Brewster McCloud

Touche.

Just now, David said:

What the actual fuck are you on about?

The nature of capitalism, how it works and why I'm in a silly argument on the Internet.

Yes, you make the stars and then fuck them off. I dont' see why this is a difficult concept to grasp.

Say you're Coke and you want people to drink Coke... hook 'em in with a product (Cena or Hogan) they like and a catchy marketing slogan. Later you can change Coke, and sales figures go down, so you don't do it again No different with Vince..The thing is still Coke.

Yeah, he must be absolutely furious. You realize he's a rich dude with or without the likes of Cena, right?

Not really. He shat the bed with Reigns and fucked around with the so-called push that we're right back to square one.

Right. Cena. Someone who will go on talkshows and present an acceptable face of the company. Someone who can speak a bit of Chinese and get away with it. He was useful, but now what's he doing? Starring in romcoms and not taking bumps, living the life of Riley. Vince doesn't want another cos the brand sells itself. Why, if you're him, wake up in the morning and think to yourself "damnit, pal, how do I make another John Cena?" 

3 minutes ago, Ironic Indie Lad said:

Well they kind of have been repeatedly trying for years though haven't they?

 

No. Daniel Bryan and Brock escaped, pretty much by accident, and you could say there was a sort of determined attempt to make Reigns something bigger than he'd ever be, but nah, man, they really haven't tried to create a new Hogan because why would they bother?

I want to like him, I really do, as much as I used to, as he was a big part of my enjoyment of the sport when he'd explain the strategies of fighters and stuff. He's absolutely capable of being smart and articulate. But now? He's such a weirdo. He'll have a great conversation with Louis Theroux and then he'll be totally cool about horrible cunts like Alex Jones. He's 50. He should have a clue by now.

So why the complete lack of attempts to build stars? Vince is doing just fine. The Network is the new star. 

4 minutes ago, Ironic Indie Lad said:

UFC and WWE make loads of money? No shit!!!!! My whole point is that the value of the business and therefore the profit going to the owners is correlated to the drawing power of the stars they have.

I'm genuinely not sure what an article from 3 years ago about UFCs sale has got to do with your point? If anything it backs up what I am saying.

UFC was valued insanely high in 2016 when it was sold. Why do you think that is? "BECAUSE OF THE STRENGTH OF THE BRAND" I hear you scream. Hold on though, actually think about this. Why was THE BRAND~! so strong at the time? Was it perhaps because in 2015, UFC had multiple McGregor and Rousey fights? Of course it was.

As an example, lets just say that Bellator somehow managed to sign up McGregor and Rousey in late 2015. Do you genuinely believe the value of the UFC would be quite so high to prospective buyers in 2016?

 

I'm not screaming anything. You start off with stars who build the brand until it becomes a... thing. You, I, and everyone else who watches WWE, UFC or even Bellator are mere pawns in the game - they get our attention and sell advertising. Of course people like McGregor and Rousey will bump up business temporarily, but that's not the long term goal - it's getting you to watch the product and not going on Instagram to post pics of your amazing dinner. I'm a mark like everyone else - I'll still watch it even if there's no Rousey present. They win. And I kind of win too, because - guess what - I like the brand.

The fact that the brands are making shitloads for the owners? Just a thought. 

Here are some facts and figures for you: https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2016/07/12/ufc-vs-wwe-how-much-more-is-real-fighting-worth/#2176424850f0

Doesn't look too shabby to me. They want the brand to sell, not some individuals who might use their name value to leave at the drop of a hat. The circus is in town, let's interrupt our pointless lives for a bit of momentary entertainment. That's the deal.

Remember Cain Vs JDS when Rogan was talking all sorts of rubbish? When he gets an idea in his massive head he just can't let it go.

48 minutes ago, Ironic Indie Lad said:

Sounds like bollocks to me there pal. What are you basing that on? The crossover from jaded former wrestling fan to MMA fan was absolutely massive. It's cooled off a bit now but when UFC had Chuck, Rand, Tito, GSP, Silva, Brock, Conor, Ronda etc. then a huge percentage of the fans were either current or former wrestling fans.

Also re: the massive amounts of money they are making. Do you realise the vast majority of their money comes from guaranteed TV money? On contracts based on the assumption that a boom period is coming when they move to fox? That's not really a reflection of the quality of the current product when every other relevant metric such as attendance, network subs etc. are way down.

Point is, wrestling/MMA are both star driven businesses. Always have been and always will be. What constitutes a star changes with the times so its stupid and ignorant to say that a massively roided up, tanned cokehead maniac would be a huge hit now just because it got over in the 80s. Hogan was the right guy at the right time, Austin was the right guy at the right time etc. There have been brief moments since (CM Punk in 2011, Daniel Bryan in 2013) where it looked like everything was falling into place but it never really materialised for a variety of reasons.

UFC business is down because they lost their biggest draws and were unable to replace them. WWE business is down because nobody there is perceived as a star.

It's not bollocks. The UfC's numbers shot up in the early days when jaded wrestling fans were curious about it, but if that's still the same then why haven't they changed? My point is that "quality" whatever that means, isn't relevant now. Vince doesn't want "stars" in the old sense of the word because he was burned badly by The Rock, Batista and Brock, to a lesser extent, leaving him in the lurch and waving contracts at them that they didn't sign. 

We complain, Dana and Vince laugh and buy bigger yachts. The WWE is not a star-driven business anymore; it's a brand driven business. 

Not replying to Chest because he doesn't want me to, but I would like to say sorry to Tiger Rick. I was being a twat. It's wrong to comment on anyone's appearance and I shouldn't have done it. I got a bit carried away, and I seriously hope my stupid remark didn't upset the stripy chap or anyone else. 

Why not warn the people who insult me and hurt my feelings? I'm a human being. 

Just now, Chest Rockwell said:

No personal attacks, thanks.

And the many times people have called me a cunt and suchlike? Tell me the rules and I'll play by 'em.

1 minute ago, David said:

It's not the "roided up lunatics" I want in particular, although they were generally fun to watch. Give me someone who's got something about them that is interesting, that's all I ask. The Ricochet guy is entertaining the first few times you watch him, but he's basically going through the same repertoire every time, and it has its place, but there has to be more on offer.

As I said above, there's really nothing that WWE offers today that isn't being done better elsewhere, be it regular television, or MMA. There's nothing that makes it stand out.

As far as money making goes, it would seriously be difficult for WWE to not make money in this era. They have zero competition for fuck sake! They know today that most pro wrestling fans either have to keep watching or turn off entirely. There's little by way of an alternative.

I'm not denying that they've positioned themselves very well as far as business goes, but I have never in my life watched a WWE PPV and thought "well, that was shit, but they;re still making bucketloads of money and that's what really matters."

I'm posting here as a fan. I don't give a flying fuck how much dough Vince banks on a yearly basis.

I don't either. Vince's bank balance troubles me not. I did stop watching wrestling, pretty much in general, about 10 years ago and especially after the Benoit incident. It just seemed time to move on from it and embrace adulthood a bit more. I'll watch the old youtube video/Wrestlemania every now and again when my inner child yells at me, but that's it. If, somehow, magically, guys like Piper and Savage were cutting mental promos and doing crazy unpredictable things, I might well go back. But it's not going to happen. It's dead to me now. 

The WWE is in competition with social media and Netflix. certainly not MMA or other wrestling companies. A small percentage of people who grew up loving the WWF 80s era gravitated towards MMA in later life, but it's not a significant number. You could throw a stone in the crowd of the next Raw and ask the guy it hits if he thinks BJ Penn should still be fighting and he will look at you with puzzlement. And perhaps anger for throwing a stone at him in the first place.

Just now, tiger_rick said:

10 minutes ago, Brewster McCloud said:

The likes of you and I, David, are utterly irrelevant.

I knew that was coming, and there you are, right on cue. Get back to your baking, fatty.

And they still make loads of money, mysteriously. 

1 minute ago, TheToeSucker said:

I just mean in general. People tend to look at the WWF as the template for wrestling.

Which it is, if any wrestling company actually wants to be profitable.

The likes of you and I, David, are utterly irrelevant. We prefer to watch UFC, plenty of others still watch WWE every week. Rinse, repeat. Vince is not having a crisis about the lack of roided up lunatics on his roster. 

5 minutes ago, TheToeSucker said:

I mean, I just like storytelling. Hogan was king at that. As was HBK. Two different bodytypes completely. I think we being in the UK means, that we have a nostalgia to the WWF, because for a lot of us, that's all we had. And Hogan and Warrior who was the drizzling shits, were ontop. The world has moved on, for sure.

Well, the best storylines ever involved Hogan - the Andre and Savage feuds. Dunno what you mean by "all we had" - I was watching WCW on ITV as a young spark. And the Warrior doesn't get the respect he deserves. A prick in real life, but a great act while it lasted. 

5 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

I imagine you do. I certainly hear old boys waxing lyrical about Mick McManus et al often enough when the topic of wrestling comes up, or when I'm at the bar after working a show.

They're not talking about the current crop, though, right? Unless you go into a pub close to the venue around showtime. Last time I overheard a conversation about wrestling in a non-wrestling context was about 20 years ago.

Isn't it just a general shift in the way the humanoids view wrestling in general now? Kayfabe died ages ago and now people just want to see brightly costumed people doing some athletic moves. It's beach volleyball. I don't think you get blokes in Boston bars saying things like "Yeah, it might be fake, but that Bruno, man, he could kick your ass" anymore. Vince has won - it's just another form of pop culture and nobody cares if the practitioners are ripped or not. Do any of them even take steroids now? There would be little point, work on that flip instead.  

If it doesn't know who its audience is then how come they're making so much money? I don't really know why anyone watches WWE anymore, habit/nostalgia/masochism I guess, it was on in an Irish pub I visited the other week and for me it was very much like watching a video game. I get the "circus is in town" aspect of the live shows, but tuning in every week when you could be watching Better Call Saul? Maybe I'm just old.