bobbins

So Cameron's visit to Cairo was just a PR stop on his way to continue flooding the region with arms.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/fe...t-defence-trade

David Cameron's efforts to promote democracy in the Middle East by becoming the first foreign leader to visit Cairo were overshadowed as it emerged that he will spend the next three days touring undemocratic Gulf states with eight of Britain's leading defence manufacturers.

 

After a hastily convened stopover in Egypt, where he spoke of being "inspired" by protesters, the PM began a long-scheduled trade mission by landing in Kuwait, a key military ally. Britain has approved 1,155 arms export licences for Kuwait since 2003, worth a total of

I think it's more a case that if you don't get AV here, you won't get any change to FPTP in your lifetime. If the no vote wins, future governments will just say "hey, people voted in favour of FPTP, so no more referenda."

On the other hand, if we do get AV here, we're no more likely to move on to real PR. If AV is a disaster (quite possible), they'll all say, "See, we never should have changed, back to FPTP forever" a la Canada. If it's not a disaster, we'll be stuck with AV forever like Australia, as our democracy narrows to a permanent coalition and opposition, effectively a two-party system.

Either way we're fucked unless people really stand up and demand PR. Interested to know if they're going to count spoilt ballots in the referendum.

Complicity? That's a strong word.

But accurate.

 

That depends entirely on your view of Israel and its position in the world. It's the only functioning democracy in the region. It's under constant threat from terrorists within its own borders. More than one of its near neighbours see its destruction as a primary foreign policy goal. I don't necessarily agree with all its policies as they relate to the Palestinians, but a major Arab nation that recognises it as a valid sovereign nation with a right to exist and which seeks peace with it (rather than more pointless conflict as it had in the past) is surely better than the alternative?

 

Let me stress that I'm not saying that Mubarak is a good guy, or even that he's "our bastard" so we should protect him. I'm just saying that the whole region is a lot more complex than a lot of people would like to think. There is horrible shit going on on all sides, whether it's Egypt abusing its own citizens or Israelis settling on Palestinian land or the Palestinians bombing fuck out of Israel or whatever else. We should either go in and "impose our will" on them all or, more sensibly, we should stand well back and only give them support when 1. they ask for it; and 2. it's advancing a genuinely just cause. For example, now that Mubarak has said there will be elections soon, I'd be more than happy to send whatever help they need to make that happen in the easiest and best way possible.

Wow, interesting interpretation. I'm guessing by your tone that we're on completely opposite sides regarding the Israel-Palestine situation, so we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm of the opinion that Egypt are absolutely complicit in the inhumane and immoral blockade of the Gaza strip.

Of course it's a very complex situation, but I don't see how anyone interested in human rights can defend Egypt's actions re Gaza. It just goes to show the weakness of Israel's only functioning democracy in the region, that they need to be propped up by a repressive dictatorship. They may be the only democracy, but they clearly aren't acting in the best interests of the region as a whole.

Complicity? That's a strong word.

But accurate.

Oops, got it mixed in with the Twitters I'm following

 

"I hear that Aaron Porter was called "Tory Jew Scum" by people who chased him. If true then it's a complete disgrace."

 

From @ARUSU_Pres president of Anglia Ruskin university.

there was no antisemitism. the chant was "we know you,you're a tory too!" his handlers accused us of saying "tory jew"

Words to this effect have been all over twitter. Apparently the only people who heard it as "jew" were Aaron Porter and a Daily Mail guy.

Why should we interfere? We interfered in Iraq to depose a genocidal psychopath and that was illegal and wrong. Egypt is far from perfect but it's at peace with Israel and willing to deal positively with the west. How would it be if Mubarak called for Cameron to resign over the fees protests? Fair elections would be nice, but it's a dangerous game to start interfering with the internal politics of other countries. A change in Egypt's leadership could cause a shitload more problems than it solves.

To compare it to Iraq isn't really fair, no-one's suggesting military action. The "peace" (complicity) with Israel, and deals with the West are the exact problem the people of Egypt have with Mubarak. Deals with the West that benefit the nation and not just the elite would be received differently, I'm sure. As for interfering, we're already balls-deep in the whole region. We've been funding Mubarak for decades, he can't complain about interference now that the people have spoken.

I can't believe that people are perfectly happy for the country of Egypt and the Middle-East as a whole to be run by unelected and hugely unpopular corrupt military dictators that don't act in the best interests of the people, line their own and their cronies pockets, exploit the resources of the land, silence political protest through violence and commit all kinds of human rights abuses. All through a cowardly and flawed fear that the void will be filled by Islamic fundamentalism. There's no evidence that the majority of Egyptians and Tunisians want an Islamic revolution rather than real democracy. And if they vote for Islamism then so be it. "Fair elections would be nice but..." indeed.

Bit of a silly argument about which crime is worse. Both are violent actions with the potential to kill. What's disturbing is that some members of the board think the Ian Tomlinson killing with the massive met/coroner cover up was all perfectly fine and dandy. No-one on the other side of the debate is defending the actions of the fire-extinguisher kid.

It was shocking and utterly unsurprising in equal measures. Well worth going out of your way to see, particularly for Pilger's attacks on the BBC and ITV news executives. Still on itvplayer.

You cant pick out specific instances for an attitude can you?

That's what I thought. Interesting that SmokeSoapBar seemed upset by the "attitudes" of people all on the opposite side of the debate to him. David, Lister and KoSwing. There's really no complaint to make, you're just frustrated because your constantly proved to be defending the indefensible.

Speaking of which, this is brilliant.

What a ridiculous slant to that interview. "There is a suggestion you were rolling towards the police in your wheelchair"

Well I cant speak for the guy who brought it up but for me its more to do with his attitude to other peoples opinions.

In what specific instance?

Do you understand my meaning when I say "attitude," David?

Yeah you mean "has a different opinion to me".

 

Attitude has nothing to do with opinion.

Exactly, David doesn't have an attitude, SSB just disagrees with him.

 

I dont think so, I think most people can see what SSB is talking about.

Nonsense, which particular post shows a bad attitude?

Do you understand my meaning when I say "attitude," David?

Yeah you mean "has a different opinion to me".

 

Attitude has nothing to do with opinion.

Exactly, David doesn't have an attitude, SSB just disagrees with him.

I wish they'd do more to protect useful degrees. Maths, Sciences, Engineering, Business and the rest that produce useful, productive skills. Making Music, Art, Drama students etcetera pay a lot more is fine, I have no problem with that but we desperately need more useful people leaving University.

What ridiculous bullshit, and this is the exact reason that the marketisation of education to this extent is completely wrong. Music, Art and Drama all enrich society. Culture is vital for the modern world. People who study culture and the humanities do it out of interest in the subject, a desire to educate themselves and improve their skills. This is what education is for. Education doesn't have the sole reason of existence to get a high-paying job as possible. These are skills that are less likely to lead to high paid jobs, they're even very likely to not lead to jobs at all within the industry that has been studied. Yet they should pay more for an education that tries to culturally enrich society, when they're less likely to be able to pay it back?

And what this marketisation creates is the people who do study "useful" subjects like Maths and Science, end up getting into financial services because they've been taught that money is the be-all and end-all, and they need to pay off their massive debts, instead of using their skills on something that could really benefit society like medicine, scientific research, green technology etc.

Most people I know from school and university got a degree then went back to working in a shop or call centre, or even started learning a trade that they could've started learning at sixteen. The degrees were meaningless, and achieved fuck all other than lining someone's pockets with the interest on the loan repayments. And even that was stupid, because half the people aren't making enough money to have to pay the loan back anyway. The ones protesting to keep the system the way it's been for the last while need a shlap. Whoever decided to "upgrade" the polytechnics in the first place needs raping.

Unpleasant casual rape-talk aside, who cares if people get a degree then start learning a trade they could have started at 16? Education is a good thing. An educated society is a happier and more productive society. Give me an electrician, plumber, plasterer with a degree and a bit of knowledge of the world outside his bubble over one that went straight out of school into an apprenticeship and never left his home town, any day.

Education is not a commodity for individual investment, depending on likelihood of returning a profit, it's an essential part of a civilised society and the only way we can grow as a nation.

Do you understand my meaning when I say "attitude," David?

Yeah you mean "has a different opinion to me".

Did anyone watch the Trillion pound horror shows on C4 last night?

 

The best show the channel has ever produced, the ridiculous spending policies of successive governments have brought the UK nearly to its knees, 4 million more people than needed in the public sector. The show was just astoundingly correct. It showed up Labour and the Unions immeasurably who everyone with even a modicum of knowledge haven't been listening to anyway.

 

Our children will suffer for these policies considerably worse than we do now, they're borrowing tens of billions a year just to pay into the public sector pensions, an enormous time bomb of itself. The cuts are exactly like emptying a free flowing bath with an eggcup.

I only needed to see the trailer to be amazed that a show this ridiculous could be commissioned. Then I realised that it was made by the same sociopathic neo-con climate-change denier that C4 occasionally roll out to be controversial and rile up anybody with one ounce of human empathy. The guy's Ayn Rand-level lunacy.

Alan Johnson in Stephanie Flanders report was continuing his hyperbolic nonsense.. Its now '1 million jobs' that are to be lost according to Mr Johnson. I think he has been watching the Fifth Element again and is painting George Osbourne as Jean-Bapitiste Emmanuel Zorg.

The 1 million job loss prediction comes from noted Commie bastards PriceWaterhouseCoopers.

As for May being before September, the cuts made in May take time to be implemented and for the effects to be analysed.

I have empathy with people in other situations, I cant be arsed with it though at present. I cannot take on the weight of the worlds problems, especially when there is fuck all I can do about it realistically anyway. The reason that they have become' demonised' in your view is because breaking away from all that is how Iam able not to be sucked in. If I dont associate with that I am still 'normal' and am able to function. If I start associating with that, its 'game over' as seen before when Iam dependent on everything and everyone.

That's what I'm talking about. You're so desperate to separate yourself from "the victims", that you are a party to that victimisation of people in tough situations. You don't need to push others down in order to build yourself up. No-one's asking you to take on the world's problems, just to develop a bit of understanding.

Your current situation must have been a drastic shock to your worldview. Rather than developing empathy with your fellow humans in similar situations, you seem to have pushed against the evidence with all your psyche, to the point where you have become utterly deluded and sought any means to confirm your existing worldview, no matter how counter-intuitive. As a result, your views have become even more extreme, unpleasant and unsympathetic.

 

Even if you were pushed onto the streets or to a point of permanent disability by this drastic attack on the welfare state, you'd be railing against the "scroungers" in the same boat as you, daring to claim the benefits that they are fully entitled to thanks to our living in a civilised society.

 

Ive been really skint before poverty stricken ( technically Iam now but I have quite a good standard of life seen as I havent done fuck all to earn it), through happenstance, I didnt bleat cry or expect anything from 'the man' I didnt wail about how the system or the government failed me. Nor did I sit around and let myself become victimised

 

I went out and found myself 2 p/t jobs, applying for loads in the process and not giving up until I found work, and still holding done a full time university place. It wasnt enough, but it helped. My health was already to shit (1st period of kidney stones) so doing both jobs didnt last due to ill health and I had to go to the University Hardship fund.. It was either that or have to quit uni and be homeless.

 

I have empathy with those who are ill and out of work and cant do things that they should, sitting back and letting it control and define you is something that leads very quickly to depression and other problems. Ive seen it first hand with a footballer who's knee ligaments snapped and ended his career. Okay he wasnt at a ny great level but it was all he knew and he went from outgoing lovable type of person to a raging alcholic recluse with an angry streak that would see him batter his missus. It was he was something of a family friend, me mum tok it upon herself to help him out, as no one else would, and eventually she pulled him out of the depression got him a job and back on track with life, ( me mum dicthed her then career and went to become a social worker of the back of it)

 

My point is a willingness to help yourself, and a refusal to give up are things that can help people through. The depression side of things is absoulutely fucking horrible and bleak, but it ultimately in some cases you just have to man up and get the fuck on with it.

 

In some cases there are going to be times when people cant work at all ever despite what they want to do (waves hand) you just have to channel yhour energies in other positive ways.

 

People who for whatever reason cant be vicitims all the time, and going back to the report on Merthyr, it was clear that the poor social mobility and the ingrained nature of the beast ( believing their own copy as it were) means that there is a refusal to help themselves inorder to not be ostracised by society. Ironically they are already ostracised because the media label them as being 'shirkers' Ive even talked to people from the North east and the ripped apart mining communities up there ( Ashington for example) re the bus and train prices and frequency etc and if they were getting the same prices and attention then they would jump at the opportunity. Ashington is 10 miles closer to Newcastle than Merthyr is to Cardiff is but there is no train station and it can be way more expensive than

Your current situation must have been a drastic shock to your worldview. Rather than developing empathy with your fellow humans in similar situations, you seem to have pushed against the evidence with all your psyche, to the point where you have become utterly deluded and sought any means to confirm your existing worldview, no matter how counter-intuitive. As a result, your views have become even more extreme, unpleasant and unsympathetic.

Even if you were pushed onto the streets or to a point of permanent disability by this drastic attack on the welfare state, you'd be railing against the "scroungers" in the same boat as you, daring to claim the benefits that they are fully entitled to thanks to our living in a civilised society.

False consciousness of that guy is unbelievable.

...and bus subsidies have been slashed.

Nobel prize winning economist, Paul Krugman's take on the CSR:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/22/opinion/22krugman.html

In the spring of 2010, fiscal austerity became fashionable. I use the term advisedly: the sudden consensus among Very Serious People that everyone must balance budgets now now now wasn

QT was fucking great last night. Caroline Lucas owned it. Great stuff from Toynbee and Denham too. Hammond answering the Scottish guy's question about what measures are being made to drive the economy by waffling about Labour's deficit was hilarious. He might aswell have said "actually we're doing fuck-all".

 

Watch or not watch.. hmmmm that is the question

Why bother? You'll only ignore the truth.

QT was fucking great last night. Caroline Lucas owned it. Great stuff from Toynbee and Denham too. Hammond answering the Scottish guy's question about what measures are being made to drive the economy by waffling about Labour's deficit was hilarious. He might aswell have said "actually we're doing fuck-all".

You really are a fucking idiot. Half a million public sector workers losing their jobs, with zero growth measures put in place. Johnson's performance was excellent.

Even without legislation changes, sections of the media could take it upon themselves to highlight it more and campaign to try to shame some of them them into paying up instead of weaselling out of it. Attach a real stigma to the act of tax avoidance. Might not be all that successful immediately but it would certainly put pressure onto them

This is the exact problem. These fuckers own the media.