edgecrusher

I'll watch ROH, and I'll adore SHIMMER forever, but I will never help Vince McMahon make money ever again.

I'm not having a go at you or anything like that (and I'm aware I'm taking your point a little out of context but I think it's an important consdieration) but I think it's very naive to put all the blame for wrestling's ills at Vince's door. The style being wrestled on the independents is just as likely in many respects to lead to painkiller addiction with all the high impact stuff. I accept that they often don't wrestle the same schedule but the drug problems are there. Independent wrestling is filled with veterans struggling with addiction yet still being booked. Likewise I suspect many of the wrestlers doing well on the indies will be looking for a helpful doctor if WWE shows any interest.WWE's attitude to physiques and general tolerance of drug problems over the years is a huge part of the problem but it is not the only roster with a problem. I've no idea about the attitudes in ROH's locker room for example but I would be amazed if there was no issues there with recreational / prescription drugs etc.

The thing is that every independent or other promotion these days in some ways takes its cues from WWE. Either they establish themselves by doing something 'more' (wrestling high impact in ROH's case) or they use a lot talent from that promotion. The actual market in which wrestling exists was shaped by WWE. Doesn't matter what promotion it is, they have to interact at some point.So no, I don't think its naive. TNA's locker room is worse than WWE's for drugs, as far as I can tell, but Vince is the origin of the current problem in my opinion. If he changed his ways, other promotions could and might even have to.

How you can enjoy any installment of RAW these days I don't know. Doesn't seem that exciting from what I've heard. I boycotted WWE after the Guerrero storylines, and I'm never going back. I'll watch ROH, and I'll adore SHIMMER forever, but I will never help Vince McMahon make money ever again.Unless he somehow makes money through SHIMMER and ROH......Anyway, do we have confirmation that Daniel did or did not have Fragile X? Wasn't it reported that he and Nancy regularly attended a support group for Fragile X families? Just because Nancy's parents deny it doesn't mean its so. If indeed he didn't... bloody hell, it just gets weirder. Although killing him so he didn't have to live without his parents would still be a likely enough way of thinking. Man, what the hell was going through Benoit's head the day he killed Daniel? You could probably write an entire play based on that one question. I begin to wonder now, does the fact that Benoit seemingly went SO insane somehow absolve WWE of responsibility in the media's eyes? Nothing's going to change unless there's serious pressure put on the group, and that isn't going to happen if ultimately Chris' death is viewed as not being related to things like his ridiculous work schedule, constant pain, never being home and so on. To be honest I hope they DID play a part. I just want this fucking industry to CHANGE. The deeper you get into it, the bleaker and the dirtier and the darker it becomes. Yeah, WWE's performers put smiles on faces... but in the end it seems to cost their own far too often.Maybe melodramatic, and I guess they know the risks and the costs and all that lot, but still... it can't go on this way. It just isn't right.

GHB withdrawal? Huh. That would be a possible explanation. Considering how Benoit's been characterized by those who knew him - upstanding but intensely private - if he DID have a problem with drugs, I can't see him asking for help. Trying to go it alone would be both understandable and stupid, and it would explain why he was acting weirdly. Roid rage lasts moments... withdrawal lasts a lot longer.This toxicology report could be one of the most significant documents in wrestling history, depending on how the media react to it and what's in it. *Begins bracing self*

From Meltzer..

Nancy had placed a letter in a saftey deposit box which said something along the lines of "If something happened to me, Chris did it."

He also mentions, or alludes that Chris' problems were as bad as Eddie's in terms of pills and alcohol, though no one dared mentoin it as Chris was close to only a few people backstage.Something I've been thinking about, could Daniel's health problems been caused by Benoit's drug abuse? Perhaps that Nancy blamed Chris? Each day this gets more fucked up, and yet the American media, and the Sun in this country still make my skin crawl with their bullshit.

It's not likely that Chris is to blame for Daniel's problems. I think someone said a few chapters back that it was likely from Nancy's side of the family. Either way Fragile X is completely genetic in nature.From the wiki article on Fragile X: "The fragile X syndrome is a genetic disorder caused by mutation of the FMR1 gene on the X chromosome."

If anyone in the media reads the Observer and what Meltzer's said there is true, WWE are completely fucked.Christ, it's like a powder keg. The moment someone starts seriously paying attention to what's going on, the whole thing's just going to come crashing down.

God, when are people going to zero in on the fact this business is too much? Yes, this is ridiculously more intense than other deaths, but still, all points to it stemming from the stresses of the business and the fact that so many of his friends died. Its sad that Meltz probably won't do an obit on Benoit, but I suppose it makes sense.Is Benoit in the Observer Hall of Fame?Anyway, there's something good that could come out of all this... but it requires somebody to take Vince McMahon to task for working his guys to the point of death and then claiming 'but only 5 of them died on contract' as if it cleans him of all responsibility. WWE needs to change. And if this doesn't change it, nothing ever will. And THAT would be too depressing for words, even more than this whole sad, miserable story. Because that'll mean the cycle of stars rising, falling and dying from drug related problems etc. will never fucking end.Some nasty new facts in the Observer, it appears, either way.

thats the possibly the most frightening thing I've read in a while, and if the media catch on to that...

Wonder if any of them read the Observer?

If Chris wanted to kill himself,he should have done it by himself.He is a coward and a selfish man and i and other people just cant find any way to defend him anymore.He killed a woman and a child,plain and simple.

I think at this stage, 'simple' is the last word I'd use in relation to this event.Moral judgements aside, I think everyone should watch that interview with Booker T at least once, the one done after the details had come out and he knew full well what had happened. He didn't condemn Chris even once. I'll bet you that a lot of the wrestlers who knew him don't find it such an easy decision to come to, either. That's the thing though, isn't it? We don't really know any of these people, so when they do something bad its easy to dismiss everything good about them. Hmm.Anyway, it's pretty obvious at this point that things have grown so far out of control that its virtually impossibly to predict how far this will or will not go. As J N Lister has adroitly pointed out, WWE is utterly fucked if someone questions the wellness policy. To be honest, if somebody does, that might be the catalyst for government regulation, because WWE has categorically proven it cannot be trusted to police itself. At all.

Is Debra serious? If that's all true... oh poo. Just when you think the story couldn't get any MORE out of hand, now you've got Austin's ex-wife claiming the business is rife with vice. Which it is, of course, but you just know it'll get blown out of proportion.

If he was having problems and let them brew and get worse, then it was entirely his fault. Can't blame WWE at all. Can't blame VinMahon at all. Can't blame Woman.

That's very debatable. There's a million and one ways that WWE can be seen to shoulder some of the blame. The immense pressure put on workers to hang through injuries for example, guaranteeing lives of constant pain/painkiller usage, the insane road schedule etc. etc. not to mention that its hard to think of taking time off if there's bills waiting. So I wouldn't say that's a fair comment. Anyway, I think this started with Eddie's death. Unless there's been some MAJOR family problems that have just never really seen the light of day, and he's been having difficulties with his marriage, Eddie's death was the last really traumatic event that happened, and it's not like he ever took time off to grieve properly. Anyway, I'm exhausted and have work on the morrow. I've speculated and all that jazz. Contributed or something. Good luck dealing with this, you horrible lot. And I mean that affectionately.

Well, it's been well publicized that pressure's been building for a long time and morale's been really low. Still, unless Benoit took the move to ECW REALLY personally, I can't see how he was hit any harder than anybody else. It's really eerie that this happens just when he was due for the ECW title, I might add. Similarities with Eddie's death, though not quite as ironic in that Eddie was due to win the belt that very night...

I hope Vince doesn't apologize for the tribute. It was the right thing to do, with what was known at the time, and Benoit gave a HELL of a lot to that company. It's not fair to ignore all of that, and it seems only right to let the wrestlers voice their thoughts. Even now, I doubt many of them would turn around and condemn him. I imagine the majority fall into the 'can't figure it out, he just wasn't like that' category.

Is it me or are comments about how Benoit will be having matches with Eddie or other dead wrestlers in heaven just flat out weird?

Nah, just typical 'culture speak'. No different from dead racers chasing angels or musicians serenading angels or whatever. In some ways it makes perfect sense: Wrestling's about SIMULATING violence, not actual violence, so its heaven's perfect sport. Just as much fun, no worrying sins involved. Especially since you can't get injured in heaven so there'll be no drugs problem...OK, I'm taking this too far.

Question to anyone who's familiar with Benoit's history: Was he religious?The bibles thing bugs me. If he was a devout Christian then fine, but it seems odd if he's not. And there was no mention of a bible found near his own body... a clue to his mental state?

I don't know if he was religious or not, however, by leaving a bible beside his wife and kid and not himself, perhaps he was indicating that they both deserve to go to Heaven or something...?

Yeah, something like that. And by excluding a bible from his own body indicating that he deserves to go to hell.But why I'm interested is because it's an odd thing to do for someone who doesn't believe in religion, which is why I was asking the question.

Question to anyone who's familiar with Benoit's history: Was he religious?The bibles thing bugs me. If he was a devout Christian then fine, but it seems odd if he's not. And there was no mention of a bible found near his own body... a clue to his mental state?I don't mean to play detective, just wondering if anybody knows much about his religion, if any.

I said it before, but can I have everyone's agreement that I can bring up all the "we can't judge him" comments next time a celebrity is accused of something bad in an off-topic thread? Seriously, how many of you would say the same about OJ Simpson, even though he was found not guilty by a jury of his peers?

I think a more pertinent example of this would be Randy Orton. You definitely have my agreement.

I'd say the difference is that Benoit has NEVER been seen as someone who has a dodgy personality. I can think of only a handful of events I've ever heard of where Benoit's had a bad word said about him. The biggest, ironically, concerns how he ended up with his wife in the first place.Randy Orton has been lambasted by almost everyone who's ever worked with him and later spoken his name, has been cautioned repeatedly by WWE and shown mostly that he's an incredibly arrogant prick.I think that's a big difference, personally. Benoit snapped and it led to tragedy. Randy Orton's a serial asshole.It is a fair point to make, but context is relevant.

I'll appreciate Benoit's work the same way. I don't see how the end of his life, this tragedy, in any way affects what he did in the ring or who he was in the ring. If Mozart had murdered five hundred people he'd still be one of the greatest composers of all time. Though, like Chris is destined to be, I don't think he'd be remembered for that. American wrestling has lost one of its virtuosos, you might argue one of the last great American wrestlers.The world's lost three more people in tragic circumstances.And wrestling itself's picked up yet another bruise.

Mate, nobody will be 'allowed' to feel that way about Chris. Hell, even I feel somewhat dirty by mourning Chris after what's happened. I just feel so uncomfortable with it all at the minute.

See, I think you're wrong there. Certainly there'll be some pressure to hate on Chris, we've seen evidence of that in this here thread. But I think Chris is going to be quietly ignored by the wrestling world from now on, ESPECIALLY if the report into his death opens up a massive can of worms. Lets not forget, if its decided by the media that WWE, its lifestyle, or the drugs or whatever is 'really' responsible for this, a lot of the focus of the anger is going to go away from Chris onto the big E. That's always what happens when some report or other decides something else is 'really' responsible. So in the end its down to each fan to come to terms with it their own way, either to look past the end and focus on the life, or to burn the idol and hate him to soften the blow of the deaths. You feel uncomfortable, and that's perfectly understandable, because this is one of the biggest shocks ever and there's a whole lot of issues to come to terms with. But eventually you will come to terms with it one way or the other. From what you've said, I think in the end you'll mourn Chris as much as his family. But I don't know you, and I'm just guessing.I'll fly a flag for him, no matter what anyone says.EDIT: I'm probably way too active in this thread, considering what it is, but I think getting my feelings out about this and talking with you lot is part of my own way of dealing with it. In a way I guess its led to some good, because I haven't posted on the UKFF in ages, and now I feel the need for a little digital company. I mean really, who the hell else is going to be able to share relevant feelings on the matter?

I'll appreciate Benoit's work the same way. I don't see how the end of his life, this tragedy, in any way affects what he did in the ring or who he was in the ring. If Mozart had murdered five hundred people he'd still be one of the greatest composers of all time. Though, like Chris is destined to be, I don't think he'd be remembered for that. American wrestling has lost one of its virtuosos, you might argue one of the last great American wrestlers.The world's lost three more people in tragic circumstances.And wrestling itself's picked up yet another bruise.

So little to add, so little to add.I'm stunned by this. I wonder what Meltzer's going to say in the Observer. I guess I don't need to wonder how the majority view it. Chris Benoit's entire life cast into shadow because of its tragic end, every good deed completely eclipsed by two bad ones. Sorry, I don't think or work that way. Chris showed himself to be a good man many, many times over many years. He had a lot of friends, and some very close ones. In the ring he was a peerless worker, and he literally inspired hundreds of wrestlers with his work ethic.I'll never think of him as a murderer. I'll think of him as a man who snapped one day and killed two people, people he loved and people who didn't deserve what happened to them. I believe in crimes of passion, and I don't believe that a man becomes an inhuman monster because the pressures of the world gets to him. I'll never believe Benoit's evil, or that he belongs in hell, because I don't believe in hell for one thing and I think in his life the good deeds far outweigh the bad. Whatever it was that broke him in the end, yeah, we'll never know. Maybe this is long-delayed fallout from the loss of Eddie, maybe he's been having massive trouble with his wife that led to something terrible. And maybe he killed his child because he didn't want him to grow up without parents. Believe it or not, sometimes people do horrible things out of love. This isn't the actions of the man Benoit's shown himself to be throughout his life, ergo I see no moral side to these actions. The man Benoit was suffered a breakdown of some kind, something just went click in his head, and tragedy unfolded. That's sad more than anything else.But I'll watch Benoit matches. I'll gladly watch them. I'm not going to wallow in his downfall, though I'll try as hard as the rest of you to make some sense of it all. I'll remember him the way he was when he lived, the way he was in the ring.I hope they all rest easy, and Benoit most of all, because I think he probably needs it the most.

Joe's going permanently to TNA, then?They haven't lost Danielson, have they? He's only injured. He'll be back.

I

The four way where he was in the ring with Joe was pretty good, except that I appear to be the only guy who likes the four ways.

Has Joe/Morishima happened yet?

That isn't due until the end of next year.

That sounds overly curmudgeonly to me.

 

NOAH is credited with constant ****+ main events, and most of the time that's a fair assessment. I don't think it's really any different in ROH. Just ROH's undercard is a bit worse than NOAH's, and it's top level isn't quite as good.

I'll back Jax on saying you can usually tell what matches are going to be good and what ones aren't. Short of a Lennon style assassination, I really can't imagine Dragon and McGuinness having a match lower than ***. They're simply too good at what they do.

I'm stunned they've never looked at Delirious. He's the perfect character for WWE.