El Hijo del Mikey Jr

On 4/15/2023 at 1:23 PM, TheBurningRed said:

Yeah I can think of something similar happening in some of the threads on here lately. Strange that. 

Same old UKFF, eh?  Still a bunch of two-bob cunts who are silent in public?

2 minutes ago, LaGoosh said:

I'm glad he doesn't. I want my big fat guys to wrestle like big fat guys. He should be splatting people, not flipping about.

He doesn't even do that properly.

4 minutes ago, RedRooster said:

I totally disagree with your assessment of the tag team. Perhaps you’re misremembering, perhaps you simply weren’t as impressed with Lee as I was, but I don’t think that anyone could have filled that role. Their contrast in styles is in part what made the team work so well. 

When Lee joined AEW, I actually held the same opinion as you. While others here were praising him, I thought he was a bit shit. He won me over. He isn’t what he once was, but I don’t think he has to be - although I agree that he probably does need to remove certain moves from his repertoire for reasons you lay out.

He looked like he was at least making an effort in the tag team, which is a massive difference.  You have Swerve being Swerve and Lee could come in and be the muscle.  It worked much better than people gave it credit for at the time.

However, now, he looks terrible.  He doesn't have somebody doing the hard work.  The white hair makes his look older than Jericho.  If he's not physically able to go, he should be taken off TV.  For all of the things people slam Tony Khan for, they never seem to say that the problem is that he tolerates and even pushes people who are clearly dogging it.

NXT signed indie workers and then largely stripped them of indie gimmicks.  Strangely, they didn't make Kevin Steen dress nicely though.

AEW signed GCW and Progress' "mascots", neither of whom ever looked like a major league wrestler.  Cody and the Young Bucks called All In "the best of the indies" when promoting it and while AEW was not a perfect facsimile of All In, it was certainly following its footsteps.

After All Out 2022, I was left feeling empty because I didn't get AEW anymore.  It had changed and changed for the worse.  Then they have several weeks of TV where it felt like they were trying to get back to what made AEW interesting before and they succeeded.

I know some people love CM Punk and think he's wonderful.  His work is fine but his presence changed the promotion.  I think he changed it for the worse.

1 hour ago, RedRooster said:

I think the missing piece with the JAS is, and always has been, fan interest.

People seemed into it at the start.  The problem is, by the time Sammy joined, it was time to move on.  They're not even doing the sports entertainers gimmick properly now and it's just dragging people down.

1 hour ago, RedRooster said:

I think Keith Lee has been far better in AEW than he often gets credit for. In the case of this match, he was wrestling the 50-something-year-old Chris Jericho; which has to be considered as a factor in why it was a bit dull. Plus, sometimes wrestlers just don’t have chemistry. It happens.

However, Swerve in our Glory - tag team name aside - was an excellent team, and I’d challenge anyone to make an argument against that. It wasn’t just Strickland either. Their matches against The Acclaimed were among the best matches of 2022, and outside of that Lee has had some solid singles matches after a slightly ropey start in AEW. Perhaps, at this point, he’s best used in a tag team, but for whatever reason people seem very quick to write off his singles potential. He’s perhaps not as agile as he used to be, but he still has value.

Other people have perfectly decent matches with a 50-year-old Chris Jericho though.  In fact, he went a whole year with having perfectly decent matches with any number of people.

The whole point of Keith Lee was that he did these amazing things that nobody thought he'd be able to do.  Now he can't even leapfrog properly.  Yes, the tag team was good but that's because he didn't have to do much.  Even Hannibal Scorch would be decent in a tag team with Strickland.  He's like a sportsman who got injured and can't do what he used to do.  Instead of changing his game and being the best he can be now, he's still trying to do the old stuff.  He's basically Jack Wilshere, except he's fat and has grey hair.

Edit: OK, I need to stop quoting Stephen K Amos.

2 hours ago, TildeGuy~! said:

He never said he left Bullet Club

Also Evil is Leader of House Of Torture which is like the shit lads with the go away heat from Bullet Club, Finlay just jumped in as the new leader of Bullet Club, you attack the old leader who’s on the way out  of the company and take his place, that’s how it’s always been for the group.

EVIL has genuine heat.  It's only Dick Togo who has go away heat.

The whole thing makes no sense.  I think that's what I'm gathering. 

OK.  Can somebody explain the appeal of Keith Lee in 2023?

7 minutes ago, gmoney said:

When was it promoted as best of the indies? I don't remember that at all. I remember it being a new big promotion with Kenny Omega being one of the big stars, along with Jericho, Rhodes and Moxley. None of them were really "indie", maybe Omega but he was more a huge star from Japan.

Did you watch All In or did you sleep through 2018?

30 minutes ago, Hannibal Scorch said:

I’m no CM Punk fan, but I’ll pull you up here. He’s clearly not a terrible human being. In an industry full of sex pests, murderers and rapists you have plenty of candidates for terrible humans.

Problematic? Sure. But I think from the things he was doing backstage (leaving Starbucks gift cards for the low and mid card talents, offering advice etc) to buying Danhausen his dream comic book after getting injured again recently shows he’s got a good heart. He also screwed over his best mate and also caused a backstage brawl and suspensions because he’s thin skinned. 
 

I also don’t believe he’s their patron saint. He was as important as Danielson and Adam Cole when they were brought in. It did add some prestige getting him there, but I don’t feel he was given any better treatment then any of those other names. How he doesn’t fit into a wrestling show though I’m struggling with. Other then because you don’t like him, how doesn’t he fit in?

As I've noted here before, I believe he's a covert narcissist.  Have you ever heard him talk about people who he feels has wronged him?  He has a complete lack of empathy that is frankly scary.  You know what this type of narcissists do?  They do nice things to carry favour with other people because they want people to know them as a nice guy.  Given what I see him as, I think he's a terrible person.  Arch manipulator.

I honestly didn't think anybody would disagree with the idea that the guy who walked out of WWE, whose name was chanted very clearly at WWE events until AEW came into being was AEW's patron saint.  It's just obvious.  He's the poster child for everything anti-WWE.

AEW is a weird promotion.  It was supposed to be the best of the indies, except nobody could agree on what that was.  Then they brought in WWE guys who were being misused and they got the best run of Brodie Lee's career.  So it was best of the indies, some guys you like from Japan, the guys who never got their due or to express themselves in WWE.   It got away from that and we now feel like we're somewhat back to it.  What's missing?  CM Punk.  Somehow the ultimate guy who didn't express himself just ruined the whole overall aesthetic IMO.  He made AEW not feel like AEW.

However, it increasingly drifted away from the best of the indies towards something else.  

Finally caught up on the rest of Sakura Genesis.

1. Robbie Eagles was on a mission to remind people how good he is.
2. Shota Umino's tribute to Tanahashi is moribund.  He has less going on in the eyes than Yoshi-Hashi. Umino is the next  Yoshi-Hashi.
3. I don't care for the NJ tag match house style but the tag title match was good.  They are the anti-Umino.

2 hours ago, Loki said:

I agree with a ton of your post, and there's some really interesting analysis here.

However.. the demise of WWE TV due to falling ratings has been long foretold, since I've been reading about it on the internet.  And yet every time they sign a contract it's for more money.

What you need to take into account is the changing market.  Live network audiences have been falling since the invention of TiVo across all television.  There's one thing that has remained near the top of the pile in terms of relative ratings, and that's live sports - and wrestling has followed that trend.  Yes its ratings decline, but slower than everyone else.

As I understand it, wrestling tv content remains attractive to networks because it's relatively cheap and provides ratings constantly week in and week out, 52 weeks a year.  There's very little content like it elsewhere.

Now - if ad revenue isn't matching licensing, and that is the only part of the financial deal between say Peacock and WWE, then yeah I can see their contract being smaller next time.  But given WWE's recent huge valuation via its sale, I think we're not seeing all the factors that network execs are seeing.

 

Wrestling as "live sports" is an absolute con.   It's a premise that is not borne out in reality but that hasn't stopped them from saying it.  WWE has fallen far faster than the percentage of those people cutting the cord.  WWE is only cheap TV because they're giving TV shows movie-level budgets now.  It's not WWE vs. dramas or the NBA, it's WWE vs. reality shows, be they reality soaps or reality gameshows.  Raw has regularly taken beatings in the ratings from the Love & Hip Hop franchise.  Nobody is going to convince me that Cardi B isn't a bigger star than Roman Reigns.

If wrestling was attractive to networks, MLW and Impact would have decent TV deals but they don't.  It doesn't drive ad revenue like a reality show of a similar viewership.  Now, I understand, these networks lose money on the NFL but they can sell that as a loss leader because it brings eyeballs to the network and they can use that to get people to watch other shows.  I assume this is why Tony has been holding WBD as tightly as he possibly can because there aren't TV deals out there.

What may help WWE is the writer's strike.  The last writers strike gave rise to Donald Trump so hopefully they find some sort of resolution.

I might be wrong, I probably am wrong.  However, if WWE double their TV rights, it makes no sense based on how poorly they've performed.

1 hour ago, Devon Malcolm said:

That's not narrowing it down in AEW though, is it. The second part is more relevant if you're an AEW fan.

Who else is on the terrible human list?

7 minutes ago, Tsurutagun said:

Just watched the San Jose NJPW show on YouTube on their channel and after watching Jay White get kicked out of Bullet Club by Finlay, seeing Jay set up BC Gold has got me thinking that Jay is wrestling's version of George Costanza. "If you turn up in the Bullet Club shirt, does it mean I wasn't kicked out of the group?"

Plus Juice Robinson said he'd left the Bullet Club at some point too.

Also, and I will say this until I am blue in the face, EVIL is still the co-leader of the Bullet Club.

1 hour ago, Devon Malcolm said:

Why on earth would people not want him back? It's not like your football team signing Carlton Palmer. Even if you think he's a twat, which he is, just think of all the drama and unintentional hilarity his return causes, in the short or long term. It's wrestling.

I think he's a terrible human being and he doesn't sustain my long-term interest.  I like AEW and, despite being their patron saint, I don't think he fits into the show.

49 minutes ago, FUM said:

I think WWE continually being on a ratings slide but yet managing record financials disproves any correlation between ratings and PPV buys alone solely meaning success. I do realise I missed out the word “alone” from my original post - now amended.

Things are not as reactive as they used to be. If you're buying time and getting an ad share or you're reliant on getting people into buildings then it's a very different world.  New Japan's business is not the same as WWE's because they're still trying to draw houses.

WWE are putting up record financials because they sold their TV and streaming rights for way over the odds for a long-term period.  They have PPVs but they're not a significant part of the business model because virtually everybody else pays for Peacock or the WWE Network.  They traded potential money away for guaranteed money and have made out like bandits.

However, if you're a content factory like WWE are and AEW aspires to be, everything is based on engagement.  On TV, engagement is still measured by ratings.  When they sell ads and when they sell a show to a network, it's still focused on what rating they'll get in the demo.  That's the measure and it's only changed because they're getting contracts for five years based on the ratings they did two years before.

Those record sums were made off three massive lies.  Firstly, WWE is "pro sports".  It's not.  It's a live show and, yes, people want to watch it live but it's entertainment.  It's in the same category as reality shows except virtually every reality show is much cheaper to produce and, by extension, cheaper to purchase for networks.

Secondly, that the ratings downturns in 2017/18 were a blip.  They sold those ratings based on how they did in 2016, where the Raw ratings they were selling things based on were double what they were by the time they hit Fox.

Thirdly, that WWE draws robust ad revenues.  This ties everything together.  There have been two articles since the start of the year that suggest Fox are losing serious money on WWE. A network needs to bring in more in ad revenue than they spend out in licensing fees.  The profit margin is generally somewhere between 10-25%.  Smackdown brings in somewhere in the region of 63m per year in ad revenue, which is at the lowest rate per minute of any network show at $47,000.

The contract is backloaded so WWE earn more now than they did year 1 but it averages out to 205m per year.  So Fox are losing around 140m per year on Smackdown.  They're getting poor ad rates, in part because they're wrestling, in part because they getting poor ratings.  Not poor compared to last year but poor compared to 2019 and poor compared to 2016 Raw.

So, ratings might not matter now but they matter for the next contract.  Based on these figures, WWE should be getting 50m per year from Fox, not 205m.  The MLS Apple+ deal would suggest that gravy train has clearly come to an end but most people think WWE is going to double their TV rights.  The only way that happens is if they find another mark to buy their "live sports" con.

To bring this back to AEW, the higher the ratings, the more guaranteed money they can get from WBD.  I can take or leave a lot of what AEW does but they've put on the best TV wrestling matches ever.  For a workrate junkie, they are the promised land and a big increase can only help that promised land to survive and thrive.

CM Punk is hardly Hogan to WCW.

The difference he made was one big PPV (All Out 2021) and then seven weeks of serious ratings movement.  Year over year (compared to pandemic numbers), it was over 100k in the demo but those seven weeks compared to the seven relatively hot weeks before he debuted was about 60,000.  After that, the ratings tailed off to where they were before he arrived.  I went looking for evidence to show how he was a massive difference maker to prove he was worth the hassle and I didn't find it so came to the conclusion that he wasn't.  Maybe he comes back and does seven wonderful weeks of ratings again but the real problem is when he inevitably leaves again.

Despite the narrative, AEW bucked cable TV trends and had year-on-year growth for the first three years.  It wasn't much but an 8.3% increase in the demo is not insubstantial, especially when Smackdown was down 20%, Raw was down 25% and NXT was down 40%.  However, the irony of Mr Drug Free is that he's like a heroin addiction.  The highs are higher but now you're off it, your life is in shambles. They're down 15% in the demo and the solution being proposed is to get back on drugs.

They need to find a new star and rebuild, not go back to a guy who will be good in the short term but cause more damage to your promotion than he's worth.

AEW was perfectly fine without CM Punk.

When he takes a dramatic bump, my arsehole goes because I think that this has to be the bump that cripples him.

Vickie was hated by Eddie's family.  She didn't take care of her own daughter when she was at her most vulnerable and her daughter is clearly resentful and suffering to this day.  However, from the way Shaul makes it sound, Sherilynn's also taking her mental illnesses out on others, which is really not cool.

Hopefully this gives AEW the political cover to get rid of her.

2 hours ago, Fatty Facesitter said:

👍 Orange Cassidy/Buddy - One teeny, tiny bug bear - Mr Cassidy’s hand was already injured…I’m sure he’s right handed and it was instinct, but you could argue he shouldn’t have gone for a big right hand if it’s…well, fucked? But they told a great story and the execution in terms of the moves and transitions were great, plus it’s an interesting new direction for an Orange Cassidy match, having to sell throughout and elicit sympathy as opposed to laughter from the crowd. Pulled it off in spades (shades?). 

Don't be a selling pervert.

2 hours ago, Fatty Facesitter said:

👎 Feels impossible for me to invest in Jeff Hardy - every time he comes back and earns our good graces, the wheels eventually come off for him. A nice moment for the live crowd and he looked quite lean, but for me this is one return too many for him and harsh as it may sound, he’ll be gone again in a matter of months if not weeks, either due to injury or another DUI. Go and enjoy time with your family and give it a rest, lad. 

There are certain people that Tony has some weird loyalty to.  Jeff Hardy, Jay Lethal, Brian Cage.  Just move them on.  If that means you lose Matt Hardy, well then he can go too.

If they hadn't asked him to work injured, they could have terminated him for gross insubordination or whatever the American term would be.  But they asked him to work injured so he has them over a barrel somewhat.

They don't want him to leave for WWE so just say that you won't be using him again and you'll pay him to sit out unless WWE or Phil himself want to buy out the contract.

New Japan has done a reasonable job shuffling the Unit deck but Bullet Club is still a mess with the divisions.

2 hours ago, BomberPat said:

People will try and run, but between promoters and venues in this country, there's no way people will get sufficiently on the same page to do a "Wrestlemania weekend" style run of shows. I wouldn't be surprised if PROGRESS move their show to another day that weekend. 

Are you telling me that the secret Facebook group is utterly ineffective?

11 hours ago, kamicazze said:

Anyone envision some stuff in the week leading up to it or potentially ROH being over as well?

It's unthinkable to me that somebody won't run something somewhere. It was hardly WrestleMania weekend in Cardiff tbh.  However, there was still ICW, Progress, TNT and a couple of other shows I can't remember.  I booked my hotel from Friday until Monday because there's going to be something to do, even if it means going and seeing old friends.

I think you're being kind by saying it looks like a mobile game.