didn't come back, recalled parliament with no true agenda or direction, then approved the use of rubber bullets and water cannons that the Chief of Police is saying they don't even need and won't use. He's been just as incompetent and bumbling as the rest of them.

There has to be some kind of political/police casualty of all of this, surely? From the side of the politicians especially it's been handled atrociously, nobody has really come out of it well.

Looks like it's all dying down in any case, I've switched from all day Sky News to watching the test match.

All quiet on the eastern front. I've turned the coverage off and am watching a couple of John Hughes directed 80s teen movies instead. Looks like it's dying out, unless there's a second wave.

So the police AREN'T the tool of an unequal state, slanted toward a privileged elite?

The police aren't the 'tools' of anybody, that's simply rhetoric, they cannot be simply controlled like a puppet. They are their own organisation. I think most people would agree we live in an 'unequal state slanted towards a priveleged elite', so I'm not sure what you're getting at there. However, in your previous post you said I accused the police of oppression and of being 'ideological', neither of which I have ever claimed. I don't think they have a particular overriding ideology, merely certain prejudices of the organisation and many of the people they employ, which is not to say all.

You mean "oppression facilitation wagons" are zooming past every five minutes up here with "Ideological State Apparatus indicators" blazing.

You won't find a quote from me complaining about how the police have handled the riots, so don't try and put words in my mouth. I have only said that police in general are racist, pedantic, uncaring, suspicious of everyone, incompetent and out of touch with the concerns of real people, which they are.

I know someone mentioned a few pages back about people buying bats on Amazon would it be a good idea to report this information to the police so they could contact Amazon find out who is buying the baseball bats then arrest anyone in the areas of rioting.

Not sure how that would help, people could just say they are buying them to defend themselves in case their area/property is coming under attack. In fact, it's quite likely that's why people are buying them.

I meant the fear that violence could spread to other countries.

Ah right. Still, it's possible, given the volatility in a lot of these countries at the moment, especially Italy with the financial mire they're in. When there is existing unrest it's always possible that riots will spread. Look at the revolutions in the middle east, rising up one by one as they followed example.

Police cars are zooming past every five minutes up here with sirens blazing.

Probably an over reaction.

Maybe, but if this level of rioting was happening in, say, a South American or African country the government here would have issued similar warnings about travel.

Having just been around the city centre in Hull nothing has kicked off yet, contrary to reports. However, a lot of people are milling around in hoodies. Given that it's popular night out Sesh down Princes Ave tonight and then a few hundred metres away 15,000 people are going to a football match, I'd say there's a good 50% chance shit is going to go down. Police may live to regret sending all their officers down to London.

Girl on Facebook who wouldn't bullshit; "riots in hull, good times", guess it's spread up here.

Says where?

 

I'm in touch with a lot of people in Hull and hearing nothing.

Guy on the Hull Daily Mail website.

Also, reports on Facebook from a few people that "love living down spring bank when st stephens is getting ran sacked" and other statuses about it.

Princes Quay in Hull is getting ransacked apparently.

Someone with only the ability to stack shelves in Tesco is, of course, going to be much less worth to society as a whole than a surgeon saving peoples lives daily. Are you suggesting that the surgeon shouldn't earn a higher wage?

The surgeon is a good example of someone who provides an excellent service to society and deserves a large wage; even they get paid less than other people providing far less important contributions to society. Often people 'stacking shelves' have the talent and ability to achieve far more than this in life, yet due to poor opportunities and the cycle of the poor staying poor and the rich staying rich they never get to achieve these opportunities. When they get sick of their place in society, shit kicks off as seen in the last few days. Why is it you never seen anyone from a rich background stacking shelves? It's always the poorest of the poor who are strangled by their start in life.

It's a society based on contacts and 'who you know' and where you come from rather than natural ability.

My boss is paid more than me because i'm not capable of doing his job.

Do you not feel you may be able to do his job with the correct training? Is the pay separation in line with the difference in difficulty of the two jobs? It's not situations like this that are completely wrong, it's more situations of people who contribute little to wider society yet somehoiw make millions and millions and horde it themselves, not using it to improve society as a whole.

Why don't the cleaner get a better job? maybe go back to college or uni and better them self so they can get a better high paying job?

You make it sound easy, as if they have all these opportunities. College and Uni is expensive, especially with a family, so often they are stuck with their lot without the resources to change it.

Yet the product of their labor is.

Only in monetary terms. If the world worked on fairness from the beginning the most valued workers would be those who produced food, drink and industry to ensure safety. They are the basic needs of humanity, yet many who work to meet those needs (farmers across the world especially) are paid next to nothing in comparison to a divorce lawyer who is providing a service of far less value. Do you believe this to be fair?

Change it to what, you berk? To every job pays the same across the board?

Those who earn more should contribute more to areas of poverty. Of course, the tax system should facilitate this (and would do to some extent with higher tax bands for higher earners, if the government spread their resources properly), but since politics is utterly corrupt and mostly works for the rich rather than the poor this clearly does not work.

I don't think they work harder, I think they have higher intelligence, see openings and take chances. Either way, that's life, live with it.

Why live with it? Why not try and change it? No human being is worth more than another.

You going to City tonight? The game is either going to be the centre of the trouble, or will take up enough officers that it will act as a diversion for rioters elsewhere.

16.30 Emma Barnett has been speaking to Twitter about whether or not they are going to do anything about rioters inciting violence using the social media site. They have refused to do anything saying "the tweets must flow" and claiming freedom of expression.

Absolutely right as well, there should be no circumstances for prevention of free speech. In any case, more is happening in the BBM groups than on Twitter according to most reports, Twitter has merely facilitated a lot of the pictures and news to become public quicker.

They're trash, simply by their behavior, and they don't have any agenda outside of the surface level.

I agree that their interests currently don't go beyond having fun and stealing things, but they are not 'trash' - you can't say that thousands of people are simply cunts. Their behaviour overall is symptomatic with people who believe they have no future, no stake in the world, no voice to be heard and too much time on their hands. With strong leadership and a united front they could be inspired to actually fight for the cause of change, be it socioeconomic improvement or change in police/government attitudes. That's why it's a shame they have no real leadership to give the rioting a shape - it's taken something that started because of a good cause into something with no public sympathy because they have strayed from the initial central objectives.

Why the fuck should they? If they pay their taxes & earn their money who the fuck has any grounds to take it away from them?

Because it's an unfair society - a cleaner works just as hard as many billionaires yet enjoys 0.000001% of the rewards. How is that right? They should do the right thing and spread the wealth they have that they don't need. Or else we will have to accept an entirely inegalitarian system, and people will get frustrated and simply take what they want.

Yeah because these nobheads are really EARNING their respect.

These people treat the police with no respect because the police have always treated them with no respect.

Trained riot police have gone in from Humberside Police today too. Does make me wonder what happens if it kicks off up here. Mind you, our old bill are useless. They're even named after a county that doesn't exist.

Spring Bank is rumoured to be a target tonight, so if all the riot police really have left then all hell is going to break loose.

If these gangs had any sort of leadership they'd be getting together and delivering ultimatums; that Billionaires give half their fortunes up and re-invest it in society, that the police treat people with respect from now on, that the government will stop investing in foreign aid and foreign wars and start investing in deprived areas back home. That way, they may get people on side and actually make a change. Threaten destruction of other areas if the demands are not met.

Interesting comment by a Chinese dude on the BBC, saying how when riots kick off in the China and other 'undemocratic' states it's 'a product of autocracy', yet when riots kick off here commentators never come out and say 'it's a product of democracy'.

Leading the news all over the world, the Spanish and French newspapers are going with it, as is the Australian press and most of the US press. 600 comments on the article on the El Pais website, interesting to see the international perspective.

Hull City Centre is deserted, no police or anything. This city is far too lazy to riot.